Moog K5266 Cam Adjusters fail at WSM torque spec.

B

billvv

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2015
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The Moog K5266 and are M10.9 bolts with torque ratings at 53 ft-lbs dry and 40 ft-lbs oiled. The OEM bolts are M8 rated at 120 ft-lbs dry and 90
ft-lbs oiled. They will strip if torqued at the WSM spec. Ask me how I know!
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
> The Moog K5266 and are M10.9 bolts with torque ratings at 53 ft-lbs dry and 40 ft-lbs oiled. The OEM bolts are M8 rated at 120 ft-lbs dry and 90
> ft-lbs oiled. They will strip if torqued at the WSM spec. Ask me how I know!

which ones stripped, both the Moog and OEM? and what is WSM spec.?
 
The Moogs strip if tightened to the WSM torque of 90 ft-lbs.

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
WSM = Work Shop Manual

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

>
> The Moogs strip if tightened to the WSM torque of 90 ft-lbs.
>
> --
> Bill Van Vlack
> '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
> November 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
> The Moog K5266 and are M10.9 bolts with torque ratings at 53 ft-lbs dry and 40 ft-lbs oiled. The OEM bolts are M8 rated at 120 ft-lbs dry and 90
> ft-lbs oiled. They will strip if torqued at the WSM spec. Ask me how I know!

Bill,

When you say stripped, are you indicating a thread failure or a tensile failure of the long fastener?

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
The bolt didn't break, if that's what you mean. I can see flat threads on the bolt, so I assume that's why the tightening the nut with the torque
wrench got easier after about 80 ft-lbs.
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
Bill, are you working on the upper control arms, the camber and caster
adjustments? Did you replace the OEM bolts and nuts with the aftermarket
stuff, in a box labeled with MOOG manufacturing? If you did, I have some
advice. Some of that stuff is Crap-ola with a Capitol C. If you look at the
OEM bolts carefully, and the flat ground surface looks even slightly
twisted, DO NOT USE THEM AGAIN.
Some trunk monkey has used a pneumatic wrench on them. They have
already failed the "torque to yield" stress test. If you try to torque them
to specs, they either will break off, or the threads will strip. Those are
a one time use fastener.
So, that leaves the replacement MOOG stuff. What is a person supposed
to do with cheap, foreign made replacements? If those bolts did not have
fully one third of their diameter ground away, that size might torque
safely to 45 foot pounds or so. But, 1/3 of them is ground away. You must
account for that, and reduce your tightening force accordingly. Be
absolutely sure that all the road tar and welding spatter is cleaned away
from the spaces where the snail cam washers seat. Don't lube that area when
you reassemble. Absolutely use long nuts and new lock washers when you
re-assemble. Only final torque them one time, and pray. I have had new
stuff fail at less than 50 ft. Lbs. Torque. Use blue loctite for more peace
of mind if you prefer.
I long for the days when you could purchase these at your GM dealer,
and they were made in the USA, but alas, those days are long gone.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 8:47 AM Bill Van Vlack
wrote:

> The bolt didn't break, if that's what you mean. I can see flat threads on
> the bolt, so I assume that's why the tightening the nut with the torque
> wrench got easier after about 80 ft-lbs.
> --
> Bill Van Vlack
> '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath,
> Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o
> mid
> November 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Let me know these things as we communicat directly to Moog reps and they do
respond.
Need to know that the reps know me as I see them at shows and give them
feedback. Sometimes they do not like what I say, but respond positivly.
Get me the detail and I'll get it resolved.

> Bill, are you working on the upper control arms, the camber and caster
> adjustments? Did you replace the OEM bolts and nuts with the aftermarket
> stuff, in a box labeled with MOOG manufacturing? If you did, I have some
> advice. Some of that stuff is Crap-ola with a Capitol C. If you look at the
> OEM bolts carefully, and the flat ground surface looks even slightly
> twisted, DO NOT USE THEM AGAIN.
> Some trunk monkey has used a pneumatic wrench on them. They have
> already failed the "torque to yield" stress test. If you try to torque them
> to specs, they either will break off, or the threads will strip. Those are
> a one time use fastener.
> So, that leaves the replacement MOOG stuff. What is a person supposed
> to do with cheap, foreign made replacements? If those bolts did not have
> fully one third of their diameter ground away, that size might torque
> safely to 45 foot pounds or so. But, 1/3 of them is ground away. You must
> account for that, and reduce your tightening force accordingly. Be
> absolutely sure that all the road tar and welding spatter is cleaned away
> from the spaces where the snail cam washers seat. Don't lube that area when
> you reassemble. Absolutely use long nuts and new lock washers when you
> re-assemble. Only final torque them one time, and pray. I have had new
> stuff fail at less than 50 ft. Lbs. Torque. Use blue loctite for more peace
> of mind if you prefer.
> I long for the days when you could purchase these at your GM dealer,
> and they were made in the USA, but alas, those days are long gone.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
>
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 8:47 AM Bill Van Vlack

>
> > The bolt didn't break, if that's what you mean. I can see flat threads on
> > the bolt, so I assume that's why the tightening the nut with the torque
> > wrench got easier after about 80 ft-lbs.
> > --
> > Bill Van Vlack
> > '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath,
> > Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner
> a/o
> > mid
> > November 2015.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
 
Thanks, Jim. Great advice . What is the reason for no grease?
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
What kind of additional detail do you need JimK?
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
Bill, the reason for no grease is to get those washers to stay put after
torquing. Friction on the washers helps maintain the camber and caster
adjustments as set. As far as the threads go on lubrication, a bit of lube
won't hurt, just don't use never sieze, it changes the torque values.
Jim Hupy

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 9:58 AM Bill Van Vlack
wrote:

> What kind of additional detail do you need JimK?
> --
> Bill Van Vlack
> '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath,
> Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o
> mid
> November 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Get me the part # off the Moog box and roughly when you aquired them.
I have been guilty of knowing this problem, but forgot all about doing
anything a I must have been too busy working on our Air Filter Housings
projects

> Bill, the reason for no grease is to get those washers to stay put after
> torquing. Friction on the washers helps maintain the camber and caster
> adjustments as set. As far as the threads go on lubrication, a bit of lube
> won't hurt, just don't use never sieze, it changes the torque values.
> Jim Hupy
>
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 9:58 AM Bill Van Vlack

>
> > What kind of additional detail do you need JimK?
> > --
> > Bill Van Vlack
> > '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath,
> > Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner
> a/o
> > mid
> > November 2015.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
 
90 ft-lbs seems like a lot of torque for a bolt that's missing threads
from two sides that are ground flat, to hold the eccentric washer.

--
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
 
Yep. One of those "common sense" ain't as common as it used to be,
moments. About twice 2 much.
Jim Hupy

> 90 ft-lbs seems like a lot of torque for a bolt that's missing threads
> from two sides that are ground flat, to hold the eccentric washer.
>
> --
> Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
> 1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
> 455 F Block, G heads
> San Jose
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Jim K.. The part number is Moog K5266 per the title. I bought them three months ago.

Jim H. I resemble that remark. Continuing as accused, would that concept apply to the OEM adjusters as well? The Moog and OEM have threads missing on
one side only, FWIW.
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
Bill, my response was intended to be a smart a%% remark, and no attempt to
reflect on you or any other GMCer was intended. I have personally broken
both aftermarket and OEM bolts that were rusted, even after soaking them
for days with a variety of penetrating oils. They ALWAYS FAIL right where
the flat side intersects the head. That is an apparent stress point created
when they were manufactured. That is why they are considered to be a "once
and done" use item. The metric ones are slightly smaller in diameter, and
usually come bright plated. I think that the genuine GM parts have a
superior heat treatment process than the offshore pieces, but that also
varies with individual parts. In any event 90 ft lbs is too much torque for
any of them. More like 45 or 50. Good luck.
Jim Hupy

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 1:55 PM Bill Van Vlack
wrote:

> Jim K.. The part number is Moog K5266 per the title. I bought them three
> months ago.
>
> Jim H. I resemble that remark. Continuing as accused, would that concept
> apply to the OEM adjusters as well? The Moog and OEM have threads missing on
> one side only, FWIW.
> --
> Bill Van Vlack
> '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath,
> Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o
> mid
> November 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
One of the GMC shops machine Grade 8 1/2-13 bolts to fit the OEM adjusters, and use tall Grade 8 nuts. Puts a spacer between the washer and the bolt
head so that a wrench can reach the head in the '75+ coaches. Tightens the heck out of them.

The Moog, to me, are clearly inferior to OEM. Weaker bolt, flat rather than cupped (edge) washer, metric bolt smaller diameter than factory. My coach
had one side with these, probably because the original bolts failed and the bolts were no longer available.

I guess this is one of those "don't torque it like the WSM says" kind of things.
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
Jim H.
I appreciate the humor. I'll bet that the original equipment bolts were much stronger.
I've stripped the threads off of the replacement parts trying to get to 90 ft-lbs.

The newer parts are probably made out of low-alloy metal.

--
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
 
'WSM Spec' had me thinking it was some sort of industry standard or something lol, would have never guessed a service manual.

that seems like an awfully small bolt for the job it has. I would want to find a replacement that could take the FSM (Factory Service Manual lol)
spec. if at all possible.

FWIW a friend that worked at a GM dealership once told me (this was over ten years ago now) that they had a service bulletin that specifically warned
them not to use outside fastener/bolt sources due to the counterfeit hardware appearing at various places that had higher grade markings on them than
they actually were (chinese)
 
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