Wire sizing chart

R

richshoop

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Apr 4, 2017
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You're right about the voltage drop being so very important, especially in lower voltage applications. I found this other website that lists the table values at '2% or less'. http://www.wiringproducts.com/automotive-wire . Before you start looking at one website for all the answers. It does not exist.

This website suggests shrink tubing over electrical crimp connectors, which if you use the typical heat shrink tubing, will result in trapping water under the heat shrink tubing, since heat shrink tubing is NOT waterproof! They make 'marine' grade heat shrink tube with hot melt adhesive added inside so it is indeed waterproof because of the hot melt.

They also suggest soldering crimp connectors as superior to crimp. It is not so! When you do solder a crimp connector, where the solder finally stops flowing up the wire away from the connector, it creates a 'hard' spot in the wire, where any vibration will cause the wire to repeatedly flex there and fail in a very short time. When you use a proper crimping tool, the flexing that is caused by vibration is spread out over a much wider distance.
 
> You're right about the voltage drop being so very important, especially in lower voltage applications. I found this other website that lists the
> table values at '2% or less'. http://www.wiringproducts.com/automotive-wire . Before you start looking at one website for all the answers. It does
> not exist.
>
> This website suggests shrink tubing over electrical crimp connectors, which if you use the typical heat shrink tubing, will result in trapping
> water under the heat shrink tubing, since heat shrink tubing is NOT waterproof! They make 'marine' grade heat shrink tube with hot melt adhesive
> added inside so it is indeed waterproof because of the hot melt.
>
> They also suggest soldering crimp connectors as superior to crimp. It is not so! When you do solder a crimp connector, where the solder finally
> stops flowing up the wire away from the connector, it creates a 'hard' spot in the wire, where any vibration will cause the wire to repeatedly flex
> there and fail in a very short time. When you use a proper crimping tool, the flexing that is caused by vibration is spread out over a much wider
> distance.

Heat shrink tubing info is very good to know.

Saying that soldering crimp connectors is not superior, gotta disagree.

The crimp is a "hard" spot IDENTICAL to the "hard" spot in the soldered wire. It will flex and break at the crimp the same way after the same amount
of time as the soldered wire will do. But until it does break, the soldered connection has less resistance and will not loosen. And in the absence of
waterproof heat shrink, much more immune to corrosion.

You and I can argue forever, and I will still solder my connectors and wire splices.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Every day I become more convinced that I am the only person left on the planet that recognizes nonsense for what it is."
 
Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated. In a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point
where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do it on
anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also sometimes tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp
connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on softer (finer) wire.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
When I went through the NASA Standard connection class at Keesler AFB many years ago, we made a lot of solder connections and then subjected them to
failure on a shake table. Unless the wire is stripped with a thermal stripper or a calibrated squeeze stripper (Calibrated with a rod at the
beginning of each shift) the connection will always fail at the strip point. This because any stripper with a flat blade will nick the conductor and
it fails at the nick. This is true whether the connection is soldered or crimped - assuming the crimp is accomplished with the proper die in the
proper tool. If you crimp with a pair of 'pliers' crimper and/or strip with a pair of dikes all bets are off.
I note that the majority of failures of the connections on Onan circuit boards are where the wire enters the 'flag' style push on connector. I suspect
this is due to the method used to strip the wires 40 years ago - but can't prove it.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
> ...I note that the majority of failures of the connections on Onan circuit boards are where the wire enters the 'flag' style push on connector. I
> suspect this is due to the method used to strip the wires 40 years ago - but can't prove it.
>
> --johnny
I would say it is as I said. The point at the connector is rigid, the wire vibrates and metal fatigue sets in.

A break will occur where the wire flexes about a point. whether that point is where solder in the wire ends OR where the wire goes into an unsoldered
connector.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Every day I become more convinced that I am the only person left on the planet that recognizes nonsense for what it is."
 
The flag connector uses a special crimping tool and indeed they do fail right at the crimp. The plastic insulated type connectors actually have two crimps for each connection, the first makes contact with the conductor and the second one is around the wire insulation. The second crimp is the one that protects the first from flexing. Something like this double crimp flag terminal will give you much longer life. http://www.elecdirect.com/media/specsheets/35WMP.pdf

----- Original Message -----

From: "A."
To: "gmclist"
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 6:52:44 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart

> ...I note that the majority of failures of the connections on Onan circuit boards are where the wire enters the 'flag' style push on connector. I
> suspect this is due to the method used to strip the wires 40 years ago - but can't prove it.
>
> --johnny
I would say it is as I said. The point at the connector is rigid, the wire vibrates and metal fatigue sets in.

A break will occur where the wire flexes about a point. whether that point is where solder in the wire ends OR where the wire goes into an unsoldered
connector.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Every day I become more convinced that I am the only person left on the planet that recognizes nonsense for what it is."

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I don't have access to any wire prep procedures about soldering from the auto manufacturers, however, AMP and Molex declare it 'not recommended' (aviation speak for it will fail). Every amateur radio operator will disagree, Those blasted flag connectors have always been a big problem and a reoccurring point of failure. There are double crimped flag connectors which will increase the service life. http://www.elecdirect.com/media/specsheets/35WMP.pdf

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ken Burton"
To: "gmclist"
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 11:01:41 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart

Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated. In a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point
where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do it on
anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also sometimes tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp
connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on softer (finer) wire.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
One thing that we learned by failures of eutectic soldered joints was, that
they grows "whiskers" in 0 g. Communications satellites that were recovered
from orbit after failures were examined under high magnification, revealed
whiskers that grew in space on soldered connections would touch each other
and short out. Fix? Change the alloy of the solder. Who knew that would
ever happen. Aerospace engineers sure didn't.
Performance test-to-destruction knowledge has brought reliability to
new levels in the last couple of decades. The GMC MOTORHOME got some real
test track time, but I don't think it got any crash tests or shaker table
time.
When the Cascaders had their spring rally in LaConnor Washington last
year, we got to attend Kenworth trucks Paccar engineering center where they
develop new, over the road and off road heavy trucks. They have shaker
tables there big enough to hold a tractor and 55 foot semi-trailer.
Impressive for sure.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> I don't have access to any wire prep procedures about soldering from the
> auto manufacturers, however, AMP and Molex declare it 'not recommended'
> (aviation speak for it will fail). Every amateur radio operator will
> disagree, Those blasted flag connectors have always been a big problem and
> a reoccurring point of failure. There are double crimped flag connectors
> which will increase the service life. http://www.elecdirect.com/
> media/specsheets/35WMP.pdf
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ken Burton"
> To: "gmclist"
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 11:01:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
>
> Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated. In
> a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point
> where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on
> automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do it
> on
> anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also sometimes
> tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp
> connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on
> softer (finer) wire.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Do you happen to have a link to some micrographs of the whiskers?

I don't think they ever put a GMC MH on a shaker table but from what I have read, they did do a crash test and they did roll one over.

----- Original Message -----

From: "James Hupy"
To: "gmclist"
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 8:59:27 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart

One thing that we learned by failures of eutectic soldered joints was, that
they grows "whiskers" in 0 g. Communications satellites that were recovered
from orbit after failures were examined under high magnification, revealed
whiskers that grew in space on soldered connections would touch each other
and short out. Fix? Change the alloy of the solder. Who knew that would
ever happen. Aerospace engineers sure didn't.
Performance test-to-destruction knowledge has brought reliability to
new levels in the last couple of decades. The GMC MOTORHOME got some real
test track time, but I don't think it got any crash tests or shaker table
time.
When the Cascaders had their spring rally in LaConnor Washington last
year, we got to attend Kenworth trucks Paccar engineering center where they
develop new, over the road and off road heavy trucks. They have shaker
tables there big enough to hold a tractor and 55 foot semi-trailer.
Impressive for sure.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> I don't have access to any wire prep procedures about soldering from the
> auto manufacturers, however, AMP and Molex declare it 'not recommended'
> (aviation speak for it will fail). Every amateur radio operator will
> disagree, Those blasted flag connectors have always been a big problem and
> a reoccurring point of failure. There are double crimped flag connectors
> which will increase the service life. http://www.elecdirect.com/
> media/specsheets/35WMP.pdf
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ken Burton"
> To: "gmclist"
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 11:01:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
>
> Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated. In
> a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point
> where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on
> automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do it
> on
> anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also sometimes
> tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp
> connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on
> softer (finer) wire.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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It was a few years back, when they recovered a communications satellite
that I believe was co-owned by a telephone company and the U.S. government.
I do not know which agency. A big deal was made about the recovery in
space, as it was in a geosynchronous orbit quite a few thousand miles
higher than the recovery craft were normally operated in. I will look
online to see if I can find any info about it again.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> Do you happen to have a link to some micrographs of the whiskers?
>
> I don't think they ever put a GMC MH on a shaker table but from what I
> have read, they did do a crash test and they did roll one over.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "James Hupy"
> To: "gmclist"
> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 8:59:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
>
> One thing that we learned by failures of eutectic soldered joints was, that
> they grows "whiskers" in 0 g. Communications satellites that were recovered
> from orbit after failures were examined under high magnification, revealed
> whiskers that grew in space on soldered connections would touch each other
> and short out. Fix? Change the alloy of the solder. Who knew that would
> ever happen. Aerospace engineers sure didn't.
> Performance test-to-destruction knowledge has brought reliability to
> new levels in the last couple of decades. The GMC MOTORHOME got some real
> test track time, but I don't think it got any crash tests or shaker table
> time.
> When the Cascaders had their spring rally in LaConnor Washington last
> year, we got to attend Kenworth trucks Paccar engineering center where they
> develop new, over the road and off road heavy trucks. They have shaker
> tables there big enough to hold a tractor and 55 foot semi-trailer.
> Impressive for sure.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>

>
> > I don't have access to any wire prep procedures about soldering from the
> > auto manufacturers, however, AMP and Molex declare it 'not recommended'
> > (aviation speak for it will fail). Every amateur radio operator will
> > disagree, Those blasted flag connectors have always been a big problem
> and
> > a reoccurring point of failure. There are double crimped flag connectors
> > which will increase the service life. http://www.elecdirect.com/
> > media/specsheets/35WMP.pdf
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "Ken Burton"
> > To: "gmclist"
> > Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 11:01:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
> >
> > Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated.
> In
> > a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point
> > where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on
> > automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do
> it
> > on
> > anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also
> sometimes
> > tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp
> > connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on
> > softer (finer) wire.
> > --
> > Ken Burton - N9KB
> > 76 Palm Beach
> > Hebron, Indiana
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Look at; System Design: Death by Tin Whiskers-Avionics
www.aviationtoday.com There is a whole bunch more stuff there about tin
whiskers, but I could not find the nasa article specific to recovered
sattelites.
Jim Hupy

It was a few years back, when they recovered a communications satellite
that I believe was co-owned by a telephone company and the U.S. government.
I do not know which agency. A big deal was made about the recovery in
space, as it was in a geosynchronous orbit quite a few thousand miles
higher than the recovery craft were normally operated in. I will look
online to see if I can find any info about it again.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> Do you happen to have a link to some micrographs of the whiskers?
>
> I don't think they ever put a GMC MH on a shaker table but from what I
> have read, they did do a crash test and they did roll one over.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "James Hupy"
> To: "gmclist"
> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 8:59:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
>
> One thing that we learned by failures of eutectic soldered joints was, that
> they grows "whiskers" in 0 g. Communications satellites that were recovered
> from orbit after failures were examined under high magnification, revealed
> whiskers that grew in space on soldered connections would touch each other
> and short out. Fix? Change the alloy of the solder. Who knew that would
> ever happen. Aerospace engineers sure didn't.
> Performance test-to-destruction knowledge has brought reliability to
> new levels in the last couple of decades. The GMC MOTORHOME got some real
> test track time, but I don't think it got any crash tests or shaker table
> time.
> When the Cascaders had their spring rally in LaConnor Washington last
> year, we got to attend Kenworth trucks Paccar engineering center where they
> develop new, over the road and off road heavy trucks. They have shaker
> tables there big enough to hold a tractor and 55 foot semi-trailer.
> Impressive for sure.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>

>
> > I don't have access to any wire prep procedures about soldering from the
> > auto manufacturers, however, AMP and Molex declare it 'not recommended'
> > (aviation speak for it will fail). Every amateur radio operator will
> > disagree, Those blasted flag connectors have always been a big problem
> and
> > a reoccurring point of failure. There are double crimped flag connectors
> > which will increase the service life. http://www.elecdirect.com/
> > media/specsheets/35WMP.pdf
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "Ken Burton"
> > To: "gmclist"
> > Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 11:01:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
> >
> > Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated.
> In
> > a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point
> > where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on
> > automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do
> it
> > on
> > anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also
> sometimes
> > tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp
> > connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on
> > softer (finer) wire.
> > --
> > Ken Burton - N9KB
> > 76 Palm Beach
> > Hebron, Indiana
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
hello!

i have seen a bit more shaker table video posted to one of the the facebook pages, but can't spot it on youtube. here is the only shaker i could
find, be sure and watch the entire video. https://youtu.be/RjvOk0T73Uo?t=7m53s

i was told that whenever the solder vs. crimp debate dies down, it's someones duty to post this: https://youtu.be/hWijfooeSyU

i sure do love my gmc!

...now which wire is ground and where do i connect it?
 
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