WATER PUMP

R

richard bachert

New member
Mar 14, 1999
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This to follow up on a thread of some time back about WATER PUMPS. Just
received my WINTERFELDT WATER PUMP and it has an PADDLE SHEET STEEL
IMPELLER. Daryl claims that it moves a lot more water much more efficiently
(due to the smoother surfaces) than the cast impeller.
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
 
Uh -- Hmmm.

Now there's a sea change in logic. (pun intended)

What size is the impeller?
Huge, filling the entire pump cavity or small?

Inquiring minds gotta' know!

Mark

> This to follow up on a thread of some time back about WATER PUMPS. Just
> received my WINTERFELDT WATER PUMP and it has an PADDLE SHEET STEEL
> IMPELLER. Daryl claims that it moves a lot more water much more
> efficiently
> (due to the smoother surfaces) than the cast impeller.
> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
>
 
Dick --

Another advance in the world of the GMC. Cool.

Can you share the cost with us?

Mark

[snip]

> Mark, The wheel is 4.125" in diameter, has 8 -- count 'em -- 8
> paddles which
> have minimum clearance and contoured to the interior of the
> pumping chamber.
> I haven't taken the old unit off, so don't know how "better" this one is,
> but it looks like Winterfeldt has taken full advantage of the space
> available. This thing looks like it could be used to fight fires! :-)
> The body is a TRW unit. He says he uses TRW as it has the
> biggest bearings
> available.
> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta.

[snip]
 
What is the diameter of the shaft for the fan clutch, 1/2" or 5/8". Most of the
fan clutch numbers on the GMCNet won't fit the 5/8" shaft.
Gary
'77 Kingsley
North Bend, Oregon Coast

> Mark, The wheel is 4.125" in diameter, has 8 -- count 'em -- 8 paddles which
> have minimum clearance and contoured to the interior of the pumping chamber.
> I haven't taken the old unit off, so don't know how "better" this one is,
> but it looks like Winterfeldt has taken full advantage of the space
> available. This thing looks like it could be used to fight fires! :-)
> The body is a TRW unit. He says he uses TRW as it has the biggest bearings
> available.
> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta.
>

> >Uh -- Hmmm.
> >
> >Now there's a sea change in logic. (pun intended)
> >
> >What size is the impeller?
> >Huge, filling the entire pump cavity or small?
> >
> >Inquiring minds gotta' know!
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >> This to follow up on a thread of some time back about WATER PUMPS. Just
> >> received my WINTERFELDT WATER PUMP and it has an PADDLE SHEET STEEL
> >> IMPELLER. Daryl claims that it moves a lot more water much more
> >> efficiently
> >> (due to the smoother surfaces) than the cast impeller.
> >> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
> >>
> >
 
Mark, The wheel is 4.125" in diameter, has 8 -- count 'em -- 8 paddles which
have minimum clearance and contoured to the interior of the pumping chamber.
I haven't taken the old unit off, so don't know how "better" this one is,
but it looks like Winterfeldt has taken full advantage of the space
available. This thing looks like it could be used to fight fires! :-)
The body is a TRW unit. He says he uses TRW as it has the biggest bearings
available.
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta.

>Uh -- Hmmm.
>
>Now there's a sea change in logic. (pun intended)
>
>What size is the impeller?
>Huge, filling the entire pump cavity or small?
>
>Inquiring minds gotta' know!
>
>Mark
>
>> This to follow up on a thread of some time back about WATER PUMPS. Just
>> received my WINTERFELDT WATER PUMP and it has an PADDLE SHEET STEEL
>> IMPELLER. Daryl claims that it moves a lot more water much more
>> efficiently
>> (due to the smoother surfaces) than the cast impeller.
>> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
>>
>
 
Mark, $138.00 + UPS (between 6-7 bucks to Atlanta).
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta

>Dick --
>
>Another advance in the world of the GMC. Cool.
>
>Can you share the cost with us?
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>[snip]
>
>> Mark, The wheel is 4.125" in diameter, has 8 -- count 'em -- 8
>> paddles which
>> have minimum clearance and contoured to the interior of the
>> pumping chamber.
>> I haven't taken the old unit off, so don't know how "better" this one is,
>> but it looks like Winterfeldt has taken full advantage of the space
>> available. This thing looks like it could be used to fight fires! :-)
>> The body is a TRW unit. He says he uses TRW as it has the
>> biggest bearings
>> available.
>> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta.
>
>[snip]
>
>
 
Gary, .625" diameter. And just mated it with my OEM fan clutch (which is
hanging in the garage). Sucker fits right up to the OEM .625" bore and hole
pattern.
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta

>What is the diameter of the shaft for the fan clutch, 1/2" or 5/8". Most
of the
>fan clutch numbers on the GMCNet won't fit the 5/8" shaft.
>Gary
>'77 Kingsley
>North Bend, Oregon Coast
>

>
>> Mark, The wheel is 4.125" in diameter, has 8 -- count 'em -- 8 paddles which
>> have minimum clearance and contoured to the interior of the pumping chamber.
>> I haven't taken the old unit off, so don't know how "better" this one is,
>> but it looks like Winterfeldt has taken full advantage of the space
>> available. This thing looks like it could be used to fight fires! :-)
>> The body is a TRW unit. He says he uses TRW as it has the biggest bearings
>> available.
>> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta.
>>

>> >Uh -- Hmmm.
>> >
>> >Now there's a sea change in logic. (pun intended)
>> >
>> >What size is the impeller?
>> >Huge, filling the entire pump cavity or small?
>> >
>> >Inquiring minds gotta' know!
>> >
>> >Mark
>> >
>> >> This to follow up on a thread of some time back about WATER PUMPS. Just
>> >> received my WINTERFELDT WATER PUMP and it has an PADDLE SHEET STEEL
>> >> IMPELLER. Daryl claims that it moves a lot more water much more
>> >> efficiently
>> >> (due to the smoother surfaces) than the cast impeller.
>> >> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
>> >>
>> >
>
>
>
>
 
Lanier, 138 bucks + shipping. Pricey -- but what's a toasted engine go for
these days? :-)
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
PS: I still haven't forgotten about the drums. If you can wait a bit, I
want to get a little further into the disc project before I let them go.

>In a message dated 5/11/99 10:54:30 PM Central Daylight Time,

>
>> This thing looks like it could be used to fight fires! :-)
>> > The body is a TRW unit. He says he uses TRW as it has the biggest
>> bearings
>> > available.
>> > Dick 75 PB in Atlanta.
>
>Dick,
>How much $ does he get for those?
>Lanier
>
 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:20:46 EDT
From: HLBF
Subject: Re: GMC: WATER PUMP

In a message dated 5/11/99 10:54:30 PM Central Daylight Time,

> This thing looks like it could be used to fight fires! :-)
> > The body is a TRW unit. He says he uses TRW as it has the biggest
> bearings
> > available.
> > Dick 75 PB in Atlanta.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here comes that old disclaimer " I'm not an engineer, but"
Back in the good ol' days the water pumps on the ford flatheads would
pump too much water and it would pass thru the engine too fast to collect
the heat and the engine would have hot spots from the turbulence. We would
cut off every other Fin on the pump and install a larger radiator to
dissipate the heat. Are you sure we are not headed down that same road??
maybe we need to slow the water down so that there is enough time to
transfer the heat from the engine to the water. Bigger is not always better.
Unless it's a radiator.

Terry Skinner
Webfooted in Washington
'76 Glenbrook
 
Terry you quoted one of Joe Mondellos recommendations for hot 455's!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:20:46 EDT
>From: HLBF
>Subject: Re: GMC: WATER PUMP
>
>In a message dated 5/11/99 10:54:30 PM Central Daylight Time,

>
>> This thing looks like it could be used to fight fires! :-)
>> > The body is a TRW unit. He says he uses TRW as it has the biggest
>> bearings
>> > available.
>> > Dick 75 PB in Atlanta.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Here comes that old disclaimer " I'm not an engineer, but"
> Back in the good ol' days the water pumps on the ford flatheads would
>pump too much water and it would pass thru the engine too fast to collect
>the heat and the engine would have hot spots from the turbulence. We would
>cut off every other Fin on the pump and install a larger radiator to
>dissipate the heat. Are you sure we are not headed down that same road??
>maybe we need to slow the water down so that there is enough time to
>transfer the heat from the engine to the water. Bigger is not always better.
>Unless it's a radiator.
>
>Terry Skinner
>Webfooted in Washington
>'76 Glenbrook
>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
"The beautiful Mohawk Vally"
 
>Terry, I have been made to believe that Winterfeldt knows what he's about
>here. If anyone on this net has information or direct experience to the
>contrary, please speak now or forever hold your peace.

First, let me say that I have my doubts about ALL engine rebuilders when it
comes to the GMC motorohome. I have found Winterfeldt's information to
generally make sense, and base my following comments on an admittedly small
sample. However, not to be blocked by forever holding my peace, here goes
what I've seen and heard.

I have no direct information, but have seen a number of Winterfeldt engines
in for repair at a few shops. I bought a used Winterfeldt from the original
owner. He had several problems related to poor quality control. He had a
massive oil leak out the drain plug because Winterfeldt's forgot to tighten
the plug. He had another quality related problem that I don't recall the
details about. Winterfeldt make the repairs - no questions asked.

Another Winterfeldt engine that I saw has an excessive oil consumption
problem. Intake manifold was pulled and Winterfeld asked that they put a
new gasket set in. No good - there needs to be some machining done to bring
everything into tolerance. This is supposed to be a newly ( I'm about to install
>this thing and if I'm heading for trouble, I need to know that NOW.
>It seems to me that the problem with the old Fords was that the rad was too
>small for efficient dissipation to atmosphere with consequent heat build up.
>Moving up to the larger rad probably took care of 90% of the problem.
>Clipping paddles off the pump may not have been necessary except to abate
>the turbulence. And those older coolants and their recommended
>concentrations were not what we have today.
>Just some thoughts.

At some point restrictions in the intake or exhauist of the pump (and
system) will cause cavitation. Then you don't move much fluid and the pump
will erode. Also, turbulance can be a good thing or a bad thing depending
on the design.

Henry

Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting
PO Box 1270 / product readiness reviews
Soquel, Ca 95073 / IP reviews
ph: (831) 462-5199 / full service marketing
fax: (831) 462-5198
http://www.henry-davis.com/ http://www.henry-davis.com
 
Terry, I have been made to believe that Winterfeldt knows what he's about
here. If anyone on this net has information or direct experience to the
contrary, please speak now or forever hold your peace. I'm about to install
this thing and if I'm heading for trouble, I need to know that NOW.
It seems to me that the problem with the old Fords was that the rad was too
small for efficient dissipation to atmosphere with consequent heat build up.
Moving up to the larger rad probably took care of 90% of the problem.
Clipping paddles off the pump may not have been necessary except to abate
the turbulence. And those older coolants and their recommended
concentrations were not what we have today.
Just some thoughts.

Dick 75 PB in Atlanta

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:20:46 EDT
>From: HLBF
>Subject: Re: GMC: WATER PUMP
>
>In a message dated 5/11/99 10:54:30 PM Central Daylight Time,

>
>> This thing looks like it could be used to fight fires! :-)
>> > The body is a TRW unit. He says he uses TRW as it has the biggest
>> bearings
>> > available.
>> > Dick 75 PB in Atlanta.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Here comes that old disclaimer " I'm not an engineer, but"
> Back in the good ol' days the water pumps on the ford flatheads would
>pump too much water and it would pass thru the engine too fast to collect
>the heat and the engine would have hot spots from the turbulence. We would
>cut off every other Fin on the pump and install a larger radiator to
>dissipate the heat. Are you sure we are not headed down that same road??
>maybe we need to slow the water down so that there is enough time to
>transfer the heat from the engine to the water. Bigger is not always better.
>Unless it's a radiator.
>
>Terry Skinner
>Webfooted in Washington
>'76 Glenbrook
>
>
 
OK, guys, this is starting to concern me.
Tom, are you telling me that the expensive Winterfeldt water pump I just
bought will make the 455 run HOTTER!!!!
Anybody have any honest to God EMPIRICAL field data for any of this or do we
just keep speculating and confuse the hell out of everyone?
I'd LOVE to hear from you guys using the Winterfeldt pump. Did it make you
run cooler, hotter or about the same????

Dick 75 PB in Atlanta

>Terry you quoted one of Joe Mondellos recommendations for hot 455's!
>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:20:46 EDT
>>From: HLBF
>>Subject: Re: GMC: WATER PUMP
>>
>>In a message dated 5/11/99 10:54:30 PM Central Daylight Time,

>>
>>> This thing looks like it could be used to fight fires! :-)
>>> > The body is a TRW unit. He says he uses TRW as it has the biggest
>>> bearings
>>> > available.
>>> > Dick 75 PB in Atlanta.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>Here comes that old disclaimer " I'm not an engineer, but"
>> Back in the good ol' days the water pumps on the ford flatheads would
>>pump too much water and it would pass thru the engine too fast to collect
>>the heat and the engine would have hot spots from the turbulence. We would
>>cut off every other Fin on the pump and install a larger radiator to
>>dissipate the heat. Are you sure we are not headed down that same road??
>>maybe we need to slow the water down so that there is enough time to
>>transfer the heat from the engine to the water. Bigger is not always better.
>>Unless it's a radiator.
>>
>>Terry Skinner
>>Webfooted in Washington
>>'76 Glenbrook
>>
>>
>>
>Tom & Marg Warner
>Vernon Center NY
>1976 palmbeach
>"The beautiful Mohawk Vally"
>
>
 
>In a message dated 5/13/99 1:43:37 PM Central Daylight Time,

>
>>
>> Having said all of this, the concensus among those I've talked with is
that
>> the problems will show up fairly early and he makes good on them. Not much
>> consolation of you're a thousand miles from home when a problem happens.
>> But they do happen regardless of who does the rebuild.
>>
>
>Henry
>
>Thanks for the thoughtful and careful reply. Glad to see someone who will
>still
>speak their mind.

I get a little nervous when I get ready to write a reply like that. BUT,
it's tough enough to make the GMCs as right as we can without godhood
popping up from any source (including me).

>This is not about being right or wrong-----we each should
>add what we think we know and then each of us should sort out what
>makes sense for us.

It's tough to make an informed decision without information. I lay no claim
to perfection of any sort when it comes to commenting on any particular
supplier. There should be a message "between the lines" about Winterfeldt
in my reply - I bought the engine AFTER talking to a number of folks who
had some negative comments about the more recent rebuild jobs.

> What is right and wrong will be sorted out by the
>people after us-----we will only think we know. We all know what we think
>of the previous owner---------

Yep. Mine didn't bother to keep the rain out a time or two in Washington.
OTOH it was otherwise in pretty good shape and a fair price. So, I don't
complain - nor do I think less of the PO. He made his decisions for his
reasons. Undoubtedly mine are diffrerent.

>think what the next owner will think of us. I
>can
>only hope that I am only half the idiot the last owner of my coach was. After
>all he did keep it alive enough for me to buy it.

Well said, and the important point I think.

Best,

Henry

Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting
PO Box 1270 / product readiness reviews
Soquel, Ca 95073 / IP reviews
ph: (831) 462-5199 / full service marketing
fax: (831) 462-5198
http://www.henry-davis.com/ http://www.henry-davis.com
 
Time for a Water Pump. After all the posts does any body have any experience
with the TRW FP-1524HD . This is one of the interchange models mentioned by
GMC International Members. At $48.95 for a new pump it seems to be a good
choice. I understand that Mondello or Winterfeldt used it as a basis for a
rebuilt although without the 8 blade impeller( I believe this unit has a six
blade stamped impeller).It also makes sense to me not to have too much
velocity through the engine so coolant can absorb the heat better. I checked
with Autozone today they have a $17.00 rebuilt, $40. new unknown brand
lifetime Warrantee)
and $80. super duty .I didnt like the construction of the first two and the
super duty was special order.
Any Comments?
PS anybody have Marcus McGees E-Mal Address?
Mark "77 Palm Beach LINY
 
Time for a Water Pump. After all the posts does any body have any experience
with the TRW FP-1524HD . This is one of the interchange models mentioned by
GMC International Members. At $48.95 for a new pump it seems to be a good
choice. I understand that Mondello or Winterfeldt used it as a basis for a
rebuilt although without the 8 blade impeller( I believe this unit has a six
blade stamped impeller).It also makes sense to me not to have too much
velocity through the engine so coolant can absorb the heat better. I checked
with Autozone today they have a $17.00 rebuilt, $40. new unknown brand
lifetime Warrantee)
and $80. super duty .I didnt like the construction of the first two and the
super duty was special order.
Any Comments?

Mark "77 Palm Beach LINY
 
Mark, Wish this post had come along a few weeks earlier. I'm now the proud
owner of the Winterfeldt modified TRW pump with the 8 blade impeller and
$140. lighter in the wallet. Caveat emptor!
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta]

>Time for a Water Pump. After all the posts does any body have any experience
>with the TRW FP-1524HD . This is one of the interchange models mentioned by
>GMC International Members. At $48.95 for a new pump it seems to be a good
>choice. I understand that Mondello or Winterfeldt used it as a basis for a
>rebuilt although without the 8 blade impeller( I believe this unit has a six
>blade stamped impeller).It also makes sense to me not to have too much
>velocity through the engine so coolant can absorb the heat better. I checked
>with Autozone today they have a $17.00 rebuilt, $40. new unknown brand
>lifetime Warrantee)
>and $80. super duty .I didnt like the construction of the first two and the
>super duty was special order.
>Any Comments?
>
>Mark "77 Palm Beach LINY
>
>
 
Emory as a matter of fact in some cases increased flow thru the radiator
will result in less cooling due to the turbulence set up by the protusions
in the flow patch. If you have ever witnessed fast flowing water across a
surface you will note that there is sometimes a thin layer of molecules
between the surface and the fluid. this layer acts as an insulator and in
the case of a cooling medium, would reduce the heat gradient across the two
surfaces. In the racing industry they have come up with different additives
to coat the surfaces to increase the heat transfer. I noticed in one of
Mondellos tech brochures he recommends cutting every second paddle of the
water pump in some high performance engines to cut down on the flow.

>

>
>>
>
>I'm about 2 weeks late responding to this one as I'm finally at my daughter's
>house in Boston and am able to use the computer for a while to catch up on
>messages.
>
>I don't think that you'll find the velocity with any automotive pump pushing
>the water through an engine at too fast a speed. Actually, a higher velocity
>(with its increased flow) would transfer more heat from the engine to the
>radiator. Years ago I recall a submitted paper of a fellow college student
>in one of our Chem. Engineering thermodynamics classes that concluded that
>beer would cool to a 60 deg. temp faster if it was under a running cold water
>tap than if it was submerged in still ice water. Another example is holding
>your hand under a faucet at a low speed and then turning it up higher. It
>will feel cooler at the high setting. The higher velocity of the fluid will
>move the water molecules away from the hot surface and transfer more heat in
>a given time. Slower moving fluids build up a temperature gradient from the
>surface to the center of the fluid. It's really not quite this simple.
>There are such effects as laminer and turbulent flow, etc. but all in all I
>would opt for a higher velocity/ higher volume water pump if I had to change
>one out.
>
>Emery Stora
>77 Kingsley
>Santa Fe, NM
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
"The beautiful Mohawk Vally"
 
Sure is good to see someone shed a little thermodynamics on this....I've bit
my tongue most of my life listening to guys say that the water needs to slow
down to pick up heat! And I guess they think that the perceived temperature
on a 30 degree day will be warmer if there is also a strong wind...

I suspect that this myth might have been started by someone who experienced
overheating after removing his thermostat, then cured it with a restrictor.
I've always assumed that the real culprit here would be pump cavitation.

Travis

- -----Original Message-----
From: EMERYSTORA
To: gmcmotorhome
Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: GMC: Water Pump

>

>
>>
>
>I'm about 2 weeks late responding to this one as I'm finally at my
daughter's
>house in Boston and am able to use the computer for a while to catch up on
>messages.
>
>I don't think that you'll find the velocity with any automotive pump
pushing
>the water through an engine at too fast a speed. Actually, a higher
velocity
>(with its increased flow) would transfer more heat from the engine to the
>radiator. Years ago I recall a submitted paper of a fellow college student
>in one of our Chem. Engineering thermodynamics classes that concluded that
>beer would cool to a 60 deg. temp faster if it was under a running cold
water
>tap than if it was submerged in still ice water. Another example is
holding
>your hand under a faucet at a low speed and then turning it up higher. It
>will feel cooler at the high setting. The higher velocity of the fluid
will
>move the water molecules away from the hot surface and transfer more heat
in
>a given time. Slower moving fluids build up a temperature gradient from
the
>surface to the center of the fluid. It's really not quite this simple.
>There are such effects as laminer and turbulent flow, etc. but all in all I
>would opt for a higher velocity/ higher volume water pump if I had to
change
>one out.
>
>Emery Stora
>77 Kingsley
>Santa Fe, NM
 
Emery et al,
When I posted the message about the Water Pump I was choosing there were
reasons for it. My GMC has about 75k miles although mechanically good I felt
that before they went I wanted a Timing Chain, Water Pump and gasket set on
hand so any trip I take this summer would not strand me waiting for parts
someplace. Changing those while in a Campsite would certainly be easier then
searching for parts.I tried the Eton source but they no longer carried the
4and a quarter inch impeller version, Gateway has a rebuilt for about $73 or
$78 plus core charge.GMCMI lists a TRW (Carter) 1524HD as a replacement and
some on the Net mentioned this as the core used by Mondello although with a
different impeller. Someone else has mentioned the potential for less heat
transfer with the increase in the number of fins on some Water Pumps(8 vs 6
on the TRW ).Finally a $50. cost for a NEW Pump was too much to pass on. As
Arch would say "It works for me".
I do appreciate the comments and discussion but back to that method of
cooling that bottle of Brew...
Mark '77 Palm Beach LINY
 
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