porous aluminum tranny pan

Karen, look up Eastwood.com. They will have what you need. Don't get the
rattle can. Get a pint or a quart can and apply it with a brush.
Jim Hupy

> Ken:
> If you live in California, you cannot buy Glyptal locally. The VOC's are
> too high, but for what it is, there is NO substitute.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ken Henderson"
> To: "GMC Mail List"
> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 10:26:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] porous aluminum tranny pan
>
> Karen,
>
> If it were a new pan, I'd probably vote for waterglass. But, like you, my
> Ragusa pan (never yet installed by me) is used. I wouldn't have ANY
> confidence that waterglass would penetrate and cure properly. Instead,
> I've cleaned it as thoroughly with degreasers and pressure washing as
> possible. It is, right now, undergoing 3 hours in a oven at 500*F. I'm
> expecting that to bake out enough of the old ATF to enable glyptal to stick
> to it. Checking sources for that glypal has been a shock -- $21.51 for 225
> ml ( > only problem with the glyptal is it's insulating. Not a biggie,
> > but keeping the cooling ability would be nice. Gotta do something cuz
> > it's a mess.
> > ​...
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Well, good, bad, or indifferent, I've chosen a path with my Ragusa pan.
After last nights 2 hours at 500*F, I cleaned the pan a little more,
Scotch-Brite-ing off the few remaining non-aluminum bits. Then washed it
down with chlorinated brake cleaner and dried it with compressed air.
Shiny bright with no hint of petroleum products on the surface.

Rather than wait for a glyptal order, at $49.99 per quart, I decided to
risk something else: 500*F Duplicolor Ceramic Engine Paint. I gave it 3
good coats, 10-15 minutes apart, then put it in a 300*F oven for 4 hours.
We'll see tomorrow how it looks. I expect it to be "pretty", and hopefully
have a hard, smooth, finish coat on it.

I don't know how to evaluate the durability of the coating except to use
it. I may let it sit overnight in the yard with gasoline in it or
something similar to see if there's any deterioration. It not, then it
will be time to install it and hope.

I'm not doing this completely in the blind. A lot of 'net research
revealed that a lot of different people report having good luck using a
wide variety of paints inside engines. Rustoleum seems to be a favorite.
While I have used various of their products over the years, I'm generally
not a fan, so I explicitly chose another brand -- which I just happened to
have on hand.

Rest assured, everyone will hear about it if it costs me a transmission
some years down the road. :-)

Ken H.
 
Karen, Glyptal is an electrical insulator, but not a heat insulator. I have
a probe in my Ragusa pan, and the transmission fluid never exceeds 160
degrees in the pan. So, i would say that your concerns about it insulating
the fluid from the cooling fins are of little consequence.
Jim Hupy

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Ken Henderson
wrote:

> Well, good, bad, or indifferent, I've chosen a path with my Ragusa pan.
> After last nights 2 hours at 500*F, I cleaned the pan a little more,
> Scotch-Brite-ing off the few remaining non-aluminum bits. Then washed it
> down with chlorinated brake cleaner and dried it with compressed air.
> Shiny bright with no hint of petroleum products on the surface.
>
> Rather than wait for a glyptal order, at $49.99 per quart, I decided to
> risk something else: 500*F Duplicolor Ceramic Engine Paint. I gave it 3
> good coats, 10-15 minutes apart, then put it in a 300*F oven for 4 hours.
> We'll see tomorrow how it looks. I expect it to be "pretty", and hopefully
> have a hard, smooth, finish coat on it.
>
> I don't know how to evaluate the durability of the coating except to use
> it. I may let it sit overnight in the yard with gasoline in it or
> something similar to see if there's any deterioration. It not, then it
> will be time to install it and hope.
>
> I'm not doing this completely in the blind. A lot of 'net research
> revealed that a lot of different people report having good luck using a
> wide variety of paints inside engines. Rustoleum seems to be a favorite.
> While I have used various of their products over the years, I'm generally
> not a fan, so I explicitly chose another brand -- which I just happened to
> have on hand.
>
> Rest assured, everyone will hear about it if it costs me a transmission
> some years down the road. :-)
>
> Ken H.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Have used red Glyptal for years in engine building to seal the surfaces of heads and valley pan. Theory being that it speeds oil return marginally.
I had a bunch of it from a stint long ago as the opns mgr of a specialized electric forklift motor shop. Its much cheaper in bulk.
There is also an [electricly] insulating varnish that is used on the windings that requires heat that would likely work if baked on

The engine enamel would proably work. Key to any of it is meticulous prep. I have seen it used on the lower end of engines where it was blased off in
sheets due to the force of oil slung at high RPM- and almost clogged the oil pickup. I dont think you would see that problem in a tranny pan though.

Powder coating would work as well, but its getting pricey locally. I ivested in an old oven and eastwood kit recently.

Cheapest/fastest option? Assuming a good prep, Id probably go with a very thin coat of hi-temp silicone like Permatex Ultra.
--
76 Glenbrook
 
Ken,
I would also be concerned about the solvent resistance of the ceramic paint over the Glyptal. Eastwood has a similar paint that is good to 650F and they also have it is a 455 Olds color Item# 51683ZP. I would test with ATF, Brake fluid and gas to see if there is any degrading of the paint.

JR Wright
78 GMC Buskirk Stretch
Michigan

>
> Well, good, bad, or indifferent, I've chosen a path with my Ragusa pan.
> After last nights 2 hours at 500*F, I cleaned the pan a little more,
> Scotch-Brite-ing off the few remaining non-aluminum bits. Then washed it
> down with chlorinated brake cleaner and dried it with compressed air.
> Shiny bright with no hint of petroleum products on the surface.
>
> Rather than wait for a glyptal order, at $49.99 per quart, I decided to
> risk something else: 500*F Duplicolor Ceramic Engine Paint. I gave it 3
> good coats, 10-15 minutes apart, then put it in a 300*F oven for 4 hours.
> We'll see tomorrow how it looks. I expect it to be "pretty", and hopefully
> have a hard, smooth, finish coat on it.
>
> I don't know how to evaluate the durability of the coating except to use
> it. I may let it sit overnight in the yard with gasoline in it or
> something similar to see if there's any deterioration. It not, then it
> will be time to install it and hope.
>
> I'm not doing this completely in the blind. A lot of 'net research
> revealed that a lot of different people report having good luck using a
> wide variety of paints inside engines. Rustoleum seems to be a favorite.
> While I have used various of their products over the years, I'm generally
> not a fan, so I explicitly chose another brand -- which I just happened to
> have on hand.
>
> Rest assured, everyone will hear about it if it costs me a transmission
> some years down the road. :-)
>
> Ken H.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
If you fill the pan with gas you'll likely have no paint in the morning.
Duplicolor engine enamel is great stuff but long term gas exposure is an issue. I've had it flake off of properly prepared engines when the carb
starts leaking heavily. (motorcycle)

I'd fill it with atf, since that's all it's going to see and let it sit for a week or so and check it out.
--
Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455
 
Thanks for that experienced report, Justin. I'll try ATF. In fact, I'll
go ahead and drain the transmission into the "new" pan and let it set until
I'm ready to refill before the next trip in a couple of weeks. If it looks
"iffy", I'll keep the old pan (which is one of the Toronado tow option pans
with fore-aft tubes through the bottom for cooling).

Ken H.

> If you fill the pan with gas you'll likely have no paint in the morning.
> Duplicolor engine enamel is great stuff but long term gas exposure is an
> issue. I've had it flake off of properly prepared engines when the carb
> starts leaking heavily. (motorcycle)
>
> I'd fill it with atf, since that's all it's going to see and let it sit
> for a week or so and check it out.
> --
> Justin Brady
> http://www.thegmcrv.com/
> 1976 Palm Beach 455
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Ken,

Keep in mind that the pan may react differently when it's got HOT ATF in it.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 9:49 AM
To: GMC Mail List
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] porous aluminum tranny pan

Thanks for that experienced report, Justin. I'll try ATF. In fact, I'll
go ahead and drain the transmission into the "new" pan and let it set until
I'm ready to refill before the next trip in a couple of weeks. If it looks
"iffy", I'll keep the old pan (which is one of the Toronado tow option pans
with fore-aft tubes through the bottom for cooling).

Ken H.
 
> Karen, Glyptal is an electrical insulator, but not a heat insulator. I have
> a probe in my Ragusa pan, and the transmission fluid never exceeds 160
> degrees in the pan. So, i would say that your concerns about it insulating
> the fluid from the cooling fins are of little consequence.

Thanks Jim. I was concerned about the glyptal being able to handle the heat of our application,
so your observation is helpful. I recall Manny saying something about seeing 300F temps in there
at one point, though I can't remember where in the system. That made me concerned the glyptal might not hold up to a
heavy vehicle going up and down big hills with a towd... I think there are alternative products that can
handle the heat and the ATF, but I haven't found a definitive enough version yet. "Silver Seal Fluid Weld"
can supposedly do the job, but it appears to be a thick paste, is just as expensive as glyptal, but
can be bought in smaller quantities.

It appears virtually all modern aluminum cast automotive parts are pre-sealed by various industrial processes,
but those don't typically lend themselves to DIY work. I've also read that in the past, GM, etc, used epoxy paste
or RTF for leaky castings. A paint would be a lot easier. I'll be very interested to hear how Ken's experiment turns out.

thanks,
Karen
1975 26'
 
> Thanks Jim. I was concerned about the glyptal being able to handle the heat of our application,
> so your observation is helpful. I recall Manny saying something about seeing 300F temps in there
> at one point, though I can't remember where in the system. That made me concerned the glyptal might not hold up to a
> heavy vehicle going up and down big hills with a towd... I think there are alternative products that can
> handle the heat and the ATF, but I haven't found a definitive enough version yet. "Silver Seal Fluid Weld"
> can supposedly do the job, but it appears to be a thick paste, is just as expensive as glyptal, but
> can be bought in smaller quantities.
>
> It appears virtually all modern aluminum cast automotive parts are pre-sealed by various industrial processes,
> but those don't typically lend themselves to DIY work. I've also read that in the past, GM, etc, used epoxy paste
> or RTF for leaky castings. A paint would be a lot easier. I'll be very interested to hear how Ken's experiment turns out.
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1975 26'

Karen,

The processes used to seal porous castings is costly and time consuming (the same thing as costly to manufacturing). Unfortunately, porous aluminum
or magnesium castings are relatively easy to make, but they are not at all desirable. So, most of our casting suppliers (4 total, but one has gone
under - that is the one I worked for a division of) set up testing rigs that use high pressure air and a devices to determine leak rate. If even a
small portion of the population does not pass, they all get coated. While this is happening, manufacturing is screaming about everything and the
clients (me this last time) are just sitting there and pointing to the contract that says "finished castings shall not leak fluids at a detectable
level".

I am personally fond of water glass (sodium silicate) as a sealant because I have never seen in fail once the impregnation process is complete. It
has no temperature or solubility issues that I know of.

Matt

--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Karen,

I just installed my new ragusa pan after coating it with Glyptal. Bought a quart, used a little tiny bit for the three coats. I looked for small empty
cans to divide what I had left in, but couldn't find anything that I didn't have to buy in bulk. Anyway, I have enough glyptal red paint to do quite a
few pans, I'd be glad to share it if someone has a good way to do it. Shipping the quart can around from person to person is probably the slowest and
most expensive way to do that, but it would work.

Send me an e-mail if you are interested.

Aaron

--
78 Royale, rear dinette
 
I don't know how much would be needed for a tranny pan, but electronic parts sellers usually carry small bottles of the from General Cement (GC) that hold maybe one liquid ounce. I haven't had any in several decades.

Mac in OKC, OK
"The Money Pit"
'76 ex Palm Beach

Sent from my iPhone

Karen,

I just installed my new ragusa pan after coating it with Glyptal. Bought a quart, used a little tiny bit for the three coats. I looked for small empty
cans to divide what I had left in, but couldn't find anything that I didn't have to buy in bulk. Anyway, I have enough glyptal red paint to do quite a
few pans, I'd be glad to share it if someone has a good way to do it. Shipping the quart can around from person to person is probably the slowest and
most expensive way to do that, but it would work.

Send me an e-mail if you are interested.

Aaron

--
78 Royale, rear dinette

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
> I am personally fond of water glass (sodium silicate) as a sealant because I have never seen in fail once the impregnation process is complete.
> It has no temperature or solubility issues that I know of.

I'd seen some mention that water glass doesn't play well with aluminum due to different rates of expansion.
Any thoughts on that?

thanks,
Karen
1975 26'
 
Ken,

Put tranny fluid in the pan, put it back in the oven and bring it up to operating temp, if the outside surface is dry then it should be ok.

Whatever substance is used to seal the inside surface, the gasket surface must also be sealed with it,or some weeping can occur from there.

Aluminum sand castings when heated are porous, aluminum die castings are not.

> Thanks for that experienced report, Justin. I'll try ATF. In fact, I'll
> go ahead and drain the transmission into the "new" pan and let it set until
> I'm ready to refill before the next trip in a couple of weeks. If it looks
> "iffy", I'll keep the old pan (which is one of the Toronado tow option pans
> with fore-aft tubes through the bottom for cooling).
>
> Ken H.
>
>

>
> > If you fill the pan with gas you'll likely have no paint in the morning.
> > Duplicolor engine enamel is great stuff but long term gas exposure is an
> > issue. I've had it flake off of properly prepared engines when the carb
> > starts leaking heavily. (motorcycle)
> >
> > I'd fill it with atf, since that's all it's going to see and let it sit
> > for a week or so and check it out.
> > --
> > Justin Brady
> > http://www.thegmcrv.com/
> > 1976 Palm Beach 455
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

--
”When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided.”

Adrien & Jenny Genesoto
75 Glenbrook 26-3
Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6
 
If I'd had any idea that small an amount of glyptal would be enough, I'd
have ordered the 225 mL (7.6 oz) bottle from Amazon Prime for $21.51. That
would probably be as cheap and certainly less trouble than your proposed
transhipment.

Since I've already embarked on my own experiment, I'll continue it. I just
drained about 1/2 a Ragusa pan of ATF from the GMC and placed it in a 250*F
oven for 5 hours. I'll check for leakage after that cools overnight, then
clean it thoroughly and examine the paint for changes.

Ken H.

> Karen,
>
> I just installed my new ragusa pan after coating it with Glyptal. Bought a
> quart, used a little tiny bit for the three coats. I looked for small empty
> cans to divide what I had left in, but couldn't find anything that I
> didn't have to buy in bulk. Anyway, I have enough glyptal red paint to do
> quite a
> few pans, I'd be glad to share it if someone has a good way to do it.
> Shipping the quart can around from person to person is probably the slowest
> and
> most expensive way to do that, but it would work.
>
 
> > I am personally fond of water glass (sodium silicate) as a sealant because I have never seen in fail once the impregnation process is
> > complete. It has no temperature or solubility issues that I know of.
>
>
> I'd seen some mention that water glass doesn't play well with aluminum due to different rates of expansion.
> Any thoughts on that?
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1975 26'

Karen,

Your concern is well founded, but at Imtermet (RIP), it was applied as a water-weight viscosity and vacuum impregnated. Then the excess was blown off
all the exposed surfaces. This part was the timing gear cover for the inline 6 International engines. Intermet finally lost the contract and filed.


Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
> I found this stuff on Amazon. Maybe the same stuff?
>
> https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-Insulating-Varnish-Bottle/dp/B00S4H8V1Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506304489&sr=8-1&keywords=glyptol
> il-bullets
>
> Karen

Yes, same stuff. This is a class H insulation. It will maintain it's electrical insulating properties up to 180C/356F. "Glyptal" is used to paint
the inside of utility oil filled transformers. Transformers will not get to 180C but neither will the interior surface of your trans pan as it is air
cooled on the outside.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
 
> > I found this stuff on Amazon. Maybe the same stuff?
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-Insulating-Varnish-Bottle/dp/B00S4H8V1Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506304489&sr=8-1&keywords=glyptol
> > il-bullets
> >
> > Karen
>
>
> Yes, same stuff. This is a class H insulation. It will maintain it's electrical insulating properties up to 180C/356F. "Glyptal" is used to
> paint the inside of utility oil filled transformers. Transformers will not get to 180C but neither will the interior surface of your trans pan as
> it is air cooled on the outside.


I noticed it seemed to have a higher temp rating than glyptal, which is good if its otherwise the same (alkyd paint).
Glyptal only shows 130C, which is odd since you're supposed to bake it at about that temp for 2hrs. Maybe just a
marketing issue. Easier to buy a small bottle of this than deal with a quart can, partial or otherwise.

Thank you Aaron for your kind offer. If I were nearby, I'd take you up on that, but I think the expense/hassle
of shipping probably outweighs the utility if I can use a small bottle of the equivalent stuff. Don't know why
Glyptal doesn't package it in anything smaller.

thanks,
Karen
1975 26'
 
Hard to compete with Amazon. I painted 3 light coats, but even if you do 3 heavy coats 7 ounces should be more than enough. "Heavy" in terms of
applying a coat of paint, of course.
--
78 Royale, rear dinette
 
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