Water Pump

B

bartz paul

New member
Dec 3, 1997
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Arch:

Several months back, I mentioned that I know a few individuals using a stock
Toronado water pump for up to five years with no cooling problems and that
it apparently is a myth that a pump having a cast impeller is a must.

I obtained a NEW pump from Auto Zone (asked for one for a 1978 403 cid
Toronado) for ~ $25.00, that I'm carrying as a spare.

Paul Bartz

From: Gcbr [mailto:Gcbr]
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 1:14 AM

Well, we all may be in for a big shock. I decided I would not go out on a
limb
on my water pump-----play it safe call Cinnabar and pay the money.
Well, what I got sure knocked my socks off. The one I got looks nothing
like the one on Genes page nor does it look anything like what Tom told
me was the only way to go. This pump does not have a disc impeller
it has a bunch of paddles in the cavity. All made of stamped steel.
The real interesting thing about it is that it is a NEW pump. Not a
rebuild. There was no core charge! I will say it again-----when Caspro
dropped its core charge I said that the pump must be something in
production NOW! I will say it again. This is a new pump with no core
charge! I have no idea if it is as good as a disc impeller but if Cinnabar
is going with it then GM must approve of it. What we now have to do is
find out what it is used on so I will give you what I know.

Casting #

412285
More #s ABO D80Y
^
l
This O is a O with star or something in it

Then there is the raised #s 909 then the stamped #1 on it.

The interesting thing to me is the cast raised 4 by the large opening on the
pump just like the original one. I am going to go to NAPA and see
If I can cross this over in the morning. There were no part #s on the box
so it may be rough. If any of you want pic just holler I will be glad to
send.
Now this is the kind of mystery I love to track down.
 
Arch,
I got out my pictures of the various pumps that can be bought for the
455/403 and the one you appear to have is the one that every article I
have says to avoid it at all cost. Are the impellers stamped steel with
a 3 15/16" diameter and 6 small paddles? Casting number should be a
#412265, it should also have a #D24 stamped on it. Avoid pumps with a
D2 or D11 stamped on them also, they are too small inside. You really
want the pump that has the 4 1/4" cast iron impeller with the large
paddles. I would send it back to Cinnabar! You might call Ray Curtis
at Eaton GMC & RV 1-800-764-3673 and see if he still have the good pump.

J.R. Wright
GMC Greatlaker
77 Eleganza II
Michigan

>
> GMCers
>
> Well, we all may be in for a big shock. I decided I would not go out on a limb
> on my water pump-----play it safe call Cinnabar and pay the money.
> Well, what I got sure knocked my socks off. The one I got looks nothing
> like the one on Genes page nor does it look anything like what Tom told
> me was the only way to go. This pump does not have a disc impeller
> it has a bunch of paddles in the cavity. All made of stamped steel.
> The real interesting thing about it is that it is a NEW pump. Not a
> rebuild. There was no core charge! I will say it again-----when Caspro
> dropped its core charge I said that the pump must be something in
> production NOW! I will say it again. This is a new pump with no core
> charge! I have no idea if it is as good as a disc impeller but if Cinnabar
> is going with it then GM must approve of it. What we now have to do is
> find out what it is used on so I will give you what I know.
>
> Casting #
> 412285
> More #s ABO D80Y
> ^
> l
> This O is a O with star or something in it
>
> Then there is the raised #s 909 then the stamped #1 on it.
>
> The interesting thing to me is the cast raised 4 by the large opening on the
> pump just like the original one. I am going to go to NAPA and see
> If I can cross this over in the morning. There were no part #s on the box
> so it may be rough. If any of you want pic just holler I will be glad to send.
> Now this is the kind of mystery I love to track down.
>
> Take Care
> Arch
 
Would be very interesting for you to send some pix to Gene for posting.

That way, we can compare what you got from the "official GM parts licensee"
to those in the waterpump article in GMCMM a year or so ago.

Also, I'm using what appears to be am identical stamped steel impeller
AC/Delco replacement. I put it on before knowing about the cast iron water
pump 'issue.' Works fine.

Mark

In a message dated 10/5/99 5:29:32 PM Central Daylight Time,
|powerjon
|writes:
|
|> You really
|> want the pump that has the 4 1/4" cast iron impeller with the large
|> paddles. I would send it back to Cinnabar! You might call Ray Curtis
|> at Eaton GMC & RV 1-800-764-3673 and see if he still have the good pump.
|>
 
Hi All,

The pump I replaced in the Pumpkin-Rose had the stamped steel impeller I
only put about 1350miles on it before the change(ran it in 75-125degs.
outside temps. with no known problem), Not known when the PO put it in, but
was doing ok except for weep hole showing signs of thinking of leaking(never
saw it wet). It is now a spare.

Ron&Gina
73 Pumpkin-Rose
Ft. Mohave,AZ.

- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: GMC: Water Pump

> In a message dated 10/6/99 6:55:34 AM Central Daylight Time,
grady

>
> >
> > Also, I'm using what appears to be am identical stamped steel impeller
> > AC/Delco replacement. I put it on before knowing about the cast iron
water
> > pump 'issue.' Works fine.
> >
> Mark
>
> Congratulations!!! You are number 7 to say they have the stamped
> steel pump with no problems. Not a single person has said they have
> the steel impeller and have had problems. This myth may well be on
> its death bed. Sure would like to hear from others. The beat goes on.
>
> Take Care
> Arch
 
I also replaced my watter pump with a stamped impeller one when I rebuilt the
engine in my coach twenty nine thousand miles ago. We have been in some pretty
hot situations since then, totally without any adverse problems. I think a good
radiator and a clean system are much more important. Just mu .02$ worth

> In a message dated 10/6/99 6:55:34 AM Central Daylight Time, grady

>
> >
> > Also, I'm using what appears to be am identical stamped steel impeller
> > AC/Delco replacement. I put it on before knowing about the cast iron water
> > pump 'issue.' Works fine.
> >
> Mark
>
> Congratulations!!! You are number 7 to say they have the stamped
> steel pump with no problems. Not a single person has said they have
> the steel impeller and have had problems. This myth may well be on
> its death bed. Sure would like to hear from others. The beat goes on.
>
> Take Care
> Arch
 
It replaced a water pump with the small stamped impeller

GMC folks,
I rebuild a lot of engines for Classic Chevys & these guys are fanatics
about keeping numbers matching parts on their engines. I send the
original pumps to San Diego Pump Exchange to have them rebuilt & always
get the one I sent in returned to me with better than original seals &
bearings. That is their only business. They ship, their number is
(619)670-4812. Great fellow to do business with & really knows water
pumps!
Steve Ferguson
San Diego
 
Hi Arch and all,

I too started thinking about the rebuilt steering boxes, saw the caspro
gearbox guess its good but was hoping on not spending 560+, but with the
recent problems that came up on the boxes and the age, I'm now in a wait and
see mode and taking in more info/problems on the rebuilds before I get mine.
Guess mine will hold out alittle longer.
Ron&Gina
73 Pumpkin-Rose
Ft. Mohave, AZ. (cooling to the Hi 70's @ about 2am. Man thats cold) :-)>

- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: Water Pump

> In a message dated 10/6/99 8:16:11 PM Central Daylight Time,

>
> > I also replaced my watter pump with a stamped impeller one when I
rebuilt
> the
> > engine in my coach twenty nine thousand miles ago. We have been in some
> > pretty
> > hot situations since then, totally without any adverse problems. I
think a
> > good
> > radiator and a clean system are much more important. Just mu .02$ worth
> >
> pamoore
>
> Congratulations!!!!! you are number 11. Not to many other people have
> told me how many miles they have on the stamped pump. You hold
> the record there. Mark how many miles do you have on yours? Gosh
> this is fun. I have not had this much fun since I only found 2 people
> who had ever had front wheel bearing problems. Patrick's dad did add
> to that one. Now what I would like to ask is that any of you who have
> had a problem with the stamped pump to send mail. Post it to the list
> or to me and I will not reveal who sent it to me. Folks I will say it
again
> we are making GMC history here.
>
> Now I am going to ramble a little so delete if you like. I have talked to
Jim
> Bounds about the problem with rebuilt steering boxes. His thoughts are
> about the same as mine. Once you get this far out the cores are not that
> good. You are going to see more failures. I will buy rebuilds for 10
years.
> After that I get a little nervous. When Cinnabar told me the water pump
> was new I was elated even though I thought it was going to be a stamped
> impeller. Now here is the next discovery I have made. The Caspro steering
> box is now a NEW unit not a rebuild------thats what they told me anyway.
> It used to be a rebuild now it is a new one. My friend the mechanic tells
> me that a lot of his parts that used to be rebuilds are now new. Dont ask
> me to tell you what this means. I dont know yet, But something is up.
>
> Take Care
> Arch 76 GB IL
 
Arch,

Before we put too much into the GM logo on the package, we might want to
see if GM really intends this water pump to be used for another GM
application. Someone might have just found the closest to GMC spec GM pump
that will fit the Olds engine. I really don't think that the GM logo on
the package is the same as GM saying it is meant for the GMC. I only think
it is saying that GM thinks it is meant for some vehicle. In my opinion,
any further meaning put into the logo is put there based only on the belief
(probably a pretty well founded one) that Cinnabar is going to provide
acceptable parts.

I am wondering if the GM licensing could actually be a detriment in some
cases. I would assume that the GM license would apply some pressure to use
"genuine" GM parts. If the original GM part is no longer manufactured, the
closest GM part might be substituted. Another manufacturer, however, might
produce a part which better matches the original specs. This better suited
part might be excluded from consideration since it is not a "GM" part. I
am not saying this is happening in this or any other case. I am just
throwing it out as something to consider.

Zak

>Scott
>
>I am not going to say we have a solution here but I do think that if
>Cinnabar is selling them then there must be something going on.
>I will be eager to see if anything comes out of NM. It takes a long
>time to sort out these things out. Change comes slowly. I do
>think we my well have a new myth by the tail.
>
>Take Care
>Arch
 
| Mark how many miles do you have on yours?

24k, but I'm a flatlander. Do agree that its as much rad condition and fan
clutch.
 
Arch,
If your looking for a cam, the Wolverine Blue Racer Cam and Kit is
available from AutoZone PN for $122.94. Dick Patterson who does
the Engine Rebuild seminars at the GMC International Conventions
recommends this cam. Specs are 206/214 deg. @ .050 lift. He also said
to install the cam +4 degrees instead of straight up.

J.R. Wright

>
> In a message dated 10/7/99 9:33:51 PM Central Daylight Time, MTrovao

>
> > Arch, have not installed them yet. The number stamped on the pump is 31290.
> > As for the timing chain I was under the impression that it was just one
> size.
> >
> > Now I'm wondering...
> >
> Manny
>
> Was it a Caspro? Thats the problem I have run into. They only have
> one. Tom and my Mechanic friend have informed me that I was
> wrong. Still trying to find info on Caspro Cam----Nate did a cam
> card come with your engine?
>
> Take Care
> Arch
 
"oh you have read all of that propaganda have you,
well what the impeller is made of does not in any way affect how the
pump works".
Arch,
Take a look in your dog-eared Summit catalog at water pumps. The only
difference between the stock replacements and the "real" performance
ones is the anti-cavitation type of impellers used. Their design is
considerably different than the stock ones. There may also be a heavier
duty bearing or two in there also.
Steve Ferguson
San Diego, CA
 
Steve,
Your absolutely correct that the materials of construction do not affect
how the pump works. The design of the impeller is the whole secret.
The newer pumps that has been sold lately by Cinnabar and others is an
open impeller design, almost a paddlewheel. The pump that has been
recommended for years by a lot of the GMC folks is a closed impeller
design which is more efficient. If you check your Summit catalog you
will notice that a majority of the high volume pumps offer a closed
style impeller or there is even a kit to convert the open impeller to a
closed style for more flow. This change has caused a lot of controversy
within the GMC Net of which pump to use or is best. One comment earlier
is the week was too high of a flow could cause overheating problems and
that possibility depends on the condition of you entire cooling system.

The real reason as I see it is that the older style pump with the larger
enclosed impeller is correct is because our engines very rarely run over
2450 rpm if you have the 3.07 final drive. If you have a different
final drive, say a 3.46 or 3.55 your open impeller pump may be ok at
speed but may be marginal at slower traffic. At these lower rpm's you
need a pump that can move more coolant. The open impellers are of a
passenger car design and they are designed to operate at a higher rpm in
a smaller displacement motor. Without seeing the actual flow vs rpm
curves for
these pumps my guess is that they do not move as much coolant at the
rpm's that our motors operate at. With the number of motors that this
new pump fits my opinion is that it is probably marginal at best with
the corporate thought that one pump fits all today. If you can find the
old style impeller pump, get it!

J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
77 Eleganza II
Michigan



>
> "oh you have read all of that propaganda have you,
> well what the impeller is made of does not in any way affect how the
> pump works".
> Arch,
> Take a look in your dog-eared Summit catalog at water pumps. The only
> difference between the stock replacements and the "real" performance
> ones is the anti-cavitation type of impellers used. Their design is
> considerably different than the stock ones. There may also be a heavier
> duty bearing or two in there also.
> Steve Ferguson
> San Diego, CA
 
Yep yep
lets put them up there. Seems like every one is using the TRW water pump.
I just came back from ALBQ and several there were using this one. I have a
picture of mine on the page,from Mondello which is the TRW. It si not a
cast pump, but has a backing plate and is a high flow.
gene

>Would be very interesting for you to send some pix to Gene for posting.
>
>That way, we can compare what you got from the "official GM parts licensee"
>to those in the waterpump article in GMCMM a year or so ago.
>
>Also, I'm using what appears to be am identical stamped steel impeller
>AC/Delco replacement. I put it on before knowing about the cast iron water
>pump 'issue.' Works fine.
>
>Mark
>
>
>In a message dated 10/5/99 5:29:32 PM Central Daylight Time,
>|powerjon
>|writes:
>|
>|> You really
>|> want the pump that has the 4 1/4" cast iron impeller with the large
>|> paddles. I would send it back to Cinnabar! You might call Ray Curtis
>|> at Eaton GMC & RV 1-800-764-3673 and see if he still have the good pump.
>|>
>
>
Genef -- 77PB/ore/ca
GMC MOTORHOME INFORMATION
http://www.california.com/~eagle/
 
There are stamped and there are stamped. I think the TRW ones have a
backing plate that makes it different from the cheap ones. I will see if I
can back up this wild statement.
gene

>In a message dated 10/6/99 6:55:34 AM Central Daylight Time, grady
>writes:
>
>>
>> Also, I'm using what appears to be am identical stamped steel impeller
>> AC/Delco replacement. I put it on before knowing about the cast iron water
>> pump 'issue.' Works fine.
>>
>Mark
>
>Congratulations!!! You are number 7 to say they have the stamped
>steel pump with no problems. Not a single person has said they have
>the steel impeller and have had problems. This myth may well be on
>its death bed. Sure would like to hear from others. The beat goes on.
>
>Take Care
>Arch
>
Genef -- 77PB/ore/ca
GMC MOTORHOME INFORMATION
http://www.california.com/~eagle/
 
Arch,
Nope sure didn't. I was surprised at just how little really did come with
the engine. One double sided sheet of overview and a 15 page book on the
Quadrajet full of cartoon characters... Geez, what do you expect for $5K

Nate '75GB (loving this 75 degree weather) Omaha



Was it a Caspro? Thats the problem I have run into. They only have
one. Tom and my Mechanic friend have informed me that I was
wrong. Still trying to find info on Caspro Cam----Nate did a cam
card come with your engine?
 
That's what Steven Ferguson [botiemad] sent me as a reply to one of
my posts. He said that about 6 degrees advance on the cam would lower the 70
mph sweet spot down to where I would like it (about 60-65). If it would it
would save a TON instead of 350 gears. Has anyone else done (or had done)
something like this?

Nate '75GB (camed in) Omaha

 
Well, I think Chuck Stoddard is probably in New Mexico at the GMCWS rally.
I don't know a lot about the Caspro operation, but I always figured Chuck to
be the "brain trust" of the outfit. With him out of town, there probably
nobody to give out good technical info.

Just a thought,
Patrick

>
> This is disheartening... What if I need support on my new engine?
>
> Nate '75GB (hmmm...) Omaha
>
> John
>
> Thanks that is more info than I have been able to get out of Caspro
> in the last 3 days. I am not going to tell you how frustrating this is
> getting to be. The people there cannot even give me the basic
> cam card info. When I call tech support all I get is an answering
> machine with no return of phone calls. I grow tired of our friends.
>
> Take Care
> Arch
>
 
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