Yeah, I was told by the PO it matched but the base was set to 0 degrees on the distributor. in my mind I thought this was odd thinking it should be more like 8 degrees, maybe I miss heard when he said it. I have a new timing light on it's way (jungle site) that should be delivered sometime this afternoon, I want to verify this. I also need to pull the distributor anyway and replace the seal at the base due to a small oil leak there. I will need the timing light for that as well.
Looking for help and support with EBL Flash system
- Thread starter dbrannon79
- Start date
I forgot to mention while I was under the dash tracing wires off the ECM looking at the cut wires that is supposed to be going to the DRAC (VSSB) I also found other cut wires on the ECM. I need to look up what these are for and if they need to be connected to anything on the truck. a couple of the wires are capped with heat shrink, others are just cut about 3-4 inches from the ECM connectors.
ECM is a 1227747 from Dynamic EFI
Pins on connectors that are cut are...
A2 - orange/black wire
A10 - brown/white (VSS Signal)
B6 - purple
C8 - lt blue
C15 - lt green
D15 - blue
ECM is a 1227747 from Dynamic EFI
Pins on connectors that are cut are...
A2 - orange/black wire
A10 - brown/white (VSS Signal)
B6 - purple
C8 - lt blue
C15 - lt green
D15 - blue
He was probably using the pins to deliver a signal to the EBL 0-5v analog ports.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SWILcowzDfgUBF2EGgYO-8ZEkuTa3Lzn/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14nVYI5UFWX4iziRpLvAAEusB2XQM7gwQ/view?usp=drive_link
Well the timing light arrived and now I'm even more curious as to what is happening here! this might be dumb on my part, but the one wire connector up by the distributor seems to do nothing, I disconnected it thinking it was for the spark advance.
if I am doing this right, I am seeing it steady at about 16-17 degrees regardless if that connector is unplugged or not and it stays there even revving the engine some. what I did (hope I am doing this right) dial on the timing light at the zero mark I cannot find the mark on the crank pulley, so I slowly turn the dial until I start seeing the mark on the pulley. keep going until the mark is on the zero mark on the timing cover. look at the dial and it's sitting right between 16 and 17.
Here are some photos and I uploaded a short video too incase my phone camera didn't catch it.
first photo is the single connector by the distributor - is this the EST that needs to be unplugged to check timing? it does nothing, no effect on the engine. last photo is where I stopped turning the dial to get the mark to zero. Then I linked the video.
if I am doing this right, I am seeing it steady at about 16-17 degrees regardless if that connector is unplugged or not and it stays there even revving the engine some. what I did (hope I am doing this right) dial on the timing light at the zero mark I cannot find the mark on the crank pulley, so I slowly turn the dial until I start seeing the mark on the pulley. keep going until the mark is on the zero mark on the timing cover. look at the dial and it's sitting right between 16 and 17.
Here are some photos and I uploaded a short video too incase my phone camera didn't catch it.
first photo is the single connector by the distributor - is this the EST that needs to be unplugged to check timing? it does nothing, no effect on the engine. last photo is where I stopped turning the dial to get the mark to zero. Then I linked the video.
I tried both links but it took me to a google page to request access. I requested both as a viewer.
Yes, that should be the connector you disconnect to disable the electronic spark advance. Then you can read and set the desired initial advance. This connector should connect to pin D5 (bypass) on the 7747 as BillVV showed on this wiring diagram he posted.
This setting should be the same in the EBL SA Initial Spark Advance setting in the BIN.
So I guess I need to trace that back to make sure it has connection to D5. since nothing changed, the light was showing the same reading (16-17 degrees) connected or not maybe there is a short or something isn't wired correctly.
I would think I should be seeing a difference on top of even revving the throttle it fluctuated a tiny bit but stayed right there within a mark or two.
I also went back and double checked the bin in tunerpro just to make sure I wasn't seeing things to verify the SA initial was at zero. in the documentation this number and where the distributor is set at are supposed to be matching if I read it correctly.
Once I figure out the spark advance connector issue I will need to set this to match what I see on the timing light.
Once I figure out the spark advance connector issue I will need to set this to match what I see on the timing light.
The idea is that with the wire disconnected, the only thing affecting the timing of the engine is how far the distributor is twisted. If you loosen the clamp under the dist. so that it will spin you will see it advance or retard on the timing light as you move the dist.
The SA numbers shown on the EBL parameters and table are added to the base timing to set advance. If your engine is at 16 deg base advance and the EBL thinks it's at zero, you are running 16deg retarded from what the EBL wants.
That makes sense. This might be why we couldn’t maintain speed in third gear and seemingly felt under powered. We didn’t hear any rattling or unusual timing noise from the engine though.
What would be my best course of action here?
I’m still learning how the EBL works. My first guess would be to first make sure the connector for the spark advance is working correctly then twist the distributor setting the base timing to about 8 degrees. Set that in the SA Initial for the EBL and go from there? Or am I going at this wrong.
8* of initial timing should be fine for your application. That will be the timing the engine gets when cranking. Once the engine RPM gets to 400+, then 5V is applied to the Bypass (D5) pin which tells the ignition module to use the EBL commands for spark advance.
There is another setting in the BIN which determines whether the EBL uses the spark table or a fixed advance while at idle.
There is another setting in the BIN which determines whether the EBL uses the spark table or a fixed advance while at idle.
Sounds right. Search the RESOURCES section of this site for 'EBL'; you'll find lots of information.
Ok, I confirmed the connector for the ECT is working! I connected my laptop and saw it had set a code 42 with the connector unplugged. I also found out that I have to shut off the engine and restart it once I connect the EST back up for the spark advance to work again.
I set the distributor at 8 degrees and then set the SA-Initial SA in the bin to 8.00 which when saved changed to 8.09. pulled up the idle state SA and IdlSA option word 2 - bit 1 and see that it is set so it will use the idle state SA when idling. then opened up the current timing map SA - Main Table. I was mistaken on what the table min and max was. it seems that the PO must have built it somehow. it goes from a lowest starting point of 1.41 to a high of 50.98. idk if this is right or not, but it's what is loaded into the EBL.
I will re-flash the updated bin with the only thing I changed is the initial SA from 0.00 to 8.09 and see.
I set the distributor at 8 degrees and then set the SA-Initial SA in the bin to 8.00 which when saved changed to 8.09. pulled up the idle state SA and IdlSA option word 2 - bit 1 and see that it is set so it will use the idle state SA when idling. then opened up the current timing map SA - Main Table. I was mistaken on what the table min and max was. it seems that the PO must have built it somehow. it goes from a lowest starting point of 1.41 to a high of 50.98. idk if this is right or not, but it's what is loaded into the EBL.
I will re-flash the updated bin with the only thing I changed is the initial SA from 0.00 to 8.09 and see.
do y'all see anything wrong with the main table? 50 degrees advance seems kinda high to me but I'm sure there are other factors, tables and whatnot that subtract or add to this like coolant temp.
the table I posted in an earlier post I can't figure out what file I had open but it was not the one for this truck. it must have been a base tune for a 4.3l. I will download the tune on the truck first and look at it before flashing just to verify, but I have a copy that I originally pulled from the EBL that shows it up in the 50's for the high end.
the table I posted in an earlier post I can't figure out what file I had open but it was not the one for this truck. it must have been a base tune for a 4.3l. I will download the tune on the truck first and look at it before flashing just to verify, but I have a copy that I originally pulled from the EBL that shows it up in the 50's for the high end.
I took the spreadsheet I found on a post from the forum link below and entered what I found online for optimal timing for a 250 l6 with a normal HEI distributor and it calculated out a table that looks much better seemingly falling within the limits I am finding for this engine. what I don't really understand is how the SA main table works in conjunction with all of the other SA settings and weather this is right.
from what I am finding, this engine normally starts out with a base timing of between 6 and 8 degrees, 10-12 degrees for idle advance, and a total advance of 36 to 38 degrees. several sites reference not to go over 38 degrees. Am I on the right track here?
from what I am finding, this engine normally starts out with a base timing of between 6 and 8 degrees, 10-12 degrees for idle advance, and a total advance of 36 to 38 degrees. several sites reference not to go over 38 degrees. Am I on the right track here?
Spark Advance table example needed - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards
DIY PROM - Spark Advance table example needed - Trying to understand the sa tables vs actual engine excelleration vs mph at the foot pedal. Found this graph from older thread here and compared it to my bin which is a lot different. Can there be a good/simple reason?...
www.thirdgen.org
Here is a document written by Bob Rauscher describing how he set spark values when folks were burning proms. The principles apply, and I suppose he developed the EBL from this. It might help to understand what the scalers and tables mean in TunerPro.
Ok, tell me if I am understanding this correctly. to figure out what the total spark advance timing is at a given point I would use the following...
total spark advance = main SA table + (coolant comp value - coolant comp bias) + (IAT comp value - IAT comp bias)
Example: Given engine parameters from .bin file...
Engine idling at 800 rpm with temp of 180 deg f
Distributor base timing set to 8.00deg
below values were taken from what tunerpro is showing in the bin file (photo below)
SA initial set to 8.09deg
SA main @800rpm no load = 26.37deg
SA coolant comp value = 7.03deg
SA coolant comp bias = 9.84deg
SA iat/cts comp value = 9.84deg
SA iat.cts comp bias = 9.84deg
using the formula above...
26.37 + (7.03 - 9.84) + (9.84 - 9.84) = Total SA of 23.56 degrees
total spark advance = main SA table + (coolant comp value - coolant comp bias) + (IAT comp value - IAT comp bias)
Example: Given engine parameters from .bin file...
Engine idling at 800 rpm with temp of 180 deg f
Distributor base timing set to 8.00deg
below values were taken from what tunerpro is showing in the bin file (photo below)
SA initial set to 8.09deg
SA main @800rpm no load = 26.37deg
SA coolant comp value = 7.03deg
SA coolant comp bias = 9.84deg
SA iat/cts comp value = 9.84deg
SA iat.cts comp bias = 9.84deg
using the formula above...
26.37 + (7.03 - 9.84) + (9.84 - 9.84) = Total SA of 23.56 degrees
with the above figures, yesterday evening I had loaded the bin into slot2 of the EBL and ran the engine up to operating temp. gauge was about at mid point and the whatsup app was showing right at 180 degrees coolant temp. Idle was between 750 and 800 rpm.
Connected the timing light and saw the timing marker on the crank sitting at 20 degrees and would momentarily fall to around 15 degrees. this also showed on the whatsup app with the same SA readings. this was all while not touching the throttle allowing the idle solenoid do it's job maintaining idle. the moments when the SA values would fall to around 15 degrees, at the same time idle would fall very slightly but would come right back (not a miss or stumble but just a slow idle decrease and then rise back, this was not a constant up and down, but seemingly random).
Not too worried about the idle fluctuation, but more interested in how to figure what the EBL is doing to sit at the 20 degrees of SA. Or which parameter I missed figuring the math out above in my previous post.
Connected the timing light and saw the timing marker on the crank sitting at 20 degrees and would momentarily fall to around 15 degrees. this also showed on the whatsup app with the same SA readings. this was all while not touching the throttle allowing the idle solenoid do it's job maintaining idle. the moments when the SA values would fall to around 15 degrees, at the same time idle would fall very slightly but would come right back (not a miss or stumble but just a slow idle decrease and then rise back, this was not a constant up and down, but seemingly random).
Not too worried about the idle fluctuation, but more interested in how to figure what the EBL is doing to sit at the 20 degrees of SA. Or which parameter I missed figuring the math out above in my previous post.
Here are some of the constraints for the knock sensor below. But from what I am seeing, idling at 800 rpm and a 0% tps the knock retard should not be included in the formula. Although if it was, the table shows a value of 4.92 degrees for 116 C, at 180 F it would make sense if it was effecting the timing which would give a total SA of 18.64. I'm sure it would immediately go back up when knocks aren't detected. I was seeing a few knock counts at idle, not many though. I think the whatsup app was showing about 40 counts at idle in about a 30 minute time frame though I didn't really pay much attention to them at the time, I was more listening to the engine and watching the timing light and SA values on the screen.
It appears you have the Idle spark advance set to "Fixed" at 20*, rather than using the table. this would account for your approx. 5* difference.
Option word 2, Bit 1 IdlSA is Set. Unclick this if you want the SA to follow the table while at Idle.
I have my motorhome set to a Fixed Idle SA as it seems to idle smoother, but the SA seen at the timing mark still moves around a bit.
