Converting to LiFePO4 batteries and Sailor Man's LiFePO4 Build

[sailor man]

Sailor,
That is an interesting device. I don't know if you ever programed the Balmar regulators. They were fun.....
I am a little concerned about the power capability of the poly-V belt. I got to a place that even double Vs could stay with the horsepower the big alternator wanted. Fortunately, I could turn down the max current. The owner did accept this as opposed to adding yet another belt to the main engine.
Matt

Matt
Victron BMV-712

I spoke with the owner and engineer for the WaveSpeed regulator for over 30 minutes. He told me that he worked for Balmar for about 20 years, so he probably designed their regulators. I am guessing that he started WakeSpeed because they did not want to go forward for a more advanced product.
However, that means that the WakeSpeed regulator and the Balmar alternators are very closely bonded together and I expect that this arrangement will provide much better performance.

In order to monitor the performance of the battery system, I am installing (2) Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitors (one for the 12v and one for the 48v). Probably could has used just one and switched back and forth between them, but zI wanted to see the information sids by side. The BMV-712 has built in bluetooth

With the Bluetooth capability, the BMV-712 will be able to talk to the iPhone, iPad, MacBook Pro and all Victron products.
The other Victron products to be installed are
(2) Victron MPPT 150/100 Smart Solar Charge Controlle
(1) Victron MPPT 75/15 Smart Solar Charge Controller
(2) Victron Temperature Sensor for BMV-712
(1) Victron MultiPlus II 2x 120 Inverter/Charger
(1) Victron MultiPlus II 48/3000/35-50 120v Inverter Charger

There are other products for different manufacturers that are part of the system:
(1) MasterVolt DC Master 48/12-20 - 48vdc to 12vdc Converter (could be another one)
(1) Sterling Ultra (12v/70A) Battery to (48v/15A) Battery Charger
(1) Sterling Ultra (12v/70A) Battery to (12v/70A) Battery Charger (for lead/acid DieHard starting battery)
(2) Sterling Remote for Battery to Battery Charger
(2) Battery Guardian AutoSelect (BGA)
(1) Firman 3042 Generator DF - 2700 watt on LPG or 5400 watt if paralleled to a second one I have

 

[Matt Colie]

I think that is well advised. Trying to switch it has the very real potential to screw things up in the totalizators.
With all the refits to performance cruisers I did, I only put the full monitor on the house bank as the main engine bank was left isolated totally.
I like the BT idea, but that was after I retired.
Matt

 

[sailor man]

I have mocked up 1/2 of the (8) 12v 100 ah batteries. There will be another (4) batteries, in reverse facing these. The is another (2) of these batteries located on the new Aluminum battery that located in the engine compartment.
I could only find 8” manufactured 2/0 battery cables, but there were no dimensioned drawings, so I had to mock things up before installation.
The 8” dimension was actually a center to center dimension. These batteries, if placed highly together, have a 6.91” center to center dimension. This required to install the batteries with a 1.09” space between them. The overall length of the (4) batteries and the (3) spaces was still within the physical limits of the storage space under the settee.
To accomodate and permanently control the spacing, 1”x1” Cumaru wood strip were used. These strip have a 75 year life span when exposed to the outside elements, resist wood boring insects and have a Class A flame spread rating. They used to sell a pack of 100 at about $1.00 each from Advantage Lumber. They have mills in Florida (Sarasota), New York, North Carolina and California.
The cables have to be fastened with a precise torque, so check that out.
The Remy Battery “flag” battery post boots are installed and do not require modification. I hate exposed metal on battery cables and posts.
To connect to additional batteries in parallel, only the red lead on the left battery will be connected. The additional (4) batteries are rotated 180°, facing these and only the black cable will be connected to the last one. In an arrangement of multiple batteries connected in parallel, the positive and negative cables should never be connected to a single battery.

 

[SteveW]

Sailor Man !!

Thank you so much for your detailed and precise postings. I'm considering a similar project - although not-at-all as comprehensive. Just Lithium batteries for the house systems (mostly refrigeration) and solar eventually... And Victron componentry.

I've been considering Battle Born's 270AH GC3 battery offering. Any particular reason that you chose to stay with their 100AH GC2 product ??

Tanks again,
Steve W

 

[Matt Colie]

That is pretty, but I might have done the way we did on ships E-banks with clean copper strapping. We did cover it so a falling conductive something couldn't short the bank.

You have to go with what you can get today, but have you heard about the next big battery? Supposed to be cheaper and better than LiFePo4, but aren't they all. (I'll believe it when I see it and can buy them.)
Matt

 

[sailor man]

Sailor Man !!

Thank you so much for your detailed and precise postings. I'm considering a similar project - although not-at-all as comprehensive. Just Lithium batteries for the house systems (mostly refrigeration) and solar eventually... And Victron componentry.

I've been considering Battle Born's 270AH GC3 battery offering. Any particular reason that you chose to stay with their 100AH GC2 product ??

Tanks again,
Steve W

Steve
I am actually installing (4) BattleBorn GC3 275AH batteries in my coach. They will be connected in series to provide the 48v dc I need to power the (2) YMGI 12,000 btuh mini splits. I am installing (2) of these in this orientation in the generator compartment with the top one flipped 180° to get the red and black together.
I am assuming that you will also be locating these in the generator compartment, but you do not have to flip the top one because you are using them for a 12v house battery bank.
Just one caution. Do not make the load connection via a single battery. Attach the red to the first battery in line and the black to the last battery in line.
Most people make this mistake and the battery with the red and black cables attached to the load become the most favored for an electron with the shortest cable length and fewest connectors producing the least resistance. Over time, this imbalance causes this battery to be the first to weaken and fail. It is then replaced by another battery that does not match the remaining batteries and the imbalance multiplies.
I see this all the time.
GMC Motorhomes are just like boats and the physical spaces that can be used for batteries are constrained in volume, dimension, location and configuration. What will fit and what can you maneuver to get it into position? That is why I made cardboard mockups of the Lithonics batteries to make certain I could get them into the space. It is much more difficult to get equipment into place than when they are first built and many engineers do not consider how to maintain components or replace them.
I could not fit enough GC3 batteries to match the capacity of (10) GC2 batteries.
I really like the GC3 batteries as they can be placed in any orientation and can be fastened down in multiple ways. I am particular fond that there are two locations where one can thread belts through and tension. That is the way I am strapping mine down.
I can only fit (2) in the generator compartment with the Firman 3042 generator. The other (2) will be located under the bed with the Victron MultiPlus II inverter/charger.

 

[sailor man]

That is pretty, but I might have done the way we did on ships E-banks with clean copper strapping. We did cover it so a falling conductive something couldn't short the bank.

You have to go with what you can get today, but have you heard about the next big battery? Supposed to be cheaper and better than LiFePo4, but aren't they all. (I'll believe it when I see it and can buy them.)
Matt

Matt
I searched for tinned busbars that fit and I could cover with shrink tube. I found some, but not any that would fit properly. This was the best solution I could come up with.
I am anal, so I would have preferred to expand the space between the batteries so the cable could be perfectly straightened, but the covers required them to be bowed.
I could not bear to see untinned copper bar turn green over time.
I will be 82 in January and the clock is ticking. With all the clog ups in the supply chain, I go with what I get get the soonest, not the one that is the cheapest that may never arrive.
By the way, Cliff tells me that the Balmar 12v alternator and WakeSpeed regulator have been hooked up to (6) of the BattleBorn 100ah batteries and the charging is working. I can't wait to get the remaining (4) to be installed with the Victron meter so I can get some data.

 

[sailor man]

I fabricated (2) busbars from Blue Sea MaxiBus busbars. They are rated for 250A DC.
I had to elongate one of the holes to match the distance between the connection points and I used multiple layers of blue electrical tape to protect against shorting.
This is how they will look in the planned series connection. Of course they can also be used in a parallel connection with these batteries.

 

[sailor man]

I fabricated (2) busbars from Blue Sea MaxiBus busbars. They are rated for 250A DC.
I had to elongate one of the holes to match the distance between the connection points and I used multiple layers of blue electrical tape to protect against shorting.
View attachment 7185This is how they will look in the planned series connection. Of course they can also be used in a parallel connection with these batteries.



View attachment 7183

View attachment 7184

Taking them to the coach today.

 

[sailor man]

View attachment 7114
I have mocked up 1/2 of the (8) 12v 100 ah batteries. There will be another (4) batteries, in reverse facing these. The is another (2) of these batteries located on the new Aluminum battery that located in the engine compartment.
I could only find 8” manufactured 2/0 battery cables, but there were no dimensioned drawings, so I had to mock things up before installation.
The 8” dimension was actually a center to center dimension. These batteries, if placed highly together, have a 6.91” center to center dimension. This required to install the batteries with a 1.09” space between them. The overall length of the (4) batteries and the (3) spaces was still within the physical limits of the storage space under the settee.
To accomodate and permanently control the spacing, 1”x1” Cumaru wood strip were used. These strip have a 75 year life span when exposed to the outside elements, resist wood boring insects and have a Class A flame spread rating. They used to sell a pack of 100 at about $1.00 each from Advantage Lumber. They have mills in Florida (Sarasota), New York, North Carolina and California.
The cables have to be fastened with a precise torque, so check that out.
The Remy Battery “flag” battery post boots are installed and do not require modification. I hate exposed metal on battery cables and posts.
To connect to additional batteries in parallel, only the red lead on the left battery will be connected. The additional (4) batteries are rotated 180°, facing these and only the black cable will be connected to the last one. In an arrangement of multiple batteries connected in parallel, the positive and negative cables should never be connected to a single battery.

The batteries are being installed in my coach. These 100 ah batteries are being circuited in parallel with (2) more batteries in the engine compartment. I will have to replace the bent cables with just busbars in order to get them into a compact arrangement to fit in this compartment under the settee. To the left are (2) Sterling battery to battery chargers. One is a 12vdc battery to 12vdc battery charger that is the sole source of charging the single DieHard 100ah starter battery with over 800CCA. The other Sterling unit is a 12vdc battery to 48vdc battery charger so that excess solar energy, no needed to further charge the 12dc house bank will then charge the 48vdc bank providing power to the mini-splits.

 

[sailor man]

Moving on to the issue of the terrible dash air conditioning system. Cliff figured out what was wrong with the GMC upgrade installation and fixed it. It now blows very hard. When we tried it with the engine powered air conditioning compressor, the cold air was amazing.
Then I decided to change to a 12vdc air condition compressor. It takes that ac load off the engine and I can have a functioning dash air conditioner when the engine is not running.
View attachment 6706
This is the new 12v dc air conditioning compressor mounted on a Ragusa aluminum drivers side battery pan. A year ago, it was very hard to find this kind of compressor, so I found it on eBay. There ws not a lot of information available but today I scored.
It is the compressor for a ProAir 12v Air Condition System and you can find it at UndermountAC.com. It has two speed settings, medium and high. It will produce 19,918 BTU/h on high and 16,128BTU/h on medium with a draw of 78amps @14volts. WIth the (10) BattleBorn 100ah batteries wired in parallel, the power draw is not a problem.
The (2) mini splits provide 12,000 BTU/h each. So there is a total air conditioning capacity of almost 44,000 BTU/h, almost 4.5 tons.
Without the engine running and no rooftop ac noise, the system will be very quiet.
I can't wait to get it all operating!

This is a 12v dc Hella vacuum pump. All of the air dampers in the dashboard that direct air to defrost, deice, heat and cool are powered by the vacuum air created by the rocket 455 engine. If the 455 is not running, the dampers do not work.
In the original fit out, this engine vacuum also powered the windshield wipers, but I have already replaced them with electrically powered ones.
I am installing this Hella pump to powered the damper from the 12v house battery bank.
Now all of the dashboard air conditioning will be functional without the engine running.
The deice, defrost and whiting are available when the 455 runs.
The main heating for the coach comes from the (2) YMGI mini-splits.

 

[John S.]

Please explain to us what Cliff found wrong with the original engine driven dash air, and what he did to it to make it blow hard. Some of us who will not be able to do all the mods you are accomplishing are still struggling with poor airflow.

John Shutzbaugh

 

[RF_Burns]

Please explain to us what Cliff found wrong with the original engine driven dash air, and what he did to it to make it blow hard. Some of us who will not be able to do all the mods you are accomplishing are still struggling with poor airflow.

John Shutzbaugh


John,

I have a 1977 Palm Beach with the pinnacle of GMC engineering in the Dash AC design. But it still sucked. One day one of the directional diffusers (if that's what you call them) on the driver's side fell out and I could not get it to stay in the outlet. So I just tossed it in the glove box. Next time we had the coach out, my leg was freezing from the volumeof cold air. So I took out the other diffuser on the driver's side. It was great! Suddenly lots of cool air.

Some time later my wife noticed them missing and inquired about it. So I came clean and she pulled them out on the passenger side enroute. Suddenly she also was enjoying copious amounts of cool AC air! I was grilled about how long I had enjoyed this on the driver's side....

Well Happy Wife, Happy life... all those "diffusers" or more correctly "air restrictors" now live in the glove compartment. Even Buddy our dog is much happier without them.

Try it, you may like it!

 

[John S.]

Please explain to us what Cliff found wrong with the original engine driven dash air, and what he did to it to make it blow hard. Some of us who will not be able to do all the mods you are accomplishing are still struggling with poor airflow.

John Shutzbaugh


John,

I have a 1977 Palm Beach with the pinnacle of GMC engineering in the Dash AC design. But it still sucked. One day one of the directional diffusers (if that's what you call them) on the driver's side fell out and I could not get it to stay in the outlet. So I just tossed it in the glove box. Next time we had the coach out, my leg was freezing from the volumeof cold air. So I took out the other diffuser on the driver's side. It was great! Suddenly lots of cool air.

Some time later my wife noticed them missing and inquired about it. So I came clean and she pulled them out on the passenger side enroute. Suddenly she also was enjoying copious amounts of cool AC air! I was grilled about how long I had enjoyed this on the driver's side....

Well Happy Wife, Happy life... all those "diffusers" or more correctly "air restrictors" now live in the glove compartment. Even Buddy our dog is much happier without them.

Try it, you may like it!

 

[John S.]

Thanks, Bruce. Will give it a try next week, although A/C days are becoming more scarce, it is supposed to be only around 70F when we'll be driving.

John Shutzbaugh

 

[sailor man]

Please explain to us what Cliff found wrong with the original engine driven dash air, and what he did to it to make it blow hard. Some of us who will not be able to do all the mods you are accomplishing are still struggling with poor airflow.

John Shutzbaugh

There was an early GMC fix for the air distribution.
This is an under dash ducting attachment with much larger vents. It was in the coach when I bought it, but it did not work.
Cliff used to sell this product. He might have actually made it at one time.
When I asked him to improve the air flow, he looked at it and told me that whoever installed it did not know what they were doing. There were a lot of blockages in the ducting that did not allow the air to come through. He eliminated the blockages, reinstalled the unit and it now blows very hard.
The original vent in the dash are basically useless.

 

[John S.]

Thanks for your explanation. Like Bruce, we have the "latest & greatest" GMC iteration of the A/C system, so those mods do not apply. Will be trying Bruce's solution next week.

John Shutzbaugh

















bruce, I have the "latest & greatest"

 

[sailor man]

View attachment 4830
When the spare tire is lowered to the ground for either parking or tire replacement, both YMGI mini splits can be used. For changing a tire, remove the lugs while the tire is on the ground and mount the flat tire in its place. There is no lifting of the spare.

If the KiPO4 battereis need help, pull out the lpg powered generator and augment the battereis to maintain the use of the two YMGI 48v mini splits. Since the dashboard air conditioner has been modified to run on 12v dc power, not engine power, all three of the units can be used when parked.

The stand tow hitch was rated 8,000 GTW and 300 TW. According to Roadmaster, the installation of this spare tire mount would reduce the capacity by 50%.
The new under bumper tow hitch is rated at 15,000 lb GTW, so the capacity of this arrangement is 7,500lb GTW.
The rating on the actual tow bar is 6,000lb GTW and 200lb TW.

 

[sailor man]

I once had the notion that it would be great to tow my J-24 and use the GMC to launch it in any body of water that I ran into on my travels. I did come across a YouTube video of one being launched by a GMC motorhome with its mast up on a trailer with an extendable tongue because of the J’s keel, requiring deeper water at the ramp.
The J weighs 3,000 lb and the trailer is about 750 lb., so the GMC and this hitch certainly have enough capacity.
WIth the ability to adjust the height of the chassis coupled with front wheel drive, it seems that it would be a lot of fun.
J-24’s are the largest run of production boats and were original built around 1976. Sound familiar?
They are still actively sailed and raced. J-24’s have always been towed everywhere and can be either at a boat ramp or splashed with a hoist.
I think that it would make sense, if I were to pursue this, I would have to change the drive to a limited slip version to avoid traction problems at a wet boat ramp.
Do you have a trailerable boat that you might want to consider this option?

 

[sailor man]

I once had the notion that it would be great to tow my J-24 and use the GMC to launch it in any body of water that I ran into on my travels. I did come across a YouTube video of one being launched by a GMC motorhome with its mast up on a trailer with an extendable tongue because of the J’s keel, requiring deeper water at the ramp.
The J weighs 3,000 lb and the trailer is about 750 lb., so the GMC and this hitch certainly have enough capacity.
WIth the ability to adjust the height of the chassis coupled with front wheel drive, it seems that it would be a lot of fun.
J-24’s are the largest run of production boats and were original built around 1976. Sound familiar?
They are still actively sailed and raced. J-24’s have always been towed everywhere and can be either at a boat ramp or splashed with a hoist.
I think that it would make sense, if I were to pursue this, I would have to change the drive to a limited slip version to avoid traction problems at a wet boat ramp.
Do you have a trailerable boat that you might want to consider this option?View attachment 7238

Jin Bounds says that converting to a four bagger improves the towing experience of a GMC motorhome. Does anyone know if that is so?
I have already installed the quad bag.