yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?

The infernal combustion engine is a far bigger producer
of Carbon Monoxide (CO) than most of the other devices.
It is the nature of the beast whose combustion efficiency
is quite poor.

Stoves and ovens generally are lit for short periods of
time and generally don't go out of good working order to
create a lot of CO. The same is normally true of furnaces
and gas water heaters, but they are not USUALLY within
the living spaces. Old style floor furnaces are notorious
for their CO output and kill quite a few people every
winter.

My daughter, hubby, and kids lived for awhile in an old
house that had one of those and I bought them a CO
detector as soon as I discovered that furnace.

I've been told that many houses in Korea are heated
by charcoal via duct work. Every year people there
die due to leaks in those ducts that allow the CO into
the living spaces. While I was still on active duty
in the Air Force there was a story about some American
serviceman and/or family being killed that way almost
every winter.

NO GENSETS OR CHARCOAL FIRES INDOORS! ANY TIME!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

> To: gmclist
> From: defconfx
> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:59:07 -0600
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?
>
>
>
> yeah lost him 3 years ago to the big C, just a couple weeks shy of his 52nd. too young to go if you ask me. Is the department still open? I remember that place vaugely from when I was a kid.
>
> As for my gen idea, there has to be a way to make it safe for indoor useage since a lot of other CO producing items like the stove, and furnace as well as fridge in some cases are all used inside with no ill effect. every story I hear about any problems with using a gen indoors has been due to lack of proper venting of exhausts away from the living area. I can wait till the unit arrives so I can inspect its design and test it for CO. the ones I absolutely dont understand is the people who use charcoal grills for heat indoors there really is no way to vent the fumes created from that....
>
>

> > Shan,
> >
> > Your father did a fine job. We're still out here! My coach is parked
> > on the other side of the fence from the fire station.
> >
> > DC
> >
> > --
> > 1977 GMC ex-Palm Beach, 26-3
> > Treasure Island, CA
> > KC6VHG, KAG0675 "980"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
> As for my gen idea, there has to be a way to make it safe for indoor useage since a lot of other CO producing items like the stove, and furnace as well as fridge in some cases are all used inside with no ill effect. every story I hear about any problems with using a gen indoors has been due to lack of proper venting of exhausts away from the living area. I can wait till the unit arrives so I can inspect its design and test it for CO. the ones I absolutely dont understand is the people who use charcoal grills for heat indoors there really is no way to vent the fumes created from that....


* the stove will have a warning on it not to use it for heating
* the fridge propane heater is completely outside and well vented
* the furnace has a powered vent forcing the fumes outside
--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC
 
Shan,

I don't mean to piss you off, however, I've read all the responses and
frankly it sure looks like you are hell bent to run the generator inside no
matter how much advice to the contrary you receive.

And that's that!

Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces
[mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Shan Rose
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 12:59 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?

As for my gen idea, there has to be a way to make it safe for indoor useage
since a lot of other CO producing items like the stove, and furnace as well
as fridge in some cases are all used inside with no ill effect. every story
I hear about any problems with using a gen indoors has been due to lack of
proper venting of exhausts away from the living area. I can wait till the
unit arrives so I can inspect its design and test it for CO. the ones I
absolutely dont understand is the people who use charcoal grills for heat
indoors there really is no way to vent the fumes created from that....
 
Confused by one thing. Somebody mentioned something about thinking that running the exhaust up high like above the roof was a bad idea? Not sure why that would be so. Any explanation/opinion?
Thanks,
J76 PBPortland, OR
 
Just a question here. I have not followed this discussion too closely, but
even if you can effectively route the exhaust gases to the exterior of the
coach, how much oxygen is consumed/removed from the interior? If the Onan
is not functional or giving you problems remove it and install your new
genset in that location. You could possibly make a hatch so you can get to
it from the interior - just make sure the hatch seals completely.

Unless the Onan's problems are terminal, I'd invest the $$ in getting it
squared away and forget about the secondary genset.

Again, I've not monitored this thread in it's entirety so please forgive me
if this has already been addressed.

Just my thoughts.

Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 Glacier
Oakland, TN

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:56 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:

> Shan,
>
> I don't mean to piss you off, however, I've read all the responses and
> frankly it sure looks like you are hell bent to run the generator inside no
> matter how much advice to the contrary you receive.
>
> And that's that!
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Shan Rose
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 12:59 PM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?
>
> As for my gen idea, there has to be a way to make it safe for indoor useage
> since a lot of other CO producing items like the stove, and furnace as well
> as fridge in some cases are all used inside with no ill effect. every story
> I hear about any problems with using a gen indoors has been due to lack of
> proper venting of exhausts away from the living area. I can wait till the
> unit arrives so I can inspect its design and test it for CO. the ones I
> absolutely dont understand is the people who use charcoal grills for heat
> indoors there really is no way to vent the fumes created from that....
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
 
Jay,

What I have read is that It puts the exhaust at the right height to be drawn in by some roof top vents --

Dennis Sexton
73 GMC
Germantown, TN
USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Rabe
To: gmclist
Sent: Wed, Jan 26, 2011 2:00 am
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?

onfused by one thing. Somebody mentioned something about thinking that running
he exhaust up high like above the roof was a bad idea? Not sure why that would
e so. Any explanation/opinion?
hanks,
76 PBPortland, OR

______________________________________________
MCnet mailing list
ist Information and Subscription Options:
ttp://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
I would estimate that the distance from such an exhaust
would be sufficiently diffused in the atmosphere to NOT
be a problem to roof vents at least 20 feet away from
the source. Obviously you would not want to have your
OWN roof vents open if you were venting the genny above
roof level. There would be a BIG difference in the CO
concentration in the air when compared to running large
sources of CO within the closed space of the coach.

I know that Camping World apparently sells a bunch of
these exhaust extensions. Does ANYBODY have any actual
evidence that these are hazardous or is this just another
urban legend or old wives/husbands tale?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


> To: gmclist
> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:18:36 -0500
> From: dennisfsexton
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?
>
>
> Jay,
>
> What I have read is that It puts the exhaust at the right height to be drawn in by some roof top vents --
>
> Dennis Sexton
> 73 GMC
> Germantown, TN
> USA
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Rabe
> To: gmclist
> Sent: Wed, Jan 26, 2011 2:00 am
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?
>
> Confused by one thing. Somebody mentioned something about thinking that running
> the exhaust up high like above the roof was a bad idea? Not sure why that would
> be so. Any explanation/opinion?
> Thanks,
> 76 PBPortland, OR
 
Former Governor Dixie Lee Ray was quoted as saying, after the
failure of the WPPS Nuclear Power Plant Grid in Washington State, "There is
nothing wrong with Nuclear Power per se, you just don't want people around
it."
To apply that same tounge in cheek type of humor to running the generator
indoors, the following question comes to mind. What advantages are there to
be had from doing so as opposed to setting it on the ground and plugging it
in? Maybe I am missing the point. Somewhere I remember seeing a '70s era
detroit automobile with a room sized window air conditioner strapped to the
pass side rear door complete with a portable generator bolted to the trunk
lid. I am sure that it cooled the interior of the car, but........
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 6:25 AM, D C *Mac* Macdonald wrote:

>
> I would estimate that the distance from such an exhaust
> would be sufficiently diffused in the atmosphere to NOT
> be a problem to roof vents at least 20 feet away from
> the source. Obviously you would not want to have your
> OWN roof vents open if you were venting the genny above
> roof level. There would be a BIG difference in the CO
> concentration in the air when compared to running large
> sources of CO within the closed space of the coach.
>
> I know that Camping World apparently sells a bunch of
> these exhaust extensions. Does ANYBODY have any actual
> evidence that these are hazardous or is this just another
> urban legend or old wives/husbands tale?
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>
>
>
> > To: gmclist
> > Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:18:36 -0500
> > From: dennisfsexton
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?
> >
> >
> > Jay,
> >
> > What I have read is that It puts the exhaust at the right height to be
> drawn in by some roof top vents --
> >
> > Dennis Sexton
> > 73 GMC
> > Germantown, TN
> > USA
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jay Rabe
> > To: gmclist
> > Sent: Wed, Jan 26, 2011 2:00 am
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?
> >
> > Confused by one thing. Somebody mentioned something about thinking that
> running
> > the exhaust up high like above the roof was a bad idea? Not sure why that
> would
> > be so. Any explanation/opinion?
> > Thanks,
> > 76 PBPortland, OR
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
 
Mac,

Please look here for the Cummins comments on exhaust extensions...

http://www.funroads.com/rv-repair/generators/exhaustextensions/

At a local FMCA rally, I witnessed a unit made of pvc pipe collapse and potentially block the exhaust, creating a safety issue.

Dennis Sexton
73 GMC
Germantown, TN
USA

-----Original Message-----
From: D C *Mac* Macdonald
To: gmclist
Sent: Wed, Jan 26, 2011 8:25 am
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?

would estimate that the distance from such an exhaust
ould be sufficiently diffused in the atmosphere to NOT
e a problem to roof vents at least 20 feet away from
he source. Obviously you would not want to have your
WN roof vents open if you were venting the genny above
oof level. There would be a BIG difference in the CO
oncentration in the air when compared to running large
ources of CO within the closed space of the coach.

know that Camping World apparently sells a bunch of
hese exhaust extensions. Does ANYBODY have any actual
vidence that these are hazardous or is this just another
rban legend or old wives/husbands tale?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

To: gmclist
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:18:36 -0500
From: dennisfsexton
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?


Jay,

What I have read is that It puts the exhaust at the right height to be drawn
n by some roof top vents --

Dennis Sexton
73 GMC
Germantown, TN
USA



-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Rabe
To: gmclist
Sent: Wed, Jan 26, 2011 2:00 am
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?

Confused by one thing. Somebody mentioned something about thinking that
unning
the exhaust up high like above the roof was a bad idea? Not sure why that
ould
be so. Any explanation/opinion?
Thanks,
76 PBPortland, OR
______________________________________________
MCnet mailing list
ist Information and Subscription Options:
ttp://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
Robert, not pissed off at all, its my German side coming though, plus there has to be a way to do it safely. I never said intended to run it that way all the time, just what would it take to make it safe. once I take delivery of the unit tomorrow I will know more about what I am working with and if it will be possible to duct an air supply as well as exhaust. I just think about how in dyno shops they have vented exhaust systems sowhen you are tuning a motor you dont breathe that crap. as I said I had CO exposure once before as a teen, that crap made me sicker than a dog, and I dont care to repeate that experience.


> Shan,
>
> I don't mean to piss you off, however, I've read all the responses and
> frankly it sure looks like you are hell bent to run the generator inside no
> matter how much advice to the contrary you receive.
>
> And that's that!
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Shan Rose
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 12:59 PM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?
>
> As for my gen idea, there has to be a way to make it safe for indoor useage
> since a lot of other CO producing items like the stove, and furnace as well
> as fridge in some cases are all used inside with no ill effect. every story
> I hear about any problems with using a gen indoors has been due to lack of
> proper venting of exhausts away from the living area. I can wait till the
> unit arrives so I can inspect its design and test it for CO. the ones I
> absolutely dont understand is the people who use charcoal grills for heat
> indoors there really is no way to vent the fumes created from that....
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
My Onan runs like a top, the reason for the smaller gen is 4 fold, on=
e is the fact that it uses about .1 gal an hour at 1/4 load the onan with a=
lmost no load burns about .4 gallons an hour. Second is noise, unless runni=
ng the roof AC, water heater, or some other electrical appliance which dema=
nds heavy current, the onan is overkill. Third is portability, I can take t=
he smaller gen with me anywhere without having to drive the coach there. 4t=
h is to reduce wear and tear on the onan, since mantainance costs are signi=
ficantly more ofor the onan (last oil change for the onan was about $40, co=
mpared to just $6 for the yahmaha) the onan is a great genset, once I worke=
d out the bugs, mine has provided me with several hundred hours or reliable=
service, and by splitting the load with another APU I can make the onan la=
st even longer before a major overhaul will be required, so now I will only=
need onan under severe usage conditions and not just to nuke something or =

2011 05:52 > Just a question here. I have not followed this discussion =
too closely, but > even if you can effectively route the exhaust gases to=
the exterior of the > coach, how much oxygen is consumed/removed from th=
e interior? If the Onan > is not functional or giving you problems remo=
ve it and install your new > genset in that location. You could possibly=
make a hatch so you can get to > it from the interior - just make sure t=
he hatch seals completely. > > Unless the Onan's problems are terminal=
, I'd invest the $$ in getting it > squared away and forget about the sec=
ondary genset. > > Again, I've not monitored this thread in it's entir=
ety so please forgive me > if this has already been addressed. > > J=
ust my thoughts. > > Tom Eckert N2VWN > 73 Glacier > Oakland, TN=
> > > > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:56 PM, Rob Mueller wrote: > > > Shan, > > > > I don't mean to piss yo=
u off, however, I've read all the responses and > > frankly it sure looks=
like you are hell bent to run the generator inside no > > matter how muc=
h advice to the contrary you receive. > > > > And that's that! > > =
> > Regards, > > Rob M. > > USAussie - Downunder > > AUS '75 Avion - =
The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 > > USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V1=
00426 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: gmclist-boun=
ces > > [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behal=
f Of Shan Rose > > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 12:59 PM > > To: g=
mclist > > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generato=
r: how to run inside? > > > > As for my gen idea, there has to be a way=
to make it safe for indoor useage > > since a lot of other CO producing =
items like the stove, and furnace as well > > as fridge in some cases are=
all used inside with no ill effect. every story > > I hear about any pro=
blems with using a gen indoors has been due to lack of > > proper venting=
of exhausts away from the living area. I can wait till the > > unit arri=
ves so I can inspect its design and test it for CO. the ones I > > absolu=
tely dont understand is the people who use charcoal grills for heat > > i=
ndoors there really is no way to vent the fumes created from that.... > >=
> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GM=
Cnet mailing list > > List Information and Subscription Options: > > ht=
tp://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist > > > ___________=
____________________________________ > GMCnet mailing list > List Infor=
mation and Subscription Options: > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman=
/listinfo/gmclist
 
Hi,
When we were doing the rebuild on our coach I had thought of changing the
start batteries to AGM's (which I did) but moving them inside the coach.
This would have given me just enough space to install at 1000 watt Honda
generator into the now vacant battery space in front of the right front
wheel area. Certainly no issues with ventilation or sound, but some work
required to provide an adequate exhaust path. Did not do it as I ended up
installed 50G Generac in the rear but I agree with Shan that sometimes you
don't need to fire up the big genny for simple stuff like battery charging.

Thanks

Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 GMC Glacier
Anza, CA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shan Rose"
To: o
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?

>
>
> My Onan runs like a top, the reason for the smaller gen is 4 fold, one is
> the fact that it uses about .1 gal an hour at 1/4 load the onan with
> almost no load burns about .4 gallons an hour. Second is noise, unless
> running the roof AC, water heater, or some other electrical appliance
> which demands heavy current, the onan is overkill. Third is portability, I
> can take the smaller gen with me anywhere without having to drive the
> coach there. 4th is to reduce wear and tear on the onan, since mantainance
> costs are significantly more ofor the onan (last oil change for the onan
> was about $40, compared to just $6 for the yahmaha) the onan is a great
> genset, once I worked out the bugs, mine has provided me with several
> hundred hours or reliable service, and by splitting the load with another
> APU I can make the onan last even longer before a major overhaul will be
> required, so now I will only need onan under severe usage conditions and
> not just to nuke something or watch a little TV whe
> n im in my rig...
>

>> Just a question here. I have not followed this discussion too closely,
>> but
>> even if you can effectively route the exhaust gases to the exterior of
>> the
>> coach, how much oxygen is consumed/removed from the interior? If the
>> Onan
>> is not functional or giving you problems remove it and install your new
>> genset in that location. You could possibly make a hatch so you can get
>> to
>> it from the interior - just make sure the hatch seals completely.
>>
>> Unless the Onan's problems are terminal, I'd invest the $$ in getting it
>> squared away and forget about the secondary genset.
>>
>> Again, I've not monitored this thread in it's entirety so please forgive
>> me
>> if this has already been addressed.
>>
>> Just my thoughts.
>>
>> Tom Eckert N2VWN
>> 73 Glacier
>> Oakland, TN
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:56 PM, Rob Mueller
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Shan,
>> >
>> > I don't mean to piss you off, however, I've read all the responses and
>> > frankly it sure looks like you are hell bent to run the generator
>> > inside no
>> > matter how much advice to the contrary you receive.
>> >
>> > And that's that!
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Rob M.
>> > USAussie - Downunder
>> > AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>> > USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: gmclist-bounces
>> > [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Shan Rose
>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 12:59 PM
>> > To: gmclist
>> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?
>> >
>> > As for my gen idea, there has to be a way to make it safe for indoor
>> > useage
>> > since a lot of other CO producing items like the stove, and furnace as
>> > well
>> > as fridge in some cases are all used inside with no ill effect. every
>> > story
>> > I hear about any problems with using a gen indoors has been due to lack
>> > of
>> > proper venting of exhausts away from the living area. I can wait till
>> > the
>> > unit arrives so I can inspect its design and test it for CO. the ones I
>> > absolutely dont understand is the people who use charcoal grills for
>> > heat
>> > indoors there really is no way to vent the fumes created from that....
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > GMCnet mailing list
>> > List Information and Subscription Options:
>> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
Lunch break time=E2=80=A6. There was a question of oxygen starvation =
raised. As a pulmonary physician, I couldn't let that go without trying to=
figure out if it was likely to be true or not. 1. Combustion calcu=
lation: 1. Gasoline is a mixture of hydrocarbons, nominally about =
C8 H18 (isooctane), specific gravity 114.23 gm/mole 2. Stoichiome=
tric complete combustion of hydrocarbons: CxHy + (x + y/4)O2 --> xCO=
2 + (y/2)H2O 4. Substituting into the equation: C8H18 +(8 + 4.5) O2 =
=C3=A08CO2 +9H2O 5. Thus every molecule of isooctane completely co=
mbusted will yield 8 CO2 and 9 water molecules and consume 12.5 oxygen mole=
cules 2. Determine how much isooctane is in a gallon of gas =
1. Isooctane specific gravity 688 kg/m^3 liquid state 2. 1=
m^3 1,000 liters 264.172 gallons, so one gallon contains 2.60 kg o=
f isooctane 3. 2,600 gms of gasoline / 114.23 gm/mole 22.76 mo=
les of isooctane. 3. Determine the waste products resulting f=
rom burning a gallon of gas completely (assuming no CO, NO2, etc here=
=E2=80=A6complete combustion into water and CO2) All this goes out the exh=
aust pipe (Shan hopes!) 1. 22.76 moles burned x 9 204.84 moles=
water produced =E2=80=A6at 18 gms/mole that=E2=80=99s 18 * 204.84 3684=
.12 grams of water (almost a gallon) 2. 22.76 moles burned x 8 =
182.08 moles of CO2 produced=E2=80=A6at 44.01 gm/mole that=E2=80=99s 8013.=
34 grams of CO2 produced. CO2 weighs (at standard temp and pressure dry) 1=
.977 gm/liter, so that=E2=80=99s ca. 4000 liters of CO2 produced (Global wa=
rming!) 4. Determine the oxygen consumed from burning a gallon=
of gas completely 1. 22.76 moles burned x 12.5 moles oxygen consu=
med/mole of gas burned 284.5 moles of oxygen consumed. 2. With=
oxygen at 16 gm/mole, that=E2=80=99s 4552 gms of oxygen consumed when a ga=
llon of gas is burned. Oxygen=E2=80=99s density (100% oxygen) is 1.429 gm/=
liter at zero centigrade (ok, you=E2=80=99re living in a cold coach). In r=
oom atmosphere at sea level, with 21% oxygen, that=E2=80=99s ca. 0.30 gms o=
xygen/liter of room air. 3. If 4552 grams of oxygen are consumed, =
ca, 4552 / 0.30 15,173 liters of room atmosphere are going to be pumpe=
d through the engine. That=E2=80=99s ca. 536 cubic feet of atmosphere. If=
the coach is 7.5 x 6 x 26 feet inside, the total volume of the coach is ca=
. 1200 cubic feet. Conclusion: A catalytic heater (which=
exhausts inside) doesn=E2=80=99t create a negative pressure in the coach b=
y dint of producing 8 CO2 and 9 H2O molecules that take the place of every =
12.5 molecules of oxygen consumed. I'd say that a catalytic heater can sur=
ely deplete oxygen concentrations if you burn enough fuel. If you could re=
ally use up 536 cubic feet of atmosphere by running through a gallon of gas=
(or equivalent molar weight of propane), using a catalytic heater, that'd =
be serious, and not just from oxygen starvation but from CO2 acidosis. I s=
uggest that nobody run a catalytic heater without several windows open! On=
the other hand, an internal combustion engine is a volume air pump and it =
exhausts all the air it takes in. It thus creates a negative pressure that=
will be supplied by leaks inward to the coach from the surrounding air. S=
o I don=E2=80=99t think Shan=E2=80=99s arrangement would necessarily cause =
oxygen starvation because as 21% oxygen room air is consumed and pumped out=
more 21% oxygen atmosphere will leak into the coach. I think one can prac=
tically guarantee that a 35 year old coach _won't_ develop a subatmospheric=
pressure, even with the windows closed: a multitude of small leaks will s=
uffice to let in all the air pumped out :-). HOWEVER, I still =
have a dire concern that Shan will kill himself, German engineering genes a=
nd all, from incompletely exhausted carbon monoxide. Shan, think of how yo=
ur obit might look: do you really want even a small chance of that? Then =
there'd be the humiliating post-mortem endowment, in your name, to the loca=
l firefighters. For the next 50 years they'll to go to the elementary and =
high schools to warn kids about the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning, a=
ll in your name (imagine a flower-wreathed picture on an easel in the gymna=
sium, standing to the firefighter's podium, and the bored kids texting each=
other about what a turkey you must have been to have engendered a perpetua=
lly endowed safety assembly in your name). I know that such an ignoble end=
would be too embarrassing for me by far. Run the generator out=
side! Now it is time to return to work! Mike Lincoln =
On Jan 26, 2011, at 12:59 PM, Shan Rose wrote: > >=
> My Onan runs like a top, the reason for the smaller gen is 4 fold, on=
e is the fact that it uses about .1 gal an hour at 1/4 load the onan with a=
lmost no load burns about .4 gallons an hour. Second is noise, unless runni=
ng the roof AC, water heater, or some other electrical appliance which dema=
nds heavy current, the onan is overkill. Third is portability, I can take t=
he smaller gen with me anywhere without having to drive the coach there. 4t=
h is to reduce wear and tear on the onan, since mantainance costs are signi=
ficantly more ofor the onan (last oil change for the onan was about $40, co=
mpared to just $6 for the yahmaha) the onan is a great genset, once I worke=
d out the bugs, mine has provided me with several hundred hours or reliable=
service, and by splitting the load with another APU I can make the onan la=
st even longer before a major overhaul will be required, so now I will only=
need onan under severe usage conditions and not just to nuke something or =
watch a little TV whe > n im in my rig...
 
Dr. Mike,

Excellent explanation. I really like the last paragraph. I think we should
all write our own Obit to avoid embarrassing ourselves when the time comes.

Thanks

Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 GMC Glacier
Anza, CA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Lincoln"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] yamaha inverter generator: how to run inside?

Lunch break time….

There was a question of oxygen starvation raised. As a pulmonary
physician, I couldn't let that go without trying to figure out if it was
likely to be true or not.

1. Combustion calculation:

1. Gasoline is a mixture of hydrocarbons, nominally about C8 H18
(isooctane), specific gravity 114.23 gm/mole

2. Stoichiometric complete combustion of hydrocarbons:

CxHy + (x + y/4)O2 --> xCO2 + (y/2)H2O
4. Substituting into the equation: C8H18 +(8 + 4.5) O2 à8CO2 +9H2O

5. Thus every molecule of isooctane completely combusted will yield 8
CO2 and 9 water molecules and consume 12.5 oxygen molecules

2. Determine how much isooctane is in a gallon of gas

1. Isooctane specific gravity 688 kg/m^3 liquid state

2. 1 m^3 = 1,000 liters = 264.172 gallons, so one gallon contains 2.60
kg of isooctane

3. 2,600 gms of gasoline / 114.23 gm/mole = 22.76 moles of isooctane.

3. Determine the waste products resulting from burning a gallon of gas
completely (assuming no CO, NO2, etc here…complete combustion into water and
CO2) All this goes out the exhaust pipe (Shan hopes!)

1. 22.76 moles burned x 9 = 204.84 moles water produced …at 18 gms/mole
that’s 18 * 204.84 = 3684.12 grams of water (almost a gallon)

2. 22.76 moles burned x 8 = 182.08 moles of CO2 produced…at 44.01
gm/mole that’s 8013.34 grams of CO2 produced. CO2 weighs (at standard temp
and pressure dry) 1.977 gm/liter, so that’s ca. 4000 liters of CO2 produced
(Global warming!)

4. Determine the oxygen consumed from burning a gallon of gas completely

1. 22.76 moles burned x 12.5 moles oxygen consumed/mole of gas burned =
284.5 moles of oxygen consumed.

2. With oxygen at 16 gm/mole, that’s 4552 gms of oxygen consumed when a
gallon of gas is burned. Oxygen’s density (100% oxygen) is 1.429 gm/liter
at zero centigrade (ok, you’re living in a cold coach). In room atmosphere
at sea level, with 21% oxygen, that’s ca. 0.30 gms oxygen/liter of room air.

3. If 4552 grams of oxygen are consumed, ca, 4552 / 0.30 = 15,173
liters of room atmosphere are going to be pumped through the engine. That’s
ca. 536 cubic feet of atmosphere. If the coach is 7.5 x 6 x 26 feet inside,
the total volume of the coach is ca. 1200 cubic feet.

Conclusion: A catalytic heater (which exhausts inside) doesn’t create
a negative pressure in the coach by dint of producing 8 CO2 and 9 H2O
molecules that take the place of every 12.5 molecules of oxygen consumed.
I'd say that a catalytic heater can surely deplete oxygen concentrations if
you burn enough fuel. If you could really use up 536 cubic feet of
atmosphere by running through a gallon of gas (or equivalent molar weight of
propane), using a catalytic heater, that'd be serious, and not just from
oxygen starvation but from CO2 acidosis. I suggest that nobody run a
catalytic heater without several windows open! On the other hand, an
internal combustion engine is a volume air pump and it exhausts all the air
it takes in. It thus creates a negative pressure that will be supplied by
leaks inward to the coach from the surrounding air. So I don’t think Shan’s
arrangement would necessarily cause oxygen starvation because as 21% oxygen
room air is consumed and pumped out more 21% oxygen atmosphere will leak
into the coach. I think one can practically guarantee that a 35 year old
coach _won't_ develop a subatmospheric pressure, even with the windows
closed: a multitude of small leaks will suffice to let in all the air
pumped out :-).

HOWEVER, I still have a dire concern that Shan will kill himself,
German engineering genes and all, from incompletely exhausted carbon
monoxide. Shan, think of how your obit might look: do you really want even
a small chance of that? Then there'd be the humiliating post-mortem
endowment, in your name, to the local firefighters. For the next 50 years
they'll to go to the elementary and high schools to warn kids about the
dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning, all in your name (imagine a
flower-wreathed picture on an easel in the gymnasium, standing to the
firefighter's podium, and the bored kids texting each other about what a
turkey you must have been to have engendered a perpetually endowed safety
assembly in your name). I know that such an ignoble end would be too
embarrassing for me by far.

Run the generator outside!

Now it is time to return to work!

Mike Lincoln

>
>
> My Onan runs like a top, the reason for the smaller gen is 4 fold, one is
> the fact that it uses about .1 gal an hour at 1/4 load the onan with
> almost no load burns about .4 gallons an hour. Second is noise, unless
> running the roof AC, water heater, or some other electrical appliance
> which demands heavy current, the onan is overkill. Third is portability, I
> can take the smaller gen with me anywhere without having to drive the
> coach there. 4th is to reduce wear and tear on the onan, since mantainance
> costs are significantly more ofor the onan (last oil change for the onan
> was about $40, compared to just $6 for the yahmaha) the onan is a great
> genset, once I worked out the bugs, mine has provided me with several
> hundred hours or reliable service, and by splitting the load with another
> APU I can make the onan last even longer before a major overhaul will be
> required, so now I will only need onan under severe usage conditions and
> not just to nuke something or watch a little TV whe
> n im in my rig...
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http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
For me running the Onan outside in stock location produces more fumes than I care for. On a still day it lingers all around the coach and some seeps in. I only run when necessary. Inside, no thanks as even a slight leak would be bad. Also is the crank case breather vented back to the intake..... I would hope in 2011 that it is. On old small engines that would vent blowby into the coach if it just came out the old stink vent tube.
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
Gee, did someone ask for the time??? :-)

(I agree with you,. Dr. Mike.)

Ken H.

> Lunch break time….
>
> There was a question of oxygen starvation raised. As a pulmonary
> physician, I couldn't let that go without trying to figure out if it was
> likely to be true or not.
>
> 1. Combustion calculation:
>
> 1. Gasoline is a mixture of hydrocarbons, nominally about C8 H18
> (isooctane), specific gravity 114.23 gm/mole
>
> 2. Stoichiometric complete combustion of hydrocarbons:
>
> CxHy + (x + y/4)O2 --> xCO2 + (y/2)H2O
> 4. Substituting into the equation: C8H18 +(8 + 4.5) O2 à8CO2 +9H2O
>
> 5. Thus every molecule of isooctane completely combusted will yield 8
> CO2 and 9 water molecules and consume 12.5 oxygen molecules
> ...
>
...
...
 
> Open the awning, put the gen outside.

And chain the gen to something. Those little generators have a way of growing legs and disappearing...
 
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