Seat Belts

R

robert mueller

New member
Jul 4, 2007
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G'day,

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate.

We have photographic evidence of three instances where coaches rolled over and were "sheared" off at the beltline. The driver and
passenger involved in those incidents survived. Had they been wearing over the shoulder seat belts attached to the body they could /
would have been decapitated.

The OEM lap belt will keep the driver and passenger in their seats but will not keep the driver from "kissing" the steering wheel or
the passenger from being bent forward at the waist in a front end collision; I don't know if the passenger would "kiss" the dash or
not.

Do we have any hard data regarding front end collisions in which the driver and passengers were injured because of what I've noted
above?

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson

I have a photo of a third that looks almost like the Nichols', which occurred some years before in FL -- looks like Payne's Prairie.
Nothing above the beltline.

My mind's made up.

Ken H.
 
if it came down to choosing between possibly hitting the steering wheel or
dash vs. losing my head - Do I really have to think about this???

Lets hope that none of us are faced with this.

Best regards
Dwayne
77 Kingsley

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Robert Mueller
wrote:

>
> G'day,
>
> I'm going to play Devil's Advocate.
>
> We have photographic evidence of three instances where coaches rolled over
> and were "sheared" off at the beltline. The driver and
> passenger involved in those incidents survived. Had they been wearing over
> the shoulder seat belts attached to the body they could /
> would have been decapitated.
>
> The OEM lap belt will keep the driver and passenger in their seats but
> will not keep the driver from "kissing" the steering wheel or
> the passenger from being bent forward at the waist in a front end
> collision; I don't know if the passenger would "kiss" the dash or
> not.
>
> Do we have any hard data regarding front end collisions in which the
> driver and passengers were injured because of what I've noted
> above?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Henderson
>
> I have a photo of a third that looks almost like the Nichols', which
> occurred some years before in FL -- looks like Payne's Prairie.
> Nothing above the beltline.
>
> My mind's made up.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
Dwayne Jacobson
White Rock BC
Cell: 604-644-8090
 
Dwayne,

Of course you would not want to be decapitated; you've got a good looking head! Well at least Sharon thinks so! ;-)

My point is we have THREE instances of sheared off coaches but NO information regarding IF anyone has been injured wearing OEM seat
belts and if they were injured how badly they were injured.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: dwayne jacobson

if it came down to choosing between possibly hitting the steering wheel or dash vs. losing my head - Do I really have to think
about this???

Lets hope that none of us are faced with this.

Best regards
Dwayne
 
I'm going to go along with Rob here. (Sorry)
But my reasons are completely different.

Seat belts started saving lives as soon as they were introduced.
The only other thing that showed that level of change was when they started painting lines in the middle of the roads.

Seat belts work to moderate injuries two ways and you will be surprised.
The first and most important is that the driver is held in the seat and does not have to use the steering wheel as a grab bar to stay in his seat.
While in place, he has a chance of controlling the vehicle and moderting secondary vehicle impacts. (Hitting something else.)
The second is that it prevents passenger ejection. Being thrown from a vehicle has a very small chance of ending well.

Shoulder belts did not really begin to be important until cars got smaller and windshields and B pillars got a lot closer to the knoggins.
Windshields were the big one there. Needless to say, these are not real big issues on the bridge of a GMC.

Mind you this is all fron a guy that freely admits to being a harness freak (a residual from racing) who is not comfortable when unrestained in a
vehicle. It also comes from the fact that I did some statistical analysis for NHSTA when I lived in A2. That is when I learned about the retaining
control part. When that first surfaced we all looked at the data and scratched heads along time. No one could validate a corelation. Then the
retaining control issue was raised. It wasn't a week before I was a witness to just such an incident. I made it known and got the reports and
pictures for our analysis group.

Matt - between square dance tips
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
It's been 20 years or so since my aunt was in a rollover accident in a 81 Monte Carlo she was driving, she left the roadway and rolled down a 15-20
foot depression of the side of Hwy 9 right before you get into Clear Lake WA. She landed upright, was not wearing her seatbelt. My father who is a
Sedro-Woolley police officer responded to the accident scene as there were no Skagit County Deputies nearby. He told me about the accident scene a few
years later and said that if she had been wearing her seatbelt she could have been decapitated based on the damage to the car. It was a 55 mph road
and she wasn't impaired. Just drifted a little to far to the right onto the gravel shoulder and it sucked her off the road. Older car of course,
airbags hadn't even been designed yet, have thought about the lack of a shoulder belt in the GMC, figured driving something this big I shouldn't be to
concerned about it.

Not sure why I shared that, may be pertinent, may not.

Jared
--
Jared & Tina Lazaron + 7yr old Daughter.

77 Eleganza II "Recherché" Winterfeldt 455, Holley ProJection, Doug Thorley Headers, 3in exhaust, Switch Pitch, Alcoas, ONAN 6.5 Emerald series, CMC
Restoration

GO SEAHAWKS!!

Arlington, WA 98223
 
I'm glad your aunt survived, that's for sure. However, one can almost always find exceptions to a general rule.

That general rule is that the odds definitely favor being belted in probably 85% or more of rollover crashes.

To me, the biggest danger is being ejected and then having the vehicle land on you and crush you.

I had seatbelts put into my 1956 Ford 2-door sedan in 1961 and have always worn them since. Some 1600 or so hours in a B-52 ejection seat sort of got me accustomed to being belted in. If I even tried to back out of the driveway without fastening the belt, the kids would chew me out!

P.S. I sure wish I could afford to buy a Ranger Tug! I sure miss our 35' Carver aft cabin we lost to weather almost four years ago.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*


> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 18:36:12 -0700
> To: gmclist
> From: lotsofspreparts
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Seat Belts
>
> It's been 20 years or so since my aunt was in a rollover accident in a 81 Monte Carlo she was driving, she left the roadway and rolled down a 15-20
> foot depression of the side of Hwy 9 right before you get into Clear Lake WA. She landed upright, was not wearing her seatbelt. My father who is a
> Sedro-Woolley police officer responded to the accident scene as there were no Skagit County Deputies nearby. He told me about the accident scene a few
> years later and said that if she had been wearing her seatbelt she could have been decapitated based on the damage to the car. It was a 55 mph road
> and she wasn't impaired. Just drifted a little to far to the right onto the gravel shoulder and it sucked her off the road. Older car of course,
> airbags hadn't even been designed yet, have thought about the lack of a shoulder belt in the GMC, figured driving something this big I shouldn't be to
> concerned about it.
>
> Not sure why I shared that, may be pertinent, may not.
>
> Jared
> --
> Jared & Tina Lazaron + 7yr old Daughter.
>
> 77 Eleganza II "Recherché" Winterfeldt 455, Holley ProJection, Doug Thorley Headers, 3in exhaust, Switch Pitch, Alcoas, ONAN 6.5 Emerald series, CMC
> Restoration
>
> GO SEAHAWKS!!
>
> Arlington, WA 98223
 
that's exactly what happened to my little sister wasn't pretty

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 7:04 PM, D C _Mac_ Macdonald
wrote:

> I'm glad your aunt survived, that's for sure. However, one can almost
> always find exceptions to a general rule.
>
> That general rule is that the odds definitely favor being belted in
> probably 85% or more of rollover crashes.
>
> To me, the biggest danger is being ejected and then having the vehicle
> land on you and crush you.
>
> I had seatbelts put into my 1956 Ford 2-door sedan in 1961 and have always
> worn them since. Some 1600 or so hours in a B-52 ejection seat sort of got
> me accustomed to being belted in. If I even tried to back out of the
> driveway without fastening the belt, the kids would chew me out!
>
> P.S. I sure wish I could afford to buy a Ranger Tug! I sure miss our 35'
> Carver aft cabin we lost to weather almost four years ago.
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> ~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ______________
> *[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
> *--OO--[]---O-*
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 18:36:12 -0700
> > To: gmclist
> > From: lotsofspreparts
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Seat Belts
> >
> > It's been 20 years or so since my aunt was in a rollover accident in a
> 81 Monte Carlo she was driving, she left the roadway and rolled down a 15-20
> > foot depression of the side of Hwy 9 right before you get into Clear
> Lake WA. She landed upright, was not wearing her seatbelt. My father who is
> a
> > Sedro-Woolley police officer responded to the accident scene as there
> were no Skagit County Deputies nearby. He told me about the accident scene
> a few
> > years later and said that if she had been wearing her seatbelt she could
> have been decapitated based on the damage to the car. It was a 55 mph road
> > and she wasn't impaired. Just drifted a little to far to the right onto
> the gravel shoulder and it sucked her off the road. Older car of course,
> > airbags hadn't even been designed yet, have thought about the lack of a
> shoulder belt in the GMC, figured driving something this big I shouldn't be
> to
> > concerned about it.
> >
> > Not sure why I shared that, may be pertinent, may not.
> >
> > Jared
> > --
> > Jared & Tina Lazaron + 7yr old Daughter.
> >
> > 77 Eleganza II "Recherché" Winterfeldt 455, Holley ProJection, Doug
> Thorley Headers, 3in exhaust, Switch Pitch, Alcoas, ONAN 6.5 Emerald
> series, CMC
> > Restoration
> >
> > GO SEAHAWKS!!
> >
> > Arlington, WA 98223
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
 
Personally it is all inconclusive as is the theory that a shoulder belt would decapitate you.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
 
I think that the most important feature of a seatbelt in the GMC is to keep the driver at the controls through an automotive emergency in order to maintain control or at least have a fighting chance to do such. The passenger belt is to keep the passenger from becoming more flotsam in the midst of said emergency. Emergency like hard swerve to avoid a collision or regain heading after mechanical failure or unexpected loss of traction/friction. I think tipping over or taking an impact up high in a GMC is something to be avoided at all costs. There just isn't that much structure up there and it's aluminum which is likely to fail catastrophically when impacted with the weight of the coach exerted on it. Don't roll it.

My 2c.

Todd Sullivan

Sully
77 royale
Seattle

>
> Personally it is all inconclusive as is the theory that a shoulder belt would decapitate you.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
I used to not wear my seat belt on my old 65 VW van. I always thought since my knees were 3-4" from the outside of the vehicle, and my face was not
that far from the windshield I figured I was screwed if I ever got in a wreck in that thing no mater what.

as far as the GMC, I really have no comment, all accidents can be so different.
--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
 
So, what about a set of Chevy pickup seats that have the shoulder harness built into them. You'd have to figure a way of bolting them down securely,
but loosing the top half of the coach in a roll-over with these seats or a frontal impact keeping you out of the steering wheel.....I don't
know...what do you think?
--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
 
I have a 1999 GMC Sierra 2500 pickup. I asked that question earlier, because I doubted the ability of the seat back (with its integral shoulder harness) to withstand a collision. The reply basically agreed because the effectiveness of that shoulder belt is predicated on the inflation of an air bag in the center of the steering wheel or the dashboard in front of a front seat passenger.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*



> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 10:47:53 -0700
> To: gmclist
> From: weidnerl
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Seat Belts
>
> So, what about a set of Chevy pickup seats that have the shoulder harness built into them. You'd have to figure a way of bolting them down securely,
> but loosing the top half of the coach in a roll-over with these seats or a frontal impact keeping you out of the steering wheel.....I don't
> know...what do you think?
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
> So, what about a set of Chevy pickup seats that have the shoulder harness built into them. You'd have to figure a way of bolting them down securely,
> but loosing the top half of the coach in a roll-over with these seats or a frontal impact keeping you out of the steering wheel.....I don't
> know...what do you think?

Just keep in mind that ANY shoulder belt you might install in your coach
is going to be your own design. There's not a person or company out
there that will do it for you (or even suggest their way is best, if
they've got half a brain) just because of the liability issue.

Installing a seat with integrated belt would be awesome - assuming you
re engineered the whole mounting system. I wouldn't dare use the stock
seat pedestal, for instance. And as Mac pointed out, it's entirely
possible they were designed to be used with an airbag and even the OEM
installation wouldn't stand up without that.

Kelvin
 
Look at the Land Speed Record GMC Bonneville racer videos. Note the roll
cage that they constructed. That is probably the minimally acceptable
system that you should consider for attaching shoulder harness. Nowhere
near everyday practical. But, if you are serious about shoulder harnesses,
that is the kind of structural integration that would save your butt in a
roll over incident that did not involve substantial front end collision.
That is a whole different scenario. Best advice I can give is to drive
while well rested, leave anything that will distract your attention from
the the road ahead at home, leave lots of stopping distance between you and
what is ahead, take frequent rest stops, maintain your coach well, and
treat all other vehicles out there like they are moving
potholes. ( something to be avoided) . Don't run into "stuff"
out there and you won't need shoulder harnesses.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

>
>> So, what about a set of Chevy pickup seats that have the shoulder harness
>> built into them. You'd have to figure a way of bolting them down securely,
>> but loosing the top half of the coach in a roll-over with these seats or
>> a frontal impact keeping you out of the steering wheel.....I don't
>> know...what do you think?
>>
>
> Just keep in mind that ANY shoulder belt you might install in your coach
> is going to be your own design. There's not a person or company out there
> that will do it for you (or even suggest their way is best, if they've got
> half a brain) just because of the liability issue.
>
> Installing a seat with integrated belt would be awesome - assuming you re
> engineered the whole mounting system. I wouldn't dare use the stock seat
> pedestal, for instance. And as Mac pointed out, it's entirely possible
> they were designed to be used with an airbag and even the OEM installation
> wouldn't stand up without that.
>
> Kelvin
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
 
G'day,

At the end of the day the question of whether or not to install an over the shoulder seat belt boils down to: "am I more likely to
be injured in a collision where my upper body is unrestrained or if I install over the shoulder seat belts attached to the GMC body
am I more likely to roll my GMC and be decapitated."

I reckon the answer is to engineer and install seats with integrated over the shoulder belts.

I do not believe the offset swivel type OEM seat bases would withstand a head on collision.

I would cover as much of the floor on the driver and passenger side of the cockpit with a 1/4" thick steel plate bolting it to the
aluminum framework. Here's a photo showing what I'm saying:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56449-seat-mounting-plate.html

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
 
Hey All

Please understand that I am NOT agreeing or disagreeing to anything that has been said here. I do have an opinion but I'll keep it to myself.

However:
I remember all of these kinds of discussions when I started pulling wrenches in the late 60s and seat belts were becomming standard in the cars of
those years. It's really entertaining hearing the same kinds of arguments and reasons for all sides being rehashed. (COOL!! ;) It was interesting
to hear how many people would refuse to wear belts for the very same kinds of reasons. I guess we can all figure out a situation where something will
be a problem. It's all about what risks are we really trying to accommodate for, and can we accommodate all eventualities. (This is the stuff that
keeps litigious societies going I suppose) (also VERY interesting to hear)

Regarding the following:
(Please remember that I'm just trying to add a bit of levity because it reminds me of something that is part of my conversations with my father, my
students, and now my son the engineer.

Quote:
> I reckon the answer is to engineer and install seats with integrated over the shoulder belts.
> ...
> I would cover as much of the floor on the driver and passenger side of the cockpit with a 1/4" thick steel plate bolting it to the
> aluminum framework. Here's a photo showing what I'm saying:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56449-seat-mounting-plate.html


Here is a quote I always use.

"If you can't or dont do the math. You better put in the material" That's why there are "Brick Shithouses"

Is that good or bad?

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Have a great weekend all !!

--
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:73 LS,
TC4W "Too Cool For Words"
Retirement Projects Galore
Edmonton, Alberta
 
John,

Not to really add anything, but you aroused my nostalgia: Back in '61 SHE,
I, and our infant son took a trip to the Smokey Mountains from Charleston,
SC. For some reason, we drove the '59 Morris Minor instead of the '59 Ford
Galaxie, a strange choice for a several hundred mile road trip. I was
having back problems, so to prevent slouching I wore a wide belt around my
pelvis and the bucket seat (which the Ford didn't have).

When we got home with my back in better than before condition, I installed
seat belts (aircraft surplus at that time) in both cars. Ever since, I
sometimes back out of the garage and can't get out of the car because I've
unconsciously buckled up. :-)

Still, I've got a brother-in-law who refuses to wear them -- except in MY
car.

Ken H.

> Hey All
>
> Please understand that I am NOT agreeing or disagreeing to anything that
> has been said here. I do have an opinion but I'll keep it to myself.
>
> However:
> I remember all of these kinds of discussions when I started pulling
> wrenches in the late 60s and seat belts were becomming standard in the
> cars of
> ​ t
> hose years.

​...​
 
Really not trying to add bad morale with this topic.... does anyone know if anyone has lost their life in an accident involving a GMC MH.

Not wanting to debate, just more curious than anything else.

Jared
--
Jared & Tina Lazaron + 7yr old Daughter.

77 Eleganza II "Recherché" Winterfeldt 455, Holley ProJection, Doug Thorley Headers, 3in exhaust, Switch Pitch, Alcoas, ONAN 6.5 Emerald series, CMC
Restoration

GO SEAHAWKS!!

Arlington, WA 98223
 
> G'day,
>
> At the end of the day the question of whether or not to install an over the shoulder seat belt boils down to: "am I more likely to
> be injured in a collision where my upper body is unrestrained or if I install over the shoulder seat belts attached to the GMC body
> am I more likely to roll my GMC and be decapitated."
>
> I reckon the answer is to engineer and install seats with integrated over the shoulder belts.
>
> I do not believe the offset swivel type OEM seat bases would withstand a head on collision.
>
> I would cover as much of the floor on the driver and passenger side of the cockpit with a 1/4" thick steel plate bolting it to the
> aluminum framework. Here's a photo showing what I'm saying:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56449-seat-mounting-plate.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

What makes anyone think that a shoulder belt can cause decaptitation??
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
 
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