plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

We're on the road for the next 10 days. I need to get a better handle on these late 78 system. And what parts can be found as to repair, or replacement components for us lonely late 78 owners. Bob Dunahugh

________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2017 7:45 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: RE: plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

Scott. Our problem is that there just not a lot of 78's out there that were built after Dec of 77.

________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2017 7:30 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: RE: plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

There's a saying about bringing home the bacon. I had miss piggy everywhere under the GMC, and Linda's Chevy Uplander. Took the exhaust systems off of both. It's common around DeKalb Ill. to hit domestic pigs according to the highway patrol. If an air ride system ever went down. I'd loose a $1000 aluminum ramp. And any way to get Linda, and her power wheelchair even out. I always say it's like Apollo 13 for our GMC. Failure is NOT an option. And our last 78 GMC went 52000 miles, and 38 states. And never left us to the side of the road. This one needs to do the same thing. An with this GMC. It's been 2 Chinese fuel pumps to get off to a bad start.. Bob Dunahugh

________________________________

I have 4 and 3/4 inches of ground clearance just ahead of my rear tires at best. Thus I can't have any air system that lowers from my maximum ride height. So far I've had no issues in 7 years of hitting anything except a very large Coon, and a pig. Both on interstates in Ill. Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale

________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2017 12:14 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

I always have my bags turned off by the isolation valves when on the road. I just need to slightly tilt the drive in shower floor to drain. So two compressors, and 2 solenoid valves to low. Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale
 
Dang I ignore the forum for a few days and look at all the fun I missed.

I do have a EL4 ( I call it MicroLevel ) just about complete, I'm testing it.

It uses real ride height sensors and an accelerometer to level in the campground.

It's quite complex and I'm being kinda a chicken about releasing it.

as far as your desire for split second adjustments....

1. Uh no.
2. Why?
3. Are you crazy?

My system adjusts quickly on start then when it reaches height adjusts very very slowly. I don't believe in changing the suspension during normal manuvers, it should not adjust on a cloverleaf for example. Yes it would be 'cool' to have it hooked up to a GPS map and adjust the suspension to have it lean into the corner as you enter a curve, but really? This isn't an indy car.

Now if you want to fund the development, I think $400,000 would be a good start for something of that complexity, then more for testing. and it would sell for $3000 or more.

________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Scott Nutter
Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2017 5:16:49 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

I personally like the EL11 system " Philosophy " the best. But I would like it to correct to real time conditions quicker. With all the technology
advances, why can't we find a sensor that uses radio altimeter or even laser distances to measure from the frame to the ground? And self adjust with
corrections in a split second? Or a buffered period of time. Will probably need extreamly durable pumps, and even a air chamber for quicker
inflations. And have it run during all driving segments?
And be nice on the comments... I only drive them. I don't engineer the recommendations!!
Scott
Happy Independence Day!!
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater.
Houston, Texas

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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
OK, I'm back!
I hope I didn't pee off too many people!! If I did I'm sorry...

Keith, will your system regulate more than 100psi? What is max press? Reaction times on slopes or uneven stretches? Air chamber? Wind side loading?
I like what I see, but I'm not doing to float $400.000 to see it through.....
I will pay for gas if you need a test bed.

But I would like to talk to you. I'm off till Monday.
Scott. Cell 858-212-8760
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater.
Houston, Texas
 
Keith,
I just read question #3.
Answer is absolutely yes!
I like you already!!!
Scott.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater.
Houston, Texas
 
Question 3 was rhetorical, you own a GMC. It's a given that youre crazy ?

My system uses the existing compressor and tank, unless it's an EL2 in which case you might need to add a tank. The valves are similar to those in the EL1, but there are only 4 of them. any solenoid valves can be used, even the 200psi ones if you believe they are necessary ( theyre not ), yes it will go over 200 PSI, but thats probably not necessary unless you're seriously overloaded.

Well maybe for campground leveling. it has no concept of pressure, only height.

Reaction time depends on the rate and magnitude of change, a large change will result in a faster response.

Typically it adjusts very little to keep the suspension quiet.

If you want active suspension management, it's not happening here.

You have to remember, the power level was a mechanical design. It had 1 fixed delay. I have a CPU that runs a state machine and multiple stages of filtering so it can react differently depending on the situation. So on startup it will reach level quickly, but once there switch to a longer filter so it changes less. This reduces hunting and unnecessary height adjustments so the compressor runs less and the suspension stays quiet.

I need to stop playing and get this thing up for sale I guess !

________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Scott Nutter
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2017 8:33:24 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

Keith,
I just read question #3.
Answer is absolutely yes!
I like you already!!!
Scott.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater.
Houston, Texas

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Keith,
When you get this system on the market, I'll be ready.
I'm sure my son won't mind me spending more of his inheritance!!
I agree that 200 psi is very much overkill. But the ability to go 150 psi would be nice.
The highest I've taken my EL11 was to 120psi, and that was for extreme campsite leveling. I'm at 90 psi on the drivers side, and 92 psi on the pax
side fully loaded to get perfect rear ride height.
Scott.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater.
Houston, Texas
 
When I get to 100 or 105 psi, my suspension tops out, using factory bags.

Rick "advantages of a light coach" Denney

> Keith,
> When you get this system on the market, I'll be ready.
> I'm sure my son won't mind me spending more of his inheritance!!
> I agree that 200 psi is very much overkill. But the ability to go 150 psi
> would be nice.
> The highest I've taken my EL11 was to 120psi, and that was for extreme
> campsite leveling. I'm at 90 psi on the drivers side, and 92 psi on the pax
> side fully loaded to get perfect rear ride height.
> Scott.
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final
> drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater.
> Houston, Texas
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
 
Justin,

Could you provide a bit more detail regarding installing the new valves, why did you need the 100 ft of line, Tees, and solenoids?

Any Phootos?

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Brady

Well I got new height valves put in yesterday and man they sure are nice :d

FYI OEM available here for a good price.
http://heightcontrolvalve.com/Delco_King_of_the_Road_K706301_Height_Control_Valve_GMC_Motorhome.htm

All it took was another 100 ft of air line, 2 push connect Tees and 2 solenoids.

Justin
 
Rob,
I had previously removed all of my air lines during the rebuild.
In order to use height valves you need 3 air lines running to the back, I only had one, so I had to add 2 more on each side for a total of roughly 100
feet of new line.

Solenoids and tees were used for the same reason. They were removed originally
--
Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455
 
Just curious, Justin: Your photo indicates that you mounted all 4 solenoid
valves up front, thus necessitating the triple air lines. Would it not
have been easier, cheaper, and less problem prone to have mounted two
valves on each side near the rear wheels?

Ken H.

> Rob,
> I had previously removed all of my air lines during the rebuild.
> In order to use height valves you need 3 air lines running to the back, I
> only had one, so I had to add 2 more on each side for a total of roughly 100
> feet of new line.
>
> Solenoids and tees were used for the same reason. They were removed
> originally
> --
 
Ken,
It would, however I believe the valves will last longer and perform better mounted inside. There's a lot of spray in the fender wells.

I also wanted to keep them close to the other valves to ease service, all of which are mounted up front on a removable plate with compressor and tank.

If you meant inside, there's really just nowhere in my floor plan to put them and still be able to access them if needed.
So I opted for longer air line runs. I haven't had a single leak yet, and if I do it's a simple 30 second fix to cut out the bad section of line and
add a new one.
--
Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455
 
Keith,

From my understanding of the Powerlevel, Electrolevel, and Electrolevel II systems and what I've read below it appears that you have in fact upgraded the system.

Here's my off the top of my head review of the three systems from a control aspect.

Powerlevel is a pneumatically controlled system that is really simple and I like it because of that. However, detractors are correct when they note the amount of tubing in the system as well as the dead band and time delay before it reacts.

Electrolevel removed the tank and tubing but added a lot of electrical complications but used the same height control valves with the same dead band and time delay before it reacts.

Electrolevel II replaced the height control valves with an electronic version which reacts quicker and less dead band.

I assume when you note you are playing you are in fact testing the unit on your coach, if you are happy with the way the system performs I would suggest selling a limited number of units to get more time on them and limit your exposure should something need adjustment.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Keith V
Sent: Friday, July 7, 2017 12:14 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

Question 3 was rhetorical, you own a GMC. It's a given that youre crazy 😊

My system uses the existing compressor and tank, unless it's an EL2 in which case you might need to add a tank. The valves are similar to those in the EL1, but there are only 4 of them. any solenoid valves can be used, even the 200psi ones if you believe they are necessary ( theyre not ), yes it will go over 200 PSI, but thats probably not necessary unless you're seriously overloaded.

Well maybe for campground leveling. it has no concept of pressure, only height.

Reaction time depends on the rate and magnitude of change, a large change will result in a faster response.

Typically it adjusts very little to keep the suspension quiet.

If you want active suspension management, it's not happening here.

You have to remember, the power level was a mechanical design. It had 1 fixed delay. I have a CPU that runs a state machine and multiple stages of filtering so it can react differently depending on the situation. So on startup it will reach level quickly, but once there switch to a longer filter so it changes less. This reduces hunting and unnecessary height adjustments so the compressor runs less and the suspension stays quiet.

I need to stop playing and get this thing up for sale I guess !
 
Rob,

My logical mind says the time delay and dead band have to be from the
viscosity of the special
oil used in the height control valves. IIRC, Russ Harms had to purchase a
gallon of it and Dave
Linzi then bought the extra as he rebuilds the height control valves. Why
wouldn't a different
viscosity of the same type of oil change the dead band and time delay? Just
thinking!

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rob Mueller"
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2017 5:42 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height
sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

> Keith,
>
> From my understanding of the Powerlevel, Electrolevel, and Electrolevel II
> systems and what I've read below it appears that you have in fact upgraded
> the system.
>
> Here's my off the top of my head review of the three systems from a
> control aspect.
>
> Powerlevel is a pneumatically controlled system that is really simple and
> I like it because of that. However, detractors are correct when they note
> the amount of tubing in the system as well as the dead band and time delay
> before it reacts.
>
> Electrolevel removed the tank and tubing but added a lot of electrical
> complications but used the same height control valves with the same dead
> band and time delay before it reacts.
>
> Electrolevel II replaced the height control valves with an electronic
> version which reacts quicker and less dead band.
>
> I assume when you note you are playing you are in fact testing the unit on
> your coach, if you are happy with the way the system performs I would
> suggest selling a limited number of units to get more time on them and
> limit your exposure should something need adjustment.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Keith
> V
> Sent: Friday, July 7, 2017 12:14 AM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height
> sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.
>
> Question 3 was rhetorical, you own a GMC. It's a given that youre crazy 😊
>
> My system uses the existing compressor and tank, unless it's an EL2 in
> which case you might need to add a tank. The valves are similar to those
> in the EL1, but there are only 4 of them. any solenoid valves can be used,
> even the 200psi ones if you believe they are necessary ( theyre not ), yes
> it will go over 200 PSI, but thats probably not necessary unless you're
> seriously overloaded.
>
> Well maybe for campground leveling. it has no concept of pressure, only
> height.
>
> Reaction time depends on the rate and magnitude of change, a large change
> will result in a faster response.
>
> Typically it adjusts very little to keep the suspension quiet.
>
> If you want active suspension management, it's not happening here.
>
> You have to remember, the power level was a mechanical design. It had 1
> fixed delay. I have a CPU that runs a state machine and multiple stages of
> filtering so it can react differently depending on the situation. So on
> startup it will reach level quickly, but once there switch to a longer
> filter so it changes less. This reduces hunting and unnecessary height
> adjustments so the compressor runs less and the suspension stays quiet.
>
> I need to stop playing and get this thing up for sale I guess !
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
> Rob,
>
> My logical mind says the time delay and dead band have to be from the viscosity of the special oil used in the height control valves. IIRC, Russ
> Harms had to purchase a gallon of it and Dave Linzi then bought the extra as he rebuilds the height control valves. Why wouldn't a different
> viscosity of the same type of oil change the dead band and time delay? Just thinking!
>
> Gary Kosier
> 77PB w/500Cad
> Newark, Ohio

Gary,

Having worked on lots of mechanical control systems, I can tell that you are just about exactly one-half right.
The dead band is almost entirely a function of system components and their dimensions and specifics....
The delay will be largely a function of the damping fluid used. This assuming no physical dimensions have changed.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Gary,

I had a quick squiz at X-7525 / Rear Suspension / Page 4-25 / Time Delay Check.

"A 4 to 18 second delay from the closing of one valve to the opening of the other is recommended."

It calls for 5.5 cc +/- 0.25cc of silicone fluid (3,000 Centistokes viscosity @ 25°C) and there are no adjustments therefore your "thinking" makes sense to me.

I found this 2,000 Centistokes fluid:

https://www.hudy.net/xhudy/products/proddesc.php?prod_id=632&kategoria=0

Let's have a chat with Dave about this at Elkhart - if either one of us can remember!

My knee is doing well, last session with the physio-terrorist on Monday! ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Gary Kosier
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 8:27 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

Rob,

My logical mind says the time delay and dead band have to be from the viscosity of the special oil used in the height control valves. IIRC, Russ Harms had to purchase a gallon of it and Dave Linzi then bought the extra as he rebuilds the height control valves. Why wouldn't a different viscosity of the same type of oil change the dead band and time delay? Just thinking!

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio
 
Thanks, Rob, It's nice to know I can guess right on some non-electronic
question.
Me too! I'm also going for an evaluation with the physical therapy folks on
Monday.
If I pass, they'll turn me loose. They've told me I've been ahead of
schedule so far.
And when I leave their, I go for another C-T Scan. This getting old is such
fun!

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rob Mueller"
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2017 9:17 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height
sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

> Gary,
>
> I had a quick squiz at X-7525 / Rear Suspension / Page 4-25 / Time Delay
> Check.
>
> "A 4 to 18 second delay from the closing of one valve to the opening of
> the other is recommended."
>
> It calls for 5.5 cc +/- 0.25cc of silicone fluid (3,000 Centistokes
> viscosity @ 25°C) and there are no adjustments therefore your "thinking"
> makes sense to me.
>
> I found this 2,000 Centistokes fluid:
>
> https://www.hudy.net/xhudy/products/proddesc.php?prod_id=632&kategoria=0
>
> Let's have a chat with Dave about this at Elkhart - if either one of us
> can remember!
>
> My knee is doing well, last session with the physio-terrorist on Monday!
> ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Gary
> Kosier
> Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 8:27 AM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height
> sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.
>
> Rob,
>
> My logical mind says the time delay and dead band have to be from the
> viscosity of the special oil used in the height control valves. IIRC,
> Russ Harms had to purchase a gallon of it and Dave Linzi then bought the
> extra as he rebuilds the height control valves. Why wouldn't a different
> viscosity of the same type of oil change the dead band and time delay?
> Just thinking!
>
> Gary Kosier
> 77PB w/500Cad
> Newark, Ohio
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
> Keith,
>
> From my understanding of the Powerlevel, Electrolevel, and Electrolevel II systems and what I've read below it appears that you have in fact
> upgraded the system.
>
> Here's my off the top of my head review of the three systems from a control aspect.
>
> Powerlevel is a pneumatically controlled system that is really simple and I like it because of that. However, detractors are correct when they
> note the amount of tubing in the system as well as the dead band and time delay before it reacts.
>
> Electrolevel removed the tank and tubing but added a lot of electrical complications but used the same height control valves with the same dead
> band and time delay before it reacts.
>
> Electrolevel II replaced the height control valves with an electronic version which reacts quicker and less dead band.
>
> I assume when you note you are playing you are in fact testing the unit on your coach, if you are happy with the way the system performs I would
> suggest selling a limited number of units to get more time on them and limit your exposure should something need adjustment.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

Rob
I have been running one version or another of this system for about 3 seasons, I've spun the controller twice and found better height sensors (
cheaper and more available )
I absolutely need to get some out there, see what people think, not arguing that.

Micro level replaces the dumb electronics with a microprocessor and real height measurement. It adds campground leveling, a hand held remote control,
and easier setting of ride height.
--
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
69 Vette
29 Dodge
 
Keith,

WOW, what your system does leaves the OEM system for dead!

When The Blue Streak was converted to right hand drive the Powerlevel dashboard control valves were moved and additional line was
spliced in. The system leaks big time. I was going to rebuild the Powerlevel system but I think I'll just install one of your
systems.

I'm number two in the line after Scott N.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Keith V
Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 5:32 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

Rob

I have been running one version or another of this system for about 3 seasons, I've spun the controller twice and found better
height sensors (cheaper and more available).

I absolutely need to get some out there, see what people think, not arguing that.

Micro level replaces the dumb electronics with a microprocessor and real height measurement. It adds campground leveling, a hand
held remote control, and easier setting of ride height.
--
Keith
 
Rob,

Cool and you only need two air lines running to the bags, one for each side.

I plan on selling the controller for those that want to build their own system, full on kits or anything in between

________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Rob Mueller
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 6:49:42 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

Keith,

WOW, what your system does leaves the OEM system for dead!

When The Blue Streak was converted to right hand drive the Powerlevel dashboard control valves were moved and additional line was
spliced in. The system leaks big time. I was going to rebuild the Powerlevel system but I think I'll just install one of your
systems.

I'm number two in the line after Scott N.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Keith V
Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 5:32 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] plan B. I really don't need my ride height sensors/valves anyway. Just simple.

Rob

I have been running one version or another of this system for about 3 seasons, I've spun the controller twice and found better
height sensors (cheaper and more available).

I absolutely need to get some out there, see what people think, not arguing that.

Micro level replaces the dumb electronics with a microprocessor and real height measurement. It adds campground leveling, a hand
held remote control, and easier setting of ride height.
--
Keith

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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
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