403 diesel

[kerry pinkerton]

Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had one iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that share at least an
intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will interchange? If that is the case, would it not be possible to make a 403
diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high demand in the scrap
yard...if you can find them.

Just wondering.

--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama

77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum goodies.

http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/

'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L

 

[Jim Hupy]

Kerry, There are not very many 350 Diesels left in the scrap yards. 1. They
were part of the Cash for Clunkers Recall and destroy, that involved
putting isinglass in the crankcase and running them until they froze up
tight. 2. They were absolute crap as an engine. They broke main bearing
webs and connecting rods. They were recalled and replaced at an
unprecedented rate by the factory, but, some of them ran a long time
without much in the way of repairs. I had one in a K5 Chevrolet Blazer. It
had two replacement Diesels before I switched it over to a 4 bolt main 350
gasoline engine. The diesel blocks (JH and later) made a heck of a swell
conversion gasoline engine, and the camshaft blanks are in high demand for
the regrind trade. They were billet steel. They will wear out a stock
distributor gear in a thousand miles though. I never had any thoughts about
making a larger diesel out of one. Interesting concept. If they were as
durable as the 6.5 Duramax, they might have some value.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Kerry Pinkerton
wrote:

> Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had
> one iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that share at least an
> intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will
> interchange? If that is the case, would it not be possible to make a 403
> diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and
> such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high demand in the scrap
> yard...if you can find them.
>
> Just wondering.
>
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
>
> 77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum
> goodies.
>
> http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/
>
> '03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[johnny]

The 350 Olds Diesel wasn't so much a bad idea as bad marketing. People were given the impression it would perform the same as a gasoline engine.
Wrong. If you took an 88 with a 350 gas engine in it and treated it the way most people treated the Diesel (Floor it at every start, hold it floored
to highway speed, floor it ever pass, etc) it wouldn't hold up either. We ran the one my brother had - which he stole because the PO was scared of
the reputation) for just at half a million miles. Cruise the freeway at 75 all day long doing 22MPG on cheeeep fuel with five friends comfortably.
But, it took a mile or three to get up to speed. The cruise control hunted badly until I found one off another diesel in a junkyard and replaced the
original. All we could figure was the first one was a gas engine control. Looked the same, but the one off the junker got into the gas sooner and
deeper on hills, which reduced the hunting drastically. Give it half throttle off a light and wait... and it lasted six forevers.

GM managed to discredit automotive Diesels for decades with them.

--johnny

--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.

"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon

 

[robert mueller]

Kerry,

Check this article out:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6599/top-automotive-engineering-failures-oldsmobile-diesels/

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Kerry Pinkerton
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 4:02 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: [GMCnet] 403 diesel

Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had one iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that
share at least an
intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will interchange? If that is the case, would it not be possible
to make a 403
diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high
demand in the scrap
yard...if you can find them.

Just wondering.

--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama

77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum goodies.

http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/

'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[a.]

I have a 1981 Cutlass diesel that has been parked in the pasture for over 20 years. It had over 100k miles on it when it developed a knock when my
brother was driving it sometime between 1992 and 1995. If anyone wants it, come and get it. The VA title got lost in the dozen plus times I have moved
since 1992. If you have a 16" hub centered rim that will fit the GMC, we can call it a trade.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."

 

[thomas phipps]

My father has one in an Olds sedan. After two sets of head replacements, he put in a 350 gas engine.
However, the engine soldiered on in the CUCV. Survived much soldier abuse. Can find these engines occasionally. One was on Craig's List, in New
Orleans, complete with the military shipping crate.
Tom, MS II
--
1975 GMC Avion
KA4CSG

 

[kingsley coach]

Developed a knock? How would he know?

> I have a 1981 Cutlass diesel that has been parked in the pasture for over
> 20 years. It had over 100k miles on it when it developed a knock when my
> brother was driving it sometime between 1992 and 1995. If anyone wants it,
> come and get it. The VA title got lost in the dozen plus times I have moved
> since 1992. If you have a 16" hub centered rim that will fit the GMC, we
> can call it a trade.
> --
> 73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
> 73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
> Upper Alabama
> "Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS

Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !

 

[Jim Hupy]

Trust me, when one of those engines develops a knock, you won't have any
trouble hearing it. They pull head bolts right out of the block, blow head
gaskets, fill the cylinders full of antifreeze, hydraulic lock the engine,
break crankshaft and rods, you name it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> Developed a knock? How would he know?
>

>
> > I have a 1981 Cutlass diesel that has been parked in the pasture for over
> > 20 years. It had over 100k miles on it when it developed a knock when my
> > brother was driving it sometime between 1992 and 1995. If anyone wants
> it,
> > come and get it. The VA title got lost in the dozen plus times I have
> moved
> > since 1992. If you have a 16" hub centered rim that will fit the GMC, we
> > can call it a trade.
> > --
> > 73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
> > 73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
> > Upper Alabama
> > "Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Beaton
> 1977 Kingsley 26-11
> 1977 Eleganza II 26-3
> Antigonish, NS
>
> Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[b52rule]

We had one here last time I was in the junk yard

Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Fallbrook, CA new email: B52Rule
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375

www.bdub.net/novak/

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Kerry
Pinkerton
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 9:02 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: [GMCnet] 403 diesel

Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had one
iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that share at least an
intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will
interchange? If that is the case, would it not be possible to make a 403
diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and
such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high demand in the scrap
yard...if you can find them.

Just wondering.

--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama

77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum
goodies.

http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/

'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7859 / Virus Database: 4664/13428 - Release Date: 11/17/16

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7859 / Virus Database: 4664/13428 - Release Date: 11/17/16

 

[kerry pinkerton]

back to the hypothetical. IF someone wanted to, what would it take to make a 403 into a diesel? What kind of torque did the 350 make, ie the torque
curve. I don't recall if the 403 is a 4 bolt or 2? What is different in the long block?

Mind you, I'm not a bit interested in doing this but something made me wonder if it was doable.

My car hauler GMC will have a Cad 500 if I ever get down to Americus to pick it up.
--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama

77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum goodies.

http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/

'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L

 

[bob heller]

Tom,

According to Wikipedia The CUCV did NOT use the Olds diesel. It used the 6.2.

The Olds diesel couldn't even stand up to normal grandpa driving (I had 2 neighbors who had them back in the day, one was an 80+ grandpa) so there's
no way they would pass any kind of durability tests for military hardware (in my opinion).

Wiki:

"All CUCV Is were powered by GM's 6.2L J-series Detroit Diesel V8 engine non-emissions diesel.[6] These were rated at 155 hp (116 kW) and 240 lb·ft
(325 N·m), which was 5 hp (3.7 kW) more than the emissions diesel engine of the time."

Johnny,

Back in the early 1980's I got to drive my neighbors 1979 Cutlass 350 diesel a few times. You HAD to floor the pedal often just to drive in daily
Metro NY/NJ traffic. I'm not positive but I think the Chevette (another quality GM product) gasser of the day accelerated better.

GMC content: There's no way I would even consider an Olds diesel for my GMC. Maybe Manny's diesel conversion if the price was right, but absolutely
positively no Olds diesel no matter what size or year.
--
Bob Heller
1974 X-Canyonlands 26ft
Original 455 exc for timing chain,
Rockwell intake, valve covers. 141k miles.
Winter Springs FL

 

[robert mueller]

Kerry,

The problem is in the heads, Olds retained the 4 bolts around each cylinder and that was a weak link. It should have been 5 to
withstand the additional compression of a diesel! You would have to make a pattern for the block and a pattern for the heads that
would take 5 bolts.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Kerry Pinkerton
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 11:42 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel

back to the hypothetical. IF someone wanted to, what would it take to make a 403 into a diesel? What kind of torque did the 350
make, ie the torque curve. I don't recall if the 403 is a 4 bolt or 2? What is different in the long block?

Mind you, I'm not a bit interested in doing this but something made me wonder if it was doable.

My car hauler GMC will have a Cad 500 if I ever get down to Americus to pick it up.
--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama

77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum goodies.

 

[hal stclair]

The fuel filtering issue was a self inflicted problem for GM. They went to Racor pre-production looking for a water separator/filter but the design
Racor came up with was more then the bean counters at GM would accept so....
To bad it worked out as it did. And now with VW's help it looks like diesels will be hit again. It really hurts for a died in the wool diesel guy,
Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout

 

[a.]

> back to the hypothetical. IF someone wanted to, what would it take to make a 403 into a diesel? What kind of torque did the 350 make, ie the
> torque curve. I don't recall if the 403 is a 4 bolt or 2? What is different in the long block?
>
> Mind you, I'm not a bit interested in doing this but something made me wonder if it was doable.
>
> My car hauler GMC will have a Cad 500 if I ever get down to Americus to pick it up.
Rob M alluded to the problem. The head will never stay on at a 22.5:1 compression ratio. And the main bearings don't have long enough bolts to hold
them to the block.

The only potentially viable approach would be to bore and stroke the latest revision of a 350 diesel to 411 CI. The top and bottom will stay together
anyway.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."

 

[a.]

> ...The Olds diesel couldn't even stand up to normal grandpa driving (I had 2 neighbors who had them back in the day, one was an 80+ grandpa) so
> there's no way they would pass any kind of durability tests for military hardware (in my opinion). ...
The latest revision worked fine in a passenger car. But they had already lost all credibility, and IIRC, they never got around to including a
fuel/water separator, so even the latest models were doomed from the showroom floor.

I liked the one I had. 30 mpg in a full-sized car, and diesel was cheaper than gas back then. I believe if I hadn't left it for my brother to keep it
running, I could have driven it for many more years. It was 10 years old when I bought it, and I drove it for a year and a half. So there was nothing
wrong with the engine design or manufacturing. I am pretty sure the failure originated with water in the fuel.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."

 

[adrien genesoto]

I had an '80 Cutlass Supreme with that famous 350 Diesel, a gutless wander. The GM engineers light bulb was not very bright on this engine.
After 3 head gaskets I pulled the engine to surface the block and heads, made it into a 4 bolt main, reduced compression to about 20 to 1 (to reduce
the gasket blow out problem), and used head studs.
The lower end never gave me problems, but after 10 more blown head gaskets (all on right bank between 4&6), I gave up. The block would make into a
good strong gas engine.
Thinking back, I should have kept quiet and gotten a gas 350 to put in it, being a diesel I had no smog check to deal with.
The car was in good shape inside and out.

> Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had one iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that share at least
> an intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will interchange? If that is the case, would it not be possible to make a 403
> diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high demand in the scrap
> yard...if you can find them.
>
> Just wondering.

--
”When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided.”

Adrien & Jenny Genesoto
75 Glenbrook 26-3
Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6

 

[robert mueller]

Adrien,

Your experience directly correlates with the information in the link in my previous response, Olds stayed with four bolts around
each cylinder when it should have been five!

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Adrien Genesoto
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 3:48 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel

I had an '80 Cutlass Supreme with that famous 350 Diesel, a gutless wander. The GM engineers light bulb was not very bright on this
engine.
After 3 head gaskets I pulled the engine to surface the block and heads, made it into a 4 bolt main, reduced compression to about 20
to 1 (to reduce
the gasket blow out problem), and used head studs.
The lower end never gave me problems, but after 10 more blown head gaskets (all on right bank between 4&6), I gave up. The block
would make into a
good strong gas engine.
Thinking back, I should have kept quiet and gotten a gas 350 to put in it, being a diesel I had no smog check to deal with.
The car was in good shape inside and out.

> Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had one iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that
share at least
> an intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will interchange? If that is the case, would it not be
possible to make a 403
> diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high
demand in the scrap
> yard...if you can find them.
>
> Just wondering.

--
"When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided."

Adrien & Jenny Genesoto
75 Glenbrook 26-3
Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[johnny]

The one Brother had was a Delta 88 from some time in the late 70s. It had a water separator which the PO said 'came in it', I later founf out that by
that time the Montgomery dealer was fitting all new Diesels with an aftermarket separator. This was the same brother who got 130K miles out of a Vega
before it rusted so much the rear window fell out of the hatch. Cheap doesn't begin to describe.
All this said, I suspect trying to modify a 403 - or an gasoline engine - into a Diesel is a Thoroughly Bad Idea. Too many differences in the way
they make power. I'll point out, over the years I've completely worn out three VW Diesels and ruined a fourth from water ingestion. I like Diesels
for the most part.

--johnny
--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.

"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon

 

[Matt Colie]

OK, Matt the diesel engineer is here.

There has been a lot written here that was true and a lot that was only close.

The Olds diesel program was pushed on Oldsmobile in Lansing by GM management in Warren without applying any pressure on Detroit Diesel in Redford to
provide assistance. This is exactly why the 350D and the 6.2 are as different as night as day.

On basic engineering data diesel and SI engines do not look that different. The power output of a similar displacement diesel will be less (when
naturally aspirated) because diesels are all smoke limited. The cylinder pressures as BMEP are often actually about the same at the peak torques.
But what happens in the real world is an eye opener. The actual peak cylinder pressures when measured in real time and be two or even three times
higher than those of a similar SI.

Line items.
- It is not that there there were only 4 headbolts per cylinder, there are many successful diesels with this count. The problem was that the
fasteners were not capable at the required clamp load. Olds went and upgraded that fastener part number to a higher and non-SAE standard and that
problem and the related headgasket failure issue dropped. But that also introduced two new problems. This now became the first known production
engine to fail the cylinder head fasteners (bolts) in service. The only saving grace being that if this was discovered early (because of the coolant
leakage), that fastener could be replaced and the vehicle returned to service.
- The early blocks were not capable. Again, it was not the lack of a 4-bolt main, but just a plain and simple lack of structure. Yes, they did break
webs. This was corrected in the later versions.
- The early connecting rods were also an issue that few knew about. It was not uncommon on a full inspection tear-down to find that all the
connecting rods were all now short, bent and twisted. This was also a subject that was later corrected.
- The specific fuel injection pump for this engine was another farce that was played on Oldsmobile by Standadyne. The Roosamaster pump was supposed
to not need any lift pump or priming pump once it was in service. It also turned out to have real big delivery issues at cranking speeds. This would
show up any time an owner tried to start it with a low battery. The lack of a real lift pump and priming pump became serious if the engine ever went
down on fuel. (It was rumored that some actually got scrapped by this.) Some were built with a fuel system that had no return. They always had the
dead-end injectors, and that could cause its own issues (until the part was revised) but the lack of a vent return from the injection pump made it
intolerant of any air in the fuel system at all.
- That brings up another fuel issue that was spoken of in the thread and completely true. The only filter included in the original design was the
little 5h1t cartridge also by Standadyne. There was no water trap and no means to drain it. This was a result of the NHSTA fuel leakage on crash
rules. It is why some diesel passcars have fuel filters in strange places or they are "armored".

If your eyes haven't glazed over yet, I could go on a while longer, but these were the biggest issues. Yes, Olds engineers did correct them in the
later builds, but by then the Olds diesel had been relegated to trash bin along side the Vega.

It's is a beautiful fall morning here and I have places to go and people to annoy. I am real ready for the Saturday Lunch Bunch.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
Now with both true Keyless and remote entry
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

 

[kerry pinkerton]

Thanks Matt. That certainly clears up any further questions about that.

On another note, I owned two Vegas and thought they were great little cars. One was a GT 4 speed that handled better than my MGB and ran like stink.
The other was an iron block auto that also was a fine little car. Not being in the rust belt probably helps my opinion.

On yet another note, there is a Cogsworth Vega in the area that is the terror of the street racing guys. He's reportedly embarrassed a lot of high
dollar muscle cars.
--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama

77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum goodies.

http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/

'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L