Wiggle Waggle

larry & kaye kepple

New member
Jan 4, 1999
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I am real interested in this concept about the wigglle waggle being
caused by the steering box, even though it appears to be all right. I
currently have my 73 in a shop spending big bucks on replacing every
thing thats too worn plus a 6wheel alignment.During this work it was
noted that the steering coupler and the u joint at top of column near
steering wheel both had rough parts,which I am getting fixed too. So if
I still have the problem I think the next step may be to replace the
box. Lastly I may go to the four bagger. If the wiggle waggle is caused
by a bad steering gear box, why would some GMCers rave about getting rid
of wiggle waggle after installing 4 bags???
 
Before anybody goes out and replaces there steering box - to fix the
"wiggle waggle"

Please remember this --- The way I found out that the steering box was
bad --- at a DEAD stop it took a LOT more pressure to turn left than
it did to turn right.

A least there is a simple test to determine if you are having the same
problem as I was.



==
Pete Papas-Daytona Beach--land of Hard Beaches & Soft Women
. Home Phone- (904) 672-0571
.1973 GMC Painted Desert---She's old..but she sure is PRETTY
.1976 Aniversary Iron Head Harley Davidson M/C
.1979 280ZX Datsun (First Production Year - 1 of only 1000)
.
.Home Page> http://members.tripod.com/~mehawk_ii/index.html
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
Good point. Also, I wouldn't even start to look at front end issues until I
was sure that the rear was "up to snuf". Check for worn bushings and pins,
bad wheel bearings, worn spindles, etc. Once again, think about all that
mass that is behind the front wheels. If it's free to shift around, the
tail will wag the dog.

Patrick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hawk ii-Pete.Papas [mailto:hawk_ii_mail]
> Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 8:09 AM
> To: gmcmotorhome
> Subject: Re: GMC: Wiggle Waggle
>
>
> Before anybody goes out and replaces there steering box - to fix the
> "wiggle waggle"
>
> Please remember this --- The way I found out that the steering box was
> bad --- at a DEAD stop it took a LOT more pressure to turn left than
> it did to turn right.
>
> A least there is a simple test to determine if you are having the same
> problem as I was.
 
I have been considering buying a GMC motorhome for a couple of months and
have driven two so far. The last one I drove suffered from wiggle waggle.
My question is: "Is it possible that the wiggle waggle comes from twisting
of the rear frame due to the cantilevered bogie pins?" One unique feature
of the GMC appears to me to be that there is no rigid rear axle or other
side-to-side frame reinforcement in the immediate vicinity of the bogie
pins. Has anyone ever tried reinforcing the frame from side to side to
cure "wiggle waggle?" Has anyone ever tried to measure twisting of the
frame due to the bogie pins? If frame twisting is the problem, then 26'
GMC should be more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's because of their
greater weight. Are 26' GMC's more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's?
Eric Stewart
Tidewater Virginia
Maybe Wannabe
 
Yes, Don Roberts developed a stablizer set of bars that ties both frame sides
together. I have them on mine and they work wonderfully. I get no wiggle and when
the coach does go into a rut, it rides through very easily. Buskirk sold them and I
love mine. If you need more, please ask.
Al Chernoff

> I have been considering buying a GMC motorhome for a couple of months and
> have driven two so far. The last one I drove suffered from wiggle waggle.
> My question is: "Is it possible that the wiggle waggle comes from twisting
> of the rear frame due to the cantilevered bogie pins?" One unique feature
> of the GMC appears to me to be that there is no rigid rear axle or other
> side-to-side frame reinforcement in the immediate vicinity of the bogie
> pins. Has anyone ever tried reinforcing the frame from side to side to
> cure "wiggle waggle?" Has anyone ever tried to measure twisting of the
> frame due to the bogie pins? If frame twisting is the problem, then 26'
> GMC should be more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's because of their
> greater weight. Are 26' GMC's more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's?
> Eric Stewart
> Tidewater Virginia
> Maybe Wannabe
>
 
Al, VERY interested in those stabilizer bars while I have this rear end
apart and up in the air. Can you describe them and tell me where I might
buy them?
Thanks
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta

>Yes, Don Roberts developed a stablizer set of bars that ties both frame sides
>together. I have them on mine and they work wonderfully. I get no wiggle
and when
>the coach does go into a rut, it rides through very easily. Buskirk sold
them and I
>love mine. If you need more, please ask.
>Al Chernoff
>

>
>> I have been considering buying a GMC motorhome for a couple of
months and
>> have driven two so far. The last one I drove suffered from wiggle waggle.
>> My question is: "Is it possible that the wiggle waggle comes from twisting
>> of the rear frame due to the cantilevered bogie pins?" One unique feature
>> of the GMC appears to me to be that there is no rigid rear axle or other
>> side-to-side frame reinforcement in the immediate vicinity of the bogie
>> pins. Has anyone ever tried reinforcing the frame from side to side to
>> cure "wiggle waggle?" Has anyone ever tried to measure twisting of the
>> frame due to the bogie pins? If frame twisting is the problem, then 26'
>> GMC should be more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's because of their
>> greater weight. Are 26' GMC's more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's?
>> Eric Stewart
>> Tidewater Virginia
>> Maybe Wannabe
>>
>
>
 
> Al, VERY interested in those stabilizer bars while I have this rear end
> apart and up in the air. Can you describe them and tell me where I might
> buy them?
> Thanks
> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
>

> >Yes, Don Roberts developed a stablizer set of bars that ties both frame sides
> >together. I have them on mine and they work wonderfully. I get no wiggle
> and when
> >the coach does go into a rut, it rides through very easily. Buskirk sold
> them and I
> >love mine. If you need more, please ask.
> >Al Chernoff
> >

> >
> >> I have been considering buying a GMC motorhome for a couple of
> months and
> >> have driven two so far. The last one I drove suffered from wiggle waggle.
> >> My question is: "Is it possible that the wiggle waggle comes from twisting
> >> of the rear frame due to the cantilevered bogie pins?" One unique feature
> >> of the GMC appears to me to be that there is no rigid rear axle or other
> >> side-to-side frame reinforcement in the immediate vicinity of the bogie
> >> pins. Has anyone ever tried reinforcing the frame from side to side to
> >> cure "wiggle waggle?" Has anyone ever tried to measure twisting of the
> >> frame due to the bogie pins? If frame twisting is the problem, then 26'
> >> GMC should be more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's because of their
> >> greater weight. Are 26' GMC's more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's?
> >> Eric Stewart
> >> Tidewater Virginia
> >> Maybe Wannabe
> >>
> >
> >
 
Yes they do affect the amount of fown. My rear was adjusted twice, so I think
they were OK, but emery's suggestion is also worth considering. I have found
that many people have done many different things, and some work and others do
not. Keep working on the problem unitl you find a solution that works for you.
Al

>
> apart and up in the air. Can you describe them and tell me where I might
> buy them?
> Thanks
> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta >>
>
> You should be aware that the bars will not correct for an out of alignment
> condition on the rear wheels. I too had a wiggle problem in ruts and had Jim
> Bounds (GMC Coop - Orlando, Fl) do a 6 wheel alignment with his electronic
> equipment. This was after having Osborne in Albuquerque do an alignment
> without the equipment. The new alignment corrected my problem. I just
> returned from a trip to Tucson and found a lot of grooving on I-10. I was
> towing a Jeep CJ-7 and found that the ruts didn't affect me like they used to.
>
> Before spending a lot of money on a rear stabilizer, make sure that you have
> proper camber and caster and toe in on all six wheels.
>
> Another thing I've been told is that a rear stabilizer bar can affect the
> amount of leveling at a campsite that you can achieve with the air bags. I
> don't know if this applies to the ones you are looking at.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Santa Fe, NM
 
If you have a fax number, I could fax you the information I have on the bars.
They connect the rear of the front boggies (using the same holes as the brakes)
and the bar from one side of the boggie goes to the frame member on the other.
The downside, as there is in anything, is that I cannot lower the full 4". It
restricts the down some. However, I don't think it has ever bothered me.
Al

> Al, VERY interested in those stabilizer bars while I have this rear end
> apart and up in the air. Can you describe them and tell me where I might
> buy them?
> Thanks
> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
>

> >Yes, Don Roberts developed a stablizer set of bars that ties both frame sides
> >together. I have them on mine and they work wonderfully. I get no wiggle
> and when
> >the coach does go into a rut, it rides through very easily. Buskirk sold
> them and I
> >love mine. If you need more, please ask.
> >Al Chernoff
> >

> >
> >> I have been considering buying a GMC motorhome for a couple of
> months and
> >> have driven two so far. The last one I drove suffered from wiggle waggle.
> >> My question is: "Is it possible that the wiggle waggle comes from twisting
> >> of the rear frame due to the cantilevered bogie pins?" One unique feature
> >> of the GMC appears to me to be that there is no rigid rear axle or other
> >> side-to-side frame reinforcement in the immediate vicinity of the bogie
> >> pins. Has anyone ever tried reinforcing the frame from side to side to
> >> cure "wiggle waggle?" Has anyone ever tried to measure twisting of the
> >> frame due to the bogie pins? If frame twisting is the problem, then 26'
> >> GMC should be more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's because of their
> >> greater weight. Are 26' GMC's more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's?
> >> Eric Stewart
> >> Tidewater Virginia
> >> Maybe Wannabe
> >>
> >
> >
 
Eric,
Sorry for being late in replying to your post, I've been trying to catch up
after the Intl. rally, mostly sleep!

Emory hit on the first and main cause (of what I have found) to be the
driveability problem with the coach. The GMC has an inherent
characteristic that will allow it to "wiggle waggle" if there are
mechanical or alignment problems, but if it is set up right the ride will
be superb. I just came back from Myrtle Beach with a coach that has sat
for 10 years and has no after market mods to improve anything, original
bushings, OEM sway bar, Delco shocks (new though), and I even have a bit
more play in one of the rear pins than I would like to see. The coach was
a space ship! I could go any speed with no shakes straight down the road,
honest. I would challenge anyone to drive the beast and agree that it may
look like &5!@# big it drives great.

What is the secret? There is none, I put new tires on the coach, trued and
static balanced them and did a 6 wheel alignment- that is it! The front
end is original with 68K miles so I found no real problems other than
weathered control arm bushings. In checking the rear, I found 1 pin that
had some play and was hard taking grease. I was under the gun to make the
rally so I left it alone, besides I was interested to see if I would feel
anything or wear the tire with it. No feeling and no tire wear!

As soon as I collect a few more aluminum can, I want to put on the 4 air
bag system on my coach. I would strongly recommend the 4 air bag system
because it is safer and totally changes the suspension characteries of the
coach for the better, but you can achieve a super ride by going back to
basics.

I am speaking from the experiences I have had using the equipment here and
seeing many coaches with different driving problems. The set up was
expensive and frankly I do not know if I will every make the process cost
effective for me but it had always bothered me to see the different
combinations on coaches and all the diverse set ups trying to achieve the
"good ride". It always seemed to me we were missing something and to my
thinking it had to be something simple.

Proper mechanical condition and correct alignment is not actually simple to
achieve but it is very basic and it doesn't make sense to go forward before
the basics are covered!

The GMC bud bit me hard many years ago and I will tell you that I
absolutely love driving and even being near a GMC motorhome. You should
get one for yourself and see how nice a trip can be! There is no equal, I
would be willing to bet pink slips!

Hope this helps,

Jim Bounds
- ------------------------

> I have been considering buying a GMC motorhome for a couple of months and
>have driven two so far. The last one I drove suffered from wiggle waggle.
>My question is: "Is it possible that the wiggle waggle comes from twisting
>of the rear frame due to the cantilevered bogie pins?" One unique feature
>of the GMC appears to me to be that there is no rigid rear axle or other
>side-to-side frame reinforcement in the immediate vicinity of the bogie
>pins. Has anyone ever tried reinforcing the frame from side to side to
>cure "wiggle waggle?" Has anyone ever tried to measure twisting of the
>frame due to the bogie pins? If frame twisting is the problem, then 26'
>GMC should be more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's because of their
>greater weight. Are 26' GMC's more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's?
> Eric Stewart
> Tidewater Virginia
> Maybe Wannabe
>
>
>
>
Jim Bounds/Co-op Motor Works Orlando www.gmccoop.com
 
Al and others,
How are your stabilizer bars attached to the frame? Do they attach in any
way to the movable parts of the rear suspension? I am trying to visualize
how they could go between the sides of the frame without cutting through a
large tank that is in the area.
Another question: Are there any other vehicles that anyone knows of in
which the wheels are cantilevered directly off the frame? It appears to me
that the cantilever is particularly severe on the GMC because the airbags
and bogie arms position the wheels farther away from the frame.
Eric Stewart
Maybe Wannabe
Tidewater Virginia

Al, VERY interested in those stabilizer bars while I have this rear end
apart and up in the air. Can you describe them and tell me where I might
buy them?
Thanks
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta

>Yes, Don Roberts developed a stablizer set of bars that ties both frame sides
>together. I have them on mine and they work wonderfully. I get no wiggle
and when
>the coach does go into a rut, it rides through very easily. Buskirk sold
them and I
>love mine. If you need more, please ask.
>Al Chernoff
>

>
>> I have been considering buying a GMC motorhome for a couple of
months and
>> have driven two so far. The last one I drove suffered from wiggle waggle.
>> My question is: "Is it possible that the wiggle waggle comes from twisting
>> of the rear frame due to the cantilevered bogie pins?" One unique feature
>> of the GMC appears to me to be that there is no rigid rear axle or other
>> side-to-side frame reinforcement in the immediate vicinity of the bogie
>> pins. Has anyone ever tried reinforcing the frame from side to side to
>> cure "wiggle waggle?" Has anyone ever tried to measure twisting of the
>> frame due to the bogie pins? If frame twisting is the problem, then 26'
>> GMC should be more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's because of their
>> greater weight. Are 26' GMC's more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's?
>> Eric Stewart
>> Tidewater Virginia
>> Maybe Wannabe
 
Picture the front boggie with a bracket attached , and a bar that goes from that
braket to the opposite frame member. Each of them cross over each other. The result
is that the boggies(starting from the front one) mare tied to the frame and dont
wiggle as those without the frame member. Whether this will do anything, I trued my
back boggies before I installed the stabalizer bars. They are not used to correct
the tracking, you should have that done before, but to keep them in that position
when the tire enters a rut.
Al

> Al and others,
> How are your stabilizer bars attached to the frame? Do they attach in any
> way to the movable parts of the rear suspension? I am trying to visualize
> how they could go between the sides of the frame without cutting through a
> large tank that is in the area.
> Another question: Are there any other vehicles that anyone knows of in
> which the wheels are cantilevered directly off the frame? It appears to me
> that the cantilever is particularly severe on the GMC because the airbags
> and bogie arms position the wheels farther away from the frame.
> Eric Stewart
> Maybe Wannabe
> Tidewater Virginia
>
> Al, VERY interested in those stabilizer bars while I have this rear end
> apart and up in the air. Can you describe them and tell me where I might
> buy them?
> Thanks
> Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
>

> >Yes, Don Roberts developed a stablizer set of bars that ties both frame sides
> >together. I have them on mine and they work wonderfully. I get no wiggle
> and when
> >the coach does go into a rut, it rides through very easily. Buskirk sold
> them and I
> >love mine. If you need more, please ask.
> >Al Chernoff
> >

> >
> >> I have been considering buying a GMC motorhome for a couple of
> months and
> >> have driven two so far. The last one I drove suffered from wiggle waggle.
> >> My question is: "Is it possible that the wiggle waggle comes from twisting
> >> of the rear frame due to the cantilevered bogie pins?" One unique feature
> >> of the GMC appears to me to be that there is no rigid rear axle or other
> >> side-to-side frame reinforcement in the immediate vicinity of the bogie
> >> pins. Has anyone ever tried reinforcing the frame from side to side to
> >> cure "wiggle waggle?" Has anyone ever tried to measure twisting of the
> >> frame due to the bogie pins? If frame twisting is the problem, then 26'
> >> GMC should be more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's because of their
> >> greater weight. Are 26' GMC's more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's?
> >> Eric Stewart
> >> Tidewater Virginia
> >> Maybe Wannabe
 
I'm one of those who asked for more info on the stabilizer bars. Heinz has
shots of them on his excellent web site at http://bytedesign.com/gmc/ under
the disc brake section. But after hearing from Jim Bounds and several
others about balancing and aligning the tires on the GMC, I think I'll go
that route before moving further with the stab bars.
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta

>Al and others,
> How are your stabilizer bars attached to the frame? Do they attach in any
>way to the movable parts of the rear suspension? I am trying to visualize
>how they could go between the sides of the frame without cutting through a
>large tank that is in the area.
> Another question: Are there any other vehicles that anyone knows of in
>which the wheels are cantilevered directly off the frame? It appears to me
>that the cantilever is particularly severe on the GMC because the airbags
>and bogie arms position the wheels farther away from the frame.
> Eric Stewart
> Maybe Wannabe
> Tidewater Virginia
>
>Al, VERY interested in those stabilizer bars while I have this rear end
>apart and up in the air. Can you describe them and tell me where I might
>buy them?
>Thanks
>Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
>

>>Yes, Don Roberts developed a stablizer set of bars that ties both frame sides
>>together. I have them on mine and they work wonderfully. I get no wiggle
>and when
>>the coach does go into a rut, it rides through very easily. Buskirk sold
>them and I
>>love mine. If you need more, please ask.
>>Al Chernoff
>>

>>
>>> I have been considering buying a GMC motorhome for a couple of
>months and
>>> have driven two so far. The last one I drove suffered from wiggle waggle.
>>> My question is: "Is it possible that the wiggle waggle comes from twisting
>>> of the rear frame due to the cantilevered bogie pins?" One unique feature
>>> of the GMC appears to me to be that there is no rigid rear axle or other
>>> side-to-side frame reinforcement in the immediate vicinity of the bogie
>>> pins. Has anyone ever tried reinforcing the frame from side to side to
>>> cure "wiggle waggle?" Has anyone ever tried to measure twisting of the
>>> frame due to the bogie pins? If frame twisting is the problem, then 26'
>>> GMC should be more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's because of their
>>> greater weight. Are 26' GMC's more prone to wiggle waggle than 23' GMC's?
>>> Eric Stewart
>>> Tidewater Virginia
>>> Maybe Wannabe
>
>
>