More new engine follies

After some thought, it behaves like there's a restriction or blockage somewhere. Same time distance cruising it hits 220. I gave it an hour and
drove it home watching the temp go up. It's boiling into the overflow, and sucking it back down, so the recovery system is working. Which means the
cap is working, and that it boils right around 220 degrees means the same plus there's some glycol in it. It's what was taken out of the old engine,
plus added as needed pure glycol. I shall attack in the morning with my temp gun and (probably) a new vocabulary. Brand new Cardone roller pump.
New fan which at idle comes on properly driven by the injector. At idle, temp rises to set point, fan spools up, temp retreats. Just what you'd
expect. This installation does not have an oil cooler - has OEM trans cooler. Radiator was recored about a year ago.

I'm open to ideas.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
 
Did you check the thermostat ? It sounds as if the stat is not opening. Put it in a pan of water on the stove with a thermometer (even a candy thermometer will work. )

Make sure it opens before it boils.

Emery Stora

>
> After some thought, it behaves like there's a restriction or blockage somewhere. Same time distance cruising it hits 220. I gave it an hour and
> drove it home watching the temp go up. It's boiling into the overflow, and sucking it back down, so the recovery system is working. Which means the
> cap is working, and that it boils right around 220 degrees means the same plus there's some glycol in it. It's what was taken out of the old engine,
> plus added as needed pure glycol. I shall attack in the morning with my temp gun and (probably) a new vocabulary. Brand new Cardone roller pump.
> New fan which at idle comes on properly driven by the injector. At idle, temp rises to set point, fan spools up, temp retreats. Just what you'd
> expect. This installation does not have an oil cooler - has OEM trans cooler. Radiator was recored about a year ago.
>
> I'm open to ideas.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Sprinter fan kit - won't go but one way. 'Stat removal is next.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
 
Leaking head gasket between cooling system and and cylinder. Get a cooling system pressure tester and on a COLD engine pump it up and see if it holds
pressure at around 7-9 psi. If it leaks down cold you have a cooling system leak which is probably a head gasket. It is an easy test to do.

It is just a guess but I have seen it several times.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
I'll see if Advance has a loaner pressure tester. Thermostat test shows it works correctly, 180 and it's open. Strange looking 'stat, the outer cup
retracts when it gets hot.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
 
Johnny,

Unsure on the type of thermostat that you are currently using, but if it is a stock style and not a Robertshaw High Performance type thermostat then you can be creating you own problems as a stock style thermostat does not flow enough coolant and are subject to failure, just ask Jim B.

By Stock thermostat I mean this type:

https://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SearchResultsPageCmd?Ntt=thermostats&requestYear=&storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&langId=-1&year=&make=&model=&submodel=&engine=&Nrpp=&No=&persistYmm=false

By Robertshaw High Performance I mean this type:

https://www.gmcrvparts.com/product-p/gm8-006-14-180.htm
https://www.gmcrvparts.com/product-p/gm8-006-14-195.htm
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-4364
https://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SearchResultsPageCmd?Ntt=mrg-4364&requestYear=&storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&langId=-1&year=&make=&model=&submodel=&engine=&Nrpp=&No=&persistYmm=false

Notice the difference in construction of the units. The stock style unit is limited on the amount of flow that it can pass. The amount of heat that needs to be removed by the coolant requires a higher performance type of thermostat, look at the size radiator that we have for heat rejection. I have included both the 180 and 195 thermostats as GMC owner have run both. I personally have run only the 180 degree unit over the last 19 years as my thoughts that I want to remove as much heat as I can with the 180 deg unit. Some with fuel injection may run the 195 deg unit.

The High Performance type thermostat are available at most auto part store.

I have presented the various information available and the choice is yours to make!

Regards,

J.R. Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMC Eastern States Charter Member
GMCMI
78 GMC Buskirk 29.5’ Stretch
75 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan

>
> I'll see if Advance has a loaner pressure tester. Thermostat test shows it works correctly, 180 and it's open. Strange looking 'stat, the outer cup
> retracts when it gets hot.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
>
 
I found over the years that I am a proponent of a 195 thermostat. I feel it holds temp much more stable, and keeps moisture out of the oil.
When running the 180 thermostat i found big swings on the temp gauge and the IR temp readings of the radiator higher. I think it adds strain
on the cooling system to constantly try to maintain an engine temp 15 degrees cooler.

But i know plenty of gmc's who run the 180 thermostat.

One other thing to try is a flow test on the thermostaT. Ray E had a new thermostat that when the thermostat was closed. Water flowed through it
easily. But his issue was opposite, his engine never got warm enough.
--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
 
Do NOT buy one from Harbor Freight. They do not include the correct adapter for out radiator filler.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Triple check the cap. The outer seal is good as you have proven fluid leaves and returns. But it might not be holding any pressure. Usually the tiny
spring on the poppet return valve has failed. Don't be fooled buy the pressure tester tool. That usually puts the cap inverted during test and can
give a false GOOD due to gravity. I just squeeze the upper hose cold and you can feel the valve close and offer resistance as a go/no go test.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
I am confused, I am sure Robert-Shaw is out of business and has been for a while. I was under the impression that the Mr. Gasket thermostat was
making the Robert-Shaw style of thermostat and was the preferred thermostat. What did I miss?

> Triple check the cap. The outer seal is good as you have proven fluid leaves and returns. But it might not be holding any pressure. Usually the
> tiny spring on the poppet return valve has failed. Don't be fooled by the pressure tester tool. That usually puts the cap inverted during test and
> can give a false GOOD due to gravity. I just squeeze the upper hose cold and you can feel the valve close and offer resistance as a go/no go test.

--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
 
Not only yes, but, hell yes. BLUE LOCTITE, ONLY. If you use red, and I have
anything to do with loosening those bolts, I will be a very unhappy
technician. Prone to use the top rung of the charging ladder.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or.

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 10:02 AM THOMAS R WHITTON via Gmclist <

> Is the lock washer on the inner bolt necessary if using Loktite?
>
> Tom Whitton
> Paducah, Ky
> 26 ft updated GMC
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
> Is the lock washer on the inner bolt necessary if using Loktite?
>
> Tom Whitton

I know that I am going to be disagreeing with some, but the conventional SAE split washer lock washers will be of little value with the Gr.12 (aka
MS20K) DHHCS (Double hex head cap screws) in this application. Those lock washers work only when they can get a bite into both the fastener and the
body. The hardness of the MS20K DHHCS is about 75Rc. A file is only 80Rc. So, not much chance there. But, if you do not pull the fasteners to full
tension (aka torque) your ass is in line for a big disappointment. Loktite is advised, but be sure to use the cleaner.

I have never observed one of these fasteners yielding during assembly. None the less. I never reuse then. They are so close to proof load and they
have just about zero yield curve. (See Below)

Because I am a little paranoid. (OK, seriously paranoid) I carry a collection of the MS 20K DHHCS, the correct socket and a torque wrench as part of
the coach's standard kit. (Please note: We have a 23 and storage is a premium.) The big assed socket for the outer end is usually available
somewhere.

In the yet to be published account of the adventure this spring, I had to replace the Stbd (right) drive axle on the flat of the very friendly GMC
owner Duane Webber in Ellorie (?) SC. I was very glad to be there, but that is about a two/three beer story on its own. If you run into him, thank
him for me.

This application should not be taken lightly. A failure here could ruin several days of excursion if you are lucky.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
There are times the bolt will hit the final drive housing ad the washer
does avoid that.

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 5:22 PM Matt Colie via Gmclist <

> > Is the lock washer on the inner bolt necessary if using Loktite?
> >
> > Tom Whitton
>
> I know that I am going to be disagreeing with some, but the conventional
> SAE split washer lock washers will be of little value with the Gr.12 (aka
> MS20K) DHHCS (Double hex head cap screws) in this application. Those lock
> washers work only when they can get a bite into both the fastener and the
> body. The hardness of the MS20K DHHCS is about 75Rc. A file is only
> 80Rc. So, not much chance there. But, if you do not pull the fasteners to
> full
> tension (aka torque) your ass is in line for a big disappointment.
> Loktite is advised, but be sure to use the cleaner.
>
> I have never observed one of these fasteners yielding during assembly.
> None the less. I never reuse then. They are so close to proof load and they
> have just about zero yield curve. (See Below)
>
> Because I am a little paranoid. (OK, seriously paranoid) I carry a
> collection of the MS 20K DHHCS, the correct socket and a torque wrench as
> part of
> the coach's standard kit. (Please note: We have a 23 and storage is a
> premium.) The big assed socket for the outer end is usually available
> somewhere.
>
> In the yet to be published account of the adventure this spring, I had to
> replace the Stbd (right) drive axle on the flat of the very friendly GMC
> owner Duane Webber in Ellorie (?) SC. I was very glad to be there, but
> that is about a two/three beer story on its own. If you run into him, thank
> him for me.
>
> This application should not be taken lightly. A failure here could ruin
> several days of excursion if you are lucky.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
 
The lock washers fitted on those 12 point special bolts are just as special
as the bolts. I agree with Matt most of the time, but not in this
situation. Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean that the WHOLE WORLD
isn't out to get you. (Grin)
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 5:29 PM Jim Kanomata via Gmclist <

> There are times the bolt will hit the final drive housing ad the washer
> does avoid that.
>
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 5:22 PM Matt Colie via Gmclist <

>

> > > Is the lock washer on the inner bolt necessary if using Loktite?
> > >
> > > Tom Whitton
> >
> > I know that I am going to be disagreeing with some, but the conventional
> > SAE split washer lock washers will be of little value with the Gr.12 (aka
> > MS20K) DHHCS (Double hex head cap screws) in this application. Those
> lock
> > washers work only when they can get a bite into both the fastener and the
> > body. The hardness of the MS20K DHHCS is about 75Rc. A file is only
> > 80Rc. So, not much chance there. But, if you do not pull the fasteners
> to
> > full
> > tension (aka torque) your ass is in line for a big disappointment.
> > Loktite is advised, but be sure to use the cleaner.
> >
> > I have never observed one of these fasteners yielding during assembly.
> > None the less. I never reuse then. They are so close to proof load and
> they
> > have just about zero yield curve. (See Below)
> >
> > Because I am a little paranoid. (OK, seriously paranoid) I carry a
> > collection of the MS 20K DHHCS, the correct socket and a torque wrench as
> > part of
> > the coach's standard kit. (Please note: We have a 23 and storage is a
> > premium.) The big assed socket for the outer end is usually available
> > somewhere.
> >
> > In the yet to be published account of the adventure this spring, I had to
> > replace the Stbd (right) drive axle on the flat of the very friendly GMC
> > owner Duane Webber in Ellorie (?) SC. I was very glad to be there, but
> > that is about a two/three beer story on its own. If you run into him,
> thank
> > him for me.
> >
> > This application should not be taken lightly. A failure here could ruin
> > several days of excursion if you are lucky.
> >
> > Matt
> > --
> > Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> > Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> > OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> > SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Hi Tom. Yes and yes.
The OEM bolts were shouldered and the threads did not go all the way up the bolts and without the extra thick lock washers that would thread out
before clamping tight. If you use the replacement bolts that are threaded all the way to the head without the thick lock washers you can hit the
housing.. they are special lock washers and are there for a reason. New Lock washers and locktite and 70lb torque.

> Is the lock washer on the inner bolt necessary if using Loktite?
>
> Tom Whitton
> Paducah, Ky
> 26 ft updated GMC
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
 
Jim and Matt,
I get both of your points.  Basically, take no chances,  wear your belt and your suspenders.  My thought is to use both a lock washer and blue Loctite on the inner CV joint bolts.  (Mine presently have neither but that's about to change.)  The lock washers may not dig in and do much but they won't hurt anything and may help a little.  You guys agree?  
It would be hell for the CV joint to sling apart.
Tom Whitton26 foot updated GMCPaducah, KY 
 
All all costs don't use split lock washers.
Under high load they tent to open up.
--
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
 
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