Don't get electrocuted! (was:Temporary Shore Power)

M

mark grady

New member
May 2, 1998
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This discussion raises an interesting question in my mind, that is --
what do the 'dog bone' 50 to 30 amp adapters do with the round pin ground
lead?

I have a dog bone adapter that I often use, and I'll get a meter and see
over the weekend where it goes.

The potential problem for electrocution would occur if the 30 amp circuit
were improperly wired. That's one level of potential problem.

Beyond that, (and I'm just thinking out loud here) I also often use a 220 by
30 amp to 110 by 15 amp adapter. If the 15~20 amp duplex circuit is wired
incorrectly, that would put the 'hot' side of the circuit in the wrong
place.

Darren, that's what got everybody all riled up.

Don't take offense -- none of us want to see you get fried. I read Emery's
response much more literally, *dead* as in not living.

Such a tragedy with the story of the girls... and so easily prevented had
the power source for the camper been a GFI, or they used an in-line GFI.

I just really have to wonder now where the third wire ground is going....
does it make it through this rube goldberg mess? I'd suspect that there are
a lot of us that have used this arrangement over the years, and maybe we
were always 'lucky'.

My wife lost a professional co-worker last summer, (our area's leading
gynecologist) when he was hooking up a small battery charger to a jet-ski.
Such a tragic loss, compounded by the fact that he had replaced the broken
GFI at his home with a 39 cent duplex outlet.

One thing I know for sure, I'm going to get an in-line GFI like we use on
job sites and make it a part of my power supply system. Today.

This is a short extension cord like device that puts a GFI (shock stopper)
in the power system when on 110 shore power at a campground that may not
have GFI's. I'll report back on my findings of availability and price, but I
don't expect to have a problem finding one.

I've worked around power for a long time, AC/DC and RF, and I've already
used up about 7 of my 9 lives. (I chalk this up to the invincibility of
youth, by the way.) An in-line GFI looks like a cheap investment to me.

Just offering my observations.

Mark

| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-gmcmotorhome
| [mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]On Behalf Of
| RickStapls
| Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 3:46 AM
| To: gmcmotorhome
| Subject: Re: GMC: Temporary Shore Power
|
|

|
| > Does this mean that the ground in the panel in the RV be
| grounded to the
| > chassis
| > and not to the shore plug? Does the neutral wire have to be
| connected to
| > shore
| > power? The generator is self explanatory, as the genset can only be
| grounded
| > to
| > the frame. What happens to the ground wire in the shore power plug?
|
| Daren,
| The GROUND wires (bare/green) in the RV are grounded to the
| chassis AND
| through the shore plug ground wire, IIRC. The neutral wire MUST
| be connected
| to shore (if shore power is being used) as it is one half of the
| shore power
| circuit. (Neutral and hot.) (Ignoring the special case of 240V
| appliances
| in the coach.)
| Perhaps the point to be emphasized is that the NEUTRAL and
| GROUND are two
| separate wires with separate functions. The neutral wire is part
| and parcel
| of the power supply circuit. When plugged into 120V power, it
| carries the
| full current being used (with a 240V campsite the current it
| carries varies
| up to the full load.)
| The GROUND wire NEVER carries any current unless there is a problem
| (short-circuit). The ground and neutral are ONLY connected to
| each other at
| the house or campground main entrance, and only there can the neutral be
| considered "ground".
| HTH.
|
| Rick Staples
| '75 Eleganza
| Louisville, CO
|
 
>
> One thing I know for sure, I'm going to get an in-line GFI like we use on
> job sites and make it a part of my power supply system. Today.

Just about all camping supply places(Camping World for one) sell an
inexpensive tester which will fit a 20A outlet. Red and green LED's on
the face tell you if the AC wiring is correct and warns of open or
reversed ground and neutral. Some even have a small volt meter. Well
worth the small price IMO.

Patrick
- --
Patrick Flowers
Mailto:patrick

The GMC Motorhome Page
http://www.gmcmotorhome.com
 
I need some help on understanding this GFI subject... (I have a 74 GMC)

>One thing I know for sure, I'm going to get an in-line GFI like we use
>on job sites and make it a part of my power supply system. Today. Mark

>Just about all camping supply places(Camping World for one) sell an
>inexpensive tester which will fit a 20A outlet. Red and green LED's on
>the face tell you if the AC wiring is correct and warns of open or
>reversed ground and neutral. Some even have a small volt meter. Well
>worth the small price IMO. Patrick

I understand the plug tester operation and theory, but...
Is that all a ground fault interrupter circuit does? I was under the
impression that it could sense a very small current flowing between the
line and ground (like the human body shorting to ground) and interrupt
the flow of AC before you stop breathing or your heart quits.

Regards,
John

- --
"I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to..."
John said, from inside a 1974 Glacier on the
Potomac, just north of the White House.
 
The principle of operation of the ground fault interruptor will also explain
the recent thread concerning the neutral wire and the groIund wire.

The reason that there is both a neutral and a ground is purely for safety.
In the early days, outlets and appliances only had two conductors as that is
all that is needed for the appliance to work. If everything is as it should
be, the flow of electricity is from the hot wire, through the appliance
(doing the work) and back to the source by way of the neutral wire. It has
to be a closed loop. If there is any leakage to ground, regardless of
whether it is a defect in the appliance, a breakdown in the insulation of
the cord or the wiring, or a circuit comprised of a human getting into the
juice, the current leaving the outlet by way of the hot wire will not
exactly match the current returning through the neutral. When things are
normal, the two currents will always exactly match no matter what the load
is. Only a leak will cause them to be unbalanced. So the GFCI simply has a
very sensitive integrated circuit amplifier comparing the currents on the
hot and the neutral--if even a very small imbalance is detected, a relay is
energized and latches mechanically, cutting the current to the outlet.

If you understand this, then you will understand why both views that have
been expressed--that the ground and the neutral are connected and that they
aren't--are correct.

They are, in fact, at the same potential when everything is normal. And at
some point, they are connected. That is, the ground is connected to ground,
and at some point the neutral is connected to ground. In most fixed
applications, they are electrically connected at the breaker box where the
electrical service enters the building. They have separateterminal lug
strips, but both are connected to the steel cabinet. Past this point, they
should never be connected again. The reason for this is that the neutral is
carrying the load and therefore there is a voltage drop along it. If you
sketch it in your mind, you'll realize that if the neutral is broken
anywhere along its path back to the breaker box, that portion of it that is
upstream of the break is now hot and thus if it were connected to the
appliance or to the frame of a motorhome, for example, would pose a great
danger. Something like this is likely what happened to the girls mentioned
earlier. For that reason, there is a completely separate ground circuit
required whose purpose is to safely conduct any stray currents to ground. Of
course it isn't foolproof but, like seat belts, helps more often than not.

Didn't mean to make such a long post of it...did I make it worse?

Travis

- -----Original Message-----
From: John Dolan
To: gmcmotorhome
Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: Don't get electrocuted! (was:Temporary Shore Power)

>I need some help on understanding this GFI subject... (I have a 74 GMC)
>
>>One thing I know for sure, I'm going to get an in-line GFI like we use
>>on job sites and make it a part of my power supply system. Today. Mark
>
>>Just about all camping supply places(Camping World for one) sell an
>>inexpensive tester which will fit a 20A outlet. Red and green LED's on
>>the face tell you if the AC wiring is correct and warns of open or
>>reversed ground and neutral. Some even have a small volt meter. Well
>>worth the small price IMO. Patrick
>
>I understand the plug tester operation and theory, but...
>Is that all a ground fault interrupter circuit does? I was under the
>impression that it could sense a very small current flowing between the
>line and ground (like the human body shorting to ground) and interrupt
>the flow of AC before you stop breathing or your heart quits.
>
>Regards,
>John
>
>--
>"I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to..."
>John said, from inside a 1974 Glacier on the
>Potomac, just north of the White House.
>
 
Thanks guys, now I get it... if the problem with the camper was related
to one of the conditions that PatricK mentioned, the plug tester would
have caught it and warned of the problem before hand. If they had an
inline GFI, like Mark is talking about, it might have sensed the current
mismatch due to the current flowing through the girls bodies and
interrupted the AC supply to the whole camper since that is what inline
CFI implies.

Regards,
John

- --
"I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to..."
John said, from inside a 1974 Glacier on the
Potomac, just north of the White House.
 
I mentioned a few days ago the GFI I plug into at home kept tripping. The
problem was a 2K ohm short to ground in the water heater element. I had to
isolate every circuit to find it. I'm glad the GFI is there.

> The principle of operation of the ground fault interruptor will also explain
> the recent thread concerning the neutral wire and the groIund wire.
 
>I mentioned a few days ago the GFI I plug into at home kept tripping.
>The problem was a 2K ohm short to ground in the water heater element. I
>had to isolate every circuit to find it. I'm glad the GFI is there.

A month ago or so a fellow from Canada reported an apparent phenomenon.
He said I just bought a GMC and the water heater is getting voltage and
drawing current, but there is no hot water. What could be wrong? I
suggested that the water heater must draw a lot of current to heat water!
The "Rest of the Story" is: The heater element was burned out.

When you reported your discovery on the GFI, I said I should have asked
Edgar if the water heater was working. Then.... you asked if anyone had
a good source for a heater element.

Regards,
John

- --
"I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to..."
John said, from inside a 1974 Glacier on the
Potomac, just north of the White House.
 
Thanks for the education and information.

Bill C.

> In a message dated 7/2/99 5:32:48 AM MST,

>
> > Beyond that, (and I'm just thinking out loud here)
> I also often use a 220 by
> > 30 amp to 110 by 15 amp adapter. If the 15~20 amp
> duplex circuit is wired
> > incorrectly, that would put the 'hot' side of the
> circuit in the wrong
> > place.
>
> Mark,
> Unless someone has miswired it, there is no such
> thing as a "220 by 30
> amp" RV supply circuit. A 30 amp service is a 120
> volt service by the code.
> It includes one hot and one neutral wire with a
> potential of 120V across them
> (the two angled flat terminals in the plug) and one
> ground wire (the round
> pin) which normally carries no current.
>
> If a "dog bone" is plugged into a 30 amp outlet
> to supply a "50 amp" shore
> cord, it merely connects the 30 amp hot lead to BOTH
> hot leads in the 50 amp
> plug. Everything works normally in the coach,
> except that any 240V
> appliances will not work as they will have 0 volts
> across their supply
> terminals. (Very few RVs have any 240 volt
> appliances.)
>
> OTOH, if a 50->30 amp "dog bone is plugged into a
> 50 amp outlet to supply
> a "30 amp" shore cord, only one of the "hot" leads
> is fed through to the
> cord, along with the neutral and ground.
> (Technically this is not to code,
> as the 30 amp shore cord is only protected by the 50
> amp outlet breaker
> (actually one leg of said breaker), and so could be
> overloaded.)
>
> Once again, may I reiterate that a 20 amp
> campground outlet supplies 20 X
> 120 = 2400 watts of power, a 30 amp supplies 30 X
> 120 = 3600 watts, and a 50
> amp outlet supplies 50 X 240 = 12,000 watts (or
> occasionally 2 X 50 X 120 =
> 12,000 watts). The 50 amp plug has two separate hot
> leads supplying up to 50
> amps EACH, and so supplies not just 1 2/3 times the
> power of a 30 amp, but
> rather over 3 TIMES the power of a 30 amp shore
> cord.
>
> If any of this is not clear, don't hesitate to
> ask again. This topic (RV
> shore power wiring) seems to engender more confusion
> than almost any other
> I've followed, whether in this group, in
> , or on
> Compuserve.
>
> HTH.
>
> Rick Staples
> '75 Eleganza
> Louisville, CO
>

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
The water heater was working perfectly.

> >I mentioned a few days ago the GFI I plug into at home kept tripping.
> >The problem was a 2K ohm short to ground in the water heater element. I
> >had to isolate every circuit to find it. I'm glad the GFI is there.
>
> A month ago or so a fellow from Canada reported an apparent phenomenon.
> He said I just bought a GMC and the water heater is getting voltage and
> drawing current, but there is no hot water. What could be wrong? I
> suggested that the water heater must draw a lot of current to heat water!
> The "Rest of the Story" is: The heater element was burned out.
>
> When you reported your discovery on the GFI, I said I should have asked
> Edgar if the water heater was working. Then.... you asked if anyone had
> a good source for a heater element.
>
> Regards,
> John
>
> --
> "I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to..."
> John said, from inside a 1974 Glacier on the
> Potomac, just north of the White House.
 
Hi John

Check out this web page for shocks, it has links to other pages as well.

Dave

- ----- Original Message -----
From: John Dolan
To:
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: GMC: Don't get electrocuted! (was:Temporary Shore Power)

> > The water heater was working perfectly. Edgar
>
> So in summary, we have Gary's case where the heater failed to heat and he
> subsequently discovered a 500 ohm short to ground, and Edgar's case where
> it did not fail to heat, but developed a 2000 ohm short to ground which
> was picked up by a GFI. I may have a data point for the database but I
> have to measure it first.
>
> I am going to do some research on what it takes (voltage and current
> wise) given a specific victim's skin resistance to cause various
> stages... Hard to let go, Not possible to let go, suffocation, cardiac
> arrest, EEG Flat Line. I will report back with a summary (any pointers
> to various sources gladly accepted...via list or direct email whatever is
> easy)
>
> Regards,
> John
>
> --
> "I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to..."
> John said, from inside a 1974 Glacier on the
> Potomac, just north of the White House.
>
>
>
 
I think you are on the wrong track. This subject requires more than junk
science. The fact that some persons can receive electrical shocks with a
certain reaction has much to do with many variables.Humidity, clothing ,
temperature entrance and exit points. Please understand that current in
microamps can normally hardly be felt , but if it passes through certain
nerves can cause cardiac arrest.
Speculate about tire pressures or transmisson temps but leave this one alone.

>> The water heater was working perfectly. Edgar
>
>So in summary, we have Gary's case where the heater failed to heat and he
>subsequently discovered a 500 ohm short to ground, and Edgar's case where
>it did not fail to heat, but developed a 2000 ohm short to ground which
>was picked up by a GFI. I may have a data point for the database but I
>have to measure it first.
>
>I am going to do some research on what it takes (voltage and current
>wise) given a specific victim's skin resistance to cause various
>stages... Hard to let go, Not possible to let go, suffocation, cardiac
>arrest, EEG Flat Line. I will report back with a summary (any pointers
>to various sources gladly accepted...via list or direct email whatever is
>easy)
>
>Regards,
>John
>
>--
>"I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to..."
>John said, from inside a 1974 Glacier on the
>Potomac, just north of the White House.
>
>
 
> The water heater was working perfectly. Edgar

So in summary, we have Gary's case where the heater failed to heat and he
subsequently discovered a 500 ohm short to ground, and Edgar's case where
it did not fail to heat, but developed a 2000 ohm short to ground which
was picked up by a GFI. I may have a data point for the database but I
have to measure it first.

I am going to do some research on what it takes (voltage and current
wise) given a specific victim's skin resistance to cause various
stages... Hard to let go, Not possible to let go, suffocation, cardiac
arrest, EEG Flat Line. I will report back with a summary (any pointers
to various sources gladly accepted...via list or direct email whatever is
easy)

Regards,
John

- --
"I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to..."
John said, from inside a 1974 Glacier on the
Potomac, just north of the White House.
 
William Hubert...

Do you feel this subject is too complicated for members of a transmission
and tire discussion group to comprehend? I have already found out why
the warning decal is present on some 78 Royals (and what it really means)
which is more than you apparently know, since you didn't respond when
asked. I'm curious, do you have any credentials to support your
contention, or are you just running your mouth?

> I think you are on the wrong track. This subject requires more than
> junk science. The fact that some persons can receive electrical
> shocks with a certain reaction has much to do with many variables.
> Humidity, clothing , temperature entrance and exit points.

Strange... you missed the most important variables... the ones you
mentioned are trivial by comparison.

>Please understand that current in microamps can normally hardly be
>felt , but if it passes through certain nerves can cause cardiac arrest.
>Speculate about tire pressures or transmisson temps but leave this one
>alone.

Good Grief... Go back to lurking and don't embarrass yourself further!
 
Now, now kids...

As is the norm for this list or any other source of information... soak it
all in, ask, and ask again and then decide what gets used and in what
manner.

I for one have found the thread on GFI's very interesting. I always thought
of them as a nuisance and unnecessary overkill (no pun intended). It was not
only expensive and one more piece of stuff to haul around. However, next
stop at CW, one will get added.

Contextually, the GFI discussion is in parallel with D's vs E's. E's don't
guarantee that you'll never get a flat but by using them I feel I will have
done my part to look after myself, my passengers, my rig. (The order is
intentional... by looking after myself, those around me will also be looked
after :-)

I've only ever had one blowout on D's and have never had an AC tingle but
E's are waiting for the new Alcoa's and a 30 amp GFI will be found room for.

Apologies for jumping in with nothing to contribute but blabbing... it's a
diversionary tactic to give a chance for coolness to get the upper hand.
Now that's a pun... for some, and not funny at all for others with the
current temps outside).

Heinz
in "cool" Stockton... only forcast to go low 90's today but it was a
refreshing high fifties overnight.

GenSet getting a good workout... almost 200 hours and still happy with
replacement decision.

>William Hubert...
>
>Do you feel this subject is too complicated for members of a transmission
>and tire discussion group to comprehend? I have already found out why
>the warning decal is present on some 78 Royals (and what it really means)
>which is more than you apparently know, since you didn't respond when
>asked. I'm curious, do you have any credentials to support your
>contention, or are you just running your mouth?
>
>> I think you are on the wrong track. This subject requires more than
>> junk science. The fact that some persons can receive electrical
>> shocks with a certain reaction has much to do with many variables.
>> Humidity, clothing , temperature entrance and exit points.
>
>Strange... you missed the most important variables... the ones you
>mentioned are trivial by comparison.
>
>>Please understand that current in microamps can normally hardly be
>>felt , but if it passes through certain nerves can cause cardiac arrest.
>>Speculate about tire pressures or transmisson temps but leave this one
>>alone.
>
>Good Grief... Go back to lurking and don't embarrass yourself further!
>
>
 
I do not believe that you are really understanding my concern. Your
original post discussed trying to make a database that would indicate how
much current would cause what reaction. Because of the variables and
anomolies involved what in one circumstance could cause someone to stick
and be able to let go would cause death in another, just as was seen last
week in our area when 2 girls stepped out of a camper that was miswired.
One stuck and was killed, the other manage to pull herself frere and was
otherwise uninjured.
.
Quantifying levels of acceptable and unacceptable shock hazards could give
some readers a very false sense of security.

It is that very real danger that causes me to ask that this thread not be
speculated on.

Standards of course do exist and they are incorporated into the NEC and
CFR. Fundamentally can't we end this by saying that if the current fault is
greater than that allowed in a GFI then the level is unacceptable. I am
certainly NOT advocating limiting any discussion on electrical safety and
the importance of fitting a GFI system.

BTW I don't understand your comment that I didn't respond when asked.

My profession is electrical system design in the marine industry.

To conclude if your GMC is not equipped with a GFI as part of the main
electrical system install it before you plug itin or run the generator again.

Bill Hubert

>William Hubert...
>
>Do you feel this subject is too complicated for members of a transmission
>and tire discussion group to comprehend? I have already found out why
>the warning decal is present on some 78 Royals (and what it really means)
>which is more than you apparently know, since you didn't respond when
>asked. I'm curious, do you have any credentials to support your
>contention, or are you just running your mouth?
>
>> I think you are on the wrong track. This subject requires more than
>> junk science. The fact that some persons can receive electrical
>> shocks with a certain reaction has much to do with many variables.
>> Humidity, clothing , temperature entrance and exit points.
>
>Strange... you missed the most important variables... the ones you
>mentioned are trivial by comparison.
>
>>Please understand that current in microamps can normally hardly be
>>felt , but if it passes through certain nerves can cause cardiac arrest.
>>Speculate about tire pressures or transmisson temps but leave this one
>>alone.
>
>Good Grief... Go back to lurking and don't embarrass yourself further!
>
>
 
Well, I'm glad to end this discussion (with you) by agreeing that we can
accept the leakage standards that are already established for GFI
tripping as safe standards for GMCers. There was no discussion of a new
database on that. In the previous paragraph, I mentioned that I may have
another datapoint to add to the database of 2 (Gary and Edgar's water
heaters) where they both had shorts to ground. I have a bad heater, and
plan on measuring the resistance to ground. And since most GMCs don't
have GFIs, I think it is a valid topic. Particularly because in Edgar's
case the heater was working fine. And whether you think it wise or not,
I plan on discussing it, along with several other things with which you
may not agree, including the variables involved with electrocution. I
may even summarize what I find out about: diaphram paralysis,
fibrilation, involuntary large muscle contraction (and why children are
more susceptible to becoming 'stuck' )

>Standards of course do exist and they are incorporated into the NEC and
>CFR. Fundamentally can't we end this by saying that if the current fault
>is greater than that allowed in a GFI then the level is unacceptable. I
>am certainly NOT advocating limiting any discussion on electrical safety
>and the importance of fitting a GFI system.

I fully intend to continue the discussion, even though it doesn't fall
into the acceptable topics you first mentioned (tires and transmission
temperatures).

>BTW I don't understand your comment that I didn't respond when asked.

You must have just jumped in, because several folks had reported two days
ago that there were switches installed in their GFI Royales, and one had
a factory decal saying this is good for "grounded power supplied circuits
only". I repeated their postings and asked if anyone knew what it meant
and or why it was there. Now that you have been given a reprise of the
discussion, do you have anything to add on that sub-thread?

>I also have a 1978 Rayale. GFI has been replaced with a switch to
>switch from generator to AC. It is located on the side of the rear twin
>bed on the right side. Do you have any response to this? Bill C.

>>John, I have a 78 Royale (Coachman) with a built in GFI in the breaker
>>box that you switch when going from shore power to gen set. A decal
>>states that this is only good for "grounded power supplied
>>circutis only" (?) Data point only. Chuck D

I have reposted (below) the message that you felt was getting into
territory that should be left alone, and we should get back to tires and
transmission temperatures.

> The water heater was working perfectly. Edgar

>>So in summary, we have Gary's case where the heater failed to heat and
>>he subsequently discovered a 500 ohm short to ground, and Edgar's case
>>where it did not fail to heat, but developed a 2000 ohm short to ground
>>which was picked up by a GFI. I may have a data point for the database
>>but I have to measure it first.

>>I am going to do some research on what it takes (voltage and current
>>wise) given a specific victim's skin resistance to cause various
>>stages... Hard to let go, Not possible to let go, suffocation, cardiac
>>arrest, EEG Flat Line. I will report back with a summary (any pointers
>>to various sources gladly accepted...via list or direct email whatever
>>is easy)

Regards,
John

- --
"I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to..."
John said, from inside a 1974 Glacier on the
Potomac, just north of the White House.
 
Tektronix published a bulletin several years ago in which they cautioned that
it takes approx. 100 ma (I think that was the correct figure, I wouldn't
swear to it) to cause cardiac arrest.

> I am going to do some research on what it takes (voltage and current
> wise) given a specific victim's skin resistance to cause various
> stages... Hard to let go, Not possible to let go, suffocation, cardiac
> arrest, EEG Flat Line. I will report back with a summary (any pointers
> to various sources gladly accepted...via list or direct email whatever is
> easy)
 
I haven't worked in medical electronics in a long time, but the lethal
current flow across the chest can be dramatically lower than 100 ma. I
recall some numbers around the tens of micro amp range for the right (or
wrong depending on your point fo view) path. Below the waist current flows
have been considered "safe" provided that you don't have a sneak path
across your heart or cook yourself.

TENS and other medical electronics take great pains to control frequency
and current flow. Providing a ground for a GMC doesn't sound very appealing
to me.

Henry

>Tektronix published a bulletin several years ago in which they cautioned that
>it takes approx. 100 ma (I think that was the correct figure, I wouldn't
>swear to it) to cause cardiac arrest.

Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting
PO Box 1270 / product readiness reviews
Soquel, Ca 95073 / IP reviews
ph: (831) 462-5199 / full service marketing
fax: (831) 462-5198
http://www.henry-davis.com/ http://www.henry-davis.com
 
Richard Waters...

If you are still there... I think I recall you posted an excellent write
up on the Floating Ground System in the GMC. (I can't find my copy) If
I am correct, and you can easily do so, would you repost, under this
subject? If you can't find it easily, I'm sure someone has a copy that
they can find.

It would be easy just to forward another copy, but I don't think our
Mailinglists.org will pass forwarded messages to cut down on annoyance
forwarding.

Regards,
John

- --
"I do whatever my Rice Krispies tell me to..."
John said, from inside a 1974 Glacier on the
Potomac, just north of the White House.
 
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