water pump / thermostat or flow restrictor?

heinz wittenbecher

New member
Mar 1, 1998
1,470
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> Just be sure to leave a good thermostat in place, and that should
provide
> all the flow limitation you need.
>
> My .02.
>
> Rick Staples

Rick, Thank you very much for your excellent research and explanation re the
Tranny. I'm going to be reviewing my tranny cooling installation while the
front is still all accessible.

To All:
Re thermostat vs Mondello type restrictor scheme.

Is there some firsthand feedback available from users?
Does it take longer to warm up?
How about when going from 60 degree coastal whether to the 110 degrees plus?
I can't quite get it clear in my mind that a restrictor installed for 60
degree ambiant will maintain/control temperature as ambiant rises.

I ordered the kit along with my new waterpump but am still pondering on
whether to install it or not.

TIA - Heinz
 
Heinz I don't think the restricter is the way to go and hope someone at
Mondello did not recommend it. You still need a thermostat to regulate
engine temperature.

>> Just be sure to leave a good thermostat in place, and that should
>provide
>> all the flow limitation you need.
>>
>> My .02.
>>
>> Rick Staples
>
>Rick, Thank you very much for your excellent research and explanation re the
>Tranny. I'm going to be reviewing my tranny cooling installation while the
>front is still all accessible.
>
>To All:
>Re thermostat vs Mondello type restrictor scheme.
>
>Is there some firsthand feedback available from users?
>Does it take longer to warm up?
>How about when going from 60 degree coastal whether to the 110 degrees plus?
>I can't quite get it clear in my mind that a restrictor installed for 60
>degree ambiant will maintain/control temperature as ambiant rises.
>
>I ordered the kit along with my new waterpump but am still pondering on
>whether to install it or not.
>
>TIA - Heinz
>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
"The beautiful Mohawk Vally"
 
> Heinz I don't think the restricter is the way to go and hope someone at
> Mondello did not recommend it.

To be fair... I guess it could come down to a very fine line of whether they
did or didn't. I can't recall the exchange exactly but overall it went
something like this:

hw> I'm going to do the timing chain, what parts do I need?
got the partnumbers for the chain set

hw> I'm going to put on a new waterpump and I need one for reverse rotation
with serpentine belt.
told me about both, the 99 and 399 but did mention that the 399 delivers
equally well in reverse and then he gave me the part# for the $99 one. [just
a note here: no definitive recommendation was made even though as it turns
out there should have been. It was only after I queeried using the $99 pump
in my reverse rotation application that I was told no, it needs to be the
399 model... hence another order yesterday for overnight delivery.]

hw> I asked about thermostat and running temp.
reply> we use a restricter kit and he proceeded to tell me about how it
works and that restrictors of different size are included in the kit.
Now... while he did'nt actually say so in so many exact words, it was a good
selling job and I decided to order it to take a look at it, i.e. I wasn't
totally convinced myself.

[ so... I wasn't told to, but it was certainly implied as being the thing to
do as the benefits of the restrictor were touted. ]

hw> What else should I be doing while in there for the timing chain?
That's when we got into the button and camshaft etc. and I won't bore you
with that one again as we've already chewed that one once or twice.

>You still need a thermostat to regulate
> engine temperature.
>

That's what I think too... but what the h..., I'm just a lowly GMC-DIY'er
:-)

Perhaps I've just raised Mondello too high in my mind as I have considered
them to be authoritive and helpful, but only from the sidelines until now. I
thought them to be more than just a parts seller for some reason, hence the
extra value placed on what they say. Perhaps I need to change their status
from expert to parts seller until my experiences with them have improved, or
rather until I have more personal experiences to draw from for a better
informed decision.

Heinz

>

> >> Just be sure to leave a good thermostat in place, and that should
> >provide
> >> all the flow limitation you need.
> >>
> >> My .02.
> >>
> >> Rick Staples
> >
> >Rick, Thank you very much for your excellent research and explanation re
the
> >Tranny. I'm going to be reviewing my tranny cooling installation while
the
> >front is still all accessible.
> >
> >To All:
> >Re thermostat vs Mondello type restrictor scheme.
> >
> >Is there some firsthand feedback available from users?
> >Does it take longer to warm up?
> >How about when going from 60 degree coastal whether to the 110 degrees
plus?
> >I can't quite get it clear in my mind that a restrictor installed for 60
> >degree ambiant will maintain/control temperature as ambiant rises.
> >
> >I ordered the kit along with my new waterpump but am still pondering on
> >whether to install it or not.
> >
> >TIA - Heinz
> >
> >
> >
> Tom & Marg Warner
> Vernon Center NY
> 1976 palmbeach
> "The beautiful Mohawk Vally"
>
>
 
> One other point: hot-rodders in Southern California have for years
gotten
>away with things like no choke, no thermostat, etc, due to the climate in
>which they live. (I seem to recall the renowned John Muir recommended
>removing the choke and thermostat (yes, they had one) from VW Beetles in his
>famous "Idiot's Guide", even though such a configuration would mean little
or
>no heat, oil contamination, and hard starting/stalling in much of the
>country...) California practice doesn't always travel well.

FWIW, Mondello's place in Paso Robles is relatively speaking on the coast
and not terribly far south. The temps do get down to near freezing (nothing
compared to Maine and Massachussetts). Here in Soquel it gets cold enough
to need the choke & thermostat at least when intially running the engine.

Henry
PS, there's a lot of tricks that Mondello recommends for the track but not
street.
Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting
PO Box 1270 / product readiness reviews
Soquel, Ca 95073 / IP reviews
ph: (831) 462-5199 / full service marketing
fax: (831) 462-5198
http://www.henry-davis.com/ http://www.henry-davis.com
 
>
> I think the restrictor is a result of several lines of thought.
> Remember Mondello wants to build bullet proof engines so, this is what
> they told me.
>
> 1 The restrictor will never stick shut and blow your engine.
> 2 The one they use runs the engine at about 180 deg. all the time. I
> have been in the snow and the heater still worked but was not burnig
> hot.

Chances are that the "not burning hot" would be normal even with a 180
degree thermostat. We used to change thermostats regularily in fall and
spring when living in the north country. (The real north country, i.e. Yukon
and North West Territories)

Do you run an improved temp gauge Gene, or just the standard?
I.e. accurate enough to tell if the 180 fell in the snow? and how about
desert?

It's still a little hard for me to fathom that outside air temp will not
effect engine temp but perhaps the engine sets up it's very own weather
environment.

Thanks a lot for jumping in... I may put it in just to slay another myth are
substantiate a new fact. I do plan to run the GM recommended 190-195 degrees
though.

> 3 You do not want full open (ie no restrictor) since the flow is too
> fast and will not come up to temp.
> 4 GMC MH do not usually have a problem of running too cold and have a
> need to reduce the cooling with a thermostat.
>
>
> I must admit I almost told them to put in a thermostat any way, ( old
> habits) but then I thought --- their motor--their 5 year warranty-
> their problem.

Excellent point.

> I have had no problems so far with warm up or being too
> cool, or too hot. I feel the thermostat might be an application
> dependent issue. It just might be the GMC MH is a special case that
> does not need it.
>

I guess I'll decide after looking at.
One thing in my favor... at least I'd know fairly quickly how different it
would be as I have a good record from the AV10 as far as previous temps go.

Heinz
 
> PS, there's a lot of tricks that Mondello recommends for the track but not
> street.
> Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting

Henry, I would truly hope that once one identifies himself as a GMC owner
that any verbal recommendations would be limited to being applicable, i.e.
street and hopefully even GMC related.

I guess just like with most non-exclusive-GMC businesses we (GMC owners) may
be relatively small fish in the big ocean of their income... However, once
those businesses truly understand the power of the net and realize that we
are no longer single GMC owners arriving at their doorstep perhaps we'll get
elevated up the ladder a bit as a group.

Thank you all for the very hearty and informative exchange of information.

Heinz
 
Gene,
Unfortunately the digi-gauge will not help as the LED's are too coarse for
accurate measuring. (Unless it's a different one than I used to have).
The LED's are great for seeing normal at a glance, i.e. green.
It's also great for seeing orange as it approaches red and noise :-)
(audible alarm)

Have you been up to Oregon with it yet? like over the sikius, shasta, etc?

Got my water washers (restrictor kit) and gold plated WP today. Funny... I
always thought gold was kinda yellowish in color :-)

Heinz

 
>> PS, there's a lot of tricks that Mondello recommends for the track but not
>> street.
>> Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting
>
>
>Henry, I would truly hope that once one identifies himself as a GMC owner
>that any verbal recommendations would be limited to being applicable, i.e.
>street and hopefully even GMC related.

I've found that Modello himself is excellent on this point - I talked with
him once. But then he has a boat load of experience. His book calls out
those items that are strip only vs street. Some of his guys may be less
attuned to the GMC issues.

>
>I guess just like with most non-exclusive-GMC businesses we (GMC owners) may
>be relatively small fish in the big ocean of their income... However, once
>those businesses truly understand the power of the net and realize that we
>are no longer single GMC owners arriving at their doorstep perhaps we'll get
>elevated up the ladder a bit as a group.

It's interesting to me that the GMC group seems to have impact beyond our
numbers. But then, maybe we're one of the few groups that really updates
the coaches ourselves, or gets really involved in selecting solutions.

Henry

Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting
PO Box 1270 / product readiness reviews
Soquel, Ca 95073 / IP reviews
ph: (831) 462-5199 / full service marketing
fax: (831) 462-5198
http://www.henry-davis.com/ http://www.henry-davis.com
 
Henry I had several talks with Joe Mondello in the last several months and
he really felt humble. He spouts all kinds of information about the 455
engine and even the GMC motorhome. He sent me autographed copies of his
manuals and articles he had written for various magazines on the 455 for the
GMC motorhome. He is a real down to earth guy, a product of the california
1950's. He is trying to get into the GMc motorhome market, and told me with
no reservatin that no one makes a 455 or 403 olds engine as strong and
reliable as his. Notice that he now takes out full page ads in the GMC
Motorhome marketplace for instance.

I sit down and figured what it would cost for me to put together an engine
with all of the things Mondello puts into the one he builds for the GMC, and
decided it was not worth it. He does things that I can't do with the
engine. Special techniques on the crank, special ways to seal certain parts
of the block, fills the exhaust cross overs, etc. My next engine will be a
Mondello for sure (If I ever need one).

>>> PS, there's a lot of tricks that Mondello recommends for the track but not
>>> street.
>>> Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting
>>
>>
>>Henry, I would truly hope that once one identifies himself as a GMC owner
>>that any verbal recommendations would be limited to being applicable, i.e.
>>street and hopefully even GMC related.
>
>I've found that Modello himself is excellent on this point - I talked with
>him once. But then he has a boat load of experience. His book calls out
>those items that are strip only vs street. Some of his guys may be less
>attuned to the GMC issues.
>
>>
>>I guess just like with most non-exclusive-GMC businesses we (GMC owners) may
>>be relatively small fish in the big ocean of their income... However, once
>>those businesses truly understand the power of the net and realize that we
>>are no longer single GMC owners arriving at their doorstep perhaps we'll get
>>elevated up the ladder a bit as a group.
>
>It's interesting to me that the GMC group seems to have impact beyond our
>numbers. But then, maybe we're one of the few groups that really updates
>the coaches ourselves, or gets really involved in selecting solutions.
>
>
>Henry
>
>Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting
>PO Box 1270 / product readiness reviews
>Soquel, Ca 95073 / IP reviews
>ph: (831) 462-5199 / full service marketing
>fax: (831) 462-5198
>http://www.henry-davis.com/ http://www.henry-davis.com
>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
"The beautiful Mohawk Vally"
 
>Henry I had several talks with Joe Mondello in the last several months and
>he really felt humble. He spouts all kinds of information about the 455
>engine and even the GMC motorhome. He sent me autographed copies of his
>manuals and articles he had written for various magazines on the 455 for the
>GMC motorhome.

I'm jealous.

He is a real down to earth guy, a product of the california
>1950's. He is trying to get into the GMc motorhome market, and told me with
>no reservatin that no one makes a 455 or 403 olds engine as strong and
>reliable as his. Notice that he now takes out full page ads in the GMC
>Motorhome marketplace for instance.

I think that he figured out the GMC addicts will pay for a strong reliable
engine. With about 3500 coaches on the road, he could have a very good
business just rebuilding GMC MH engines I think - probably 150-250 engines
per year!

>
>I sit down and figured what it would cost for me to put together an engine
>with all of the things Mondello puts into the one he builds for the GMC, and
>decided it was not worth it. He does things that I can't do with the
>engine. Special techniques on the crank, special ways to seal certain parts
>of the block, fills the exhaust cross overs, etc. My next engine will be a
>Mondello for sure (If I ever need one).

Whe I talked with him briefly, I got the idea that he would customize a
rebuild to the GMC and the owner's wants. I don't know how much would go
into a GMC rebuild, but it looks to me like unless you just want to do the
work yourself, there's not a lot of savings once you farm out machining.

I'm considering taking his engine blueprinting course. It's been a lot of
years since I rebuilt an auto engine, but I think that it could prove
interesting for me and others.

Henry

Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting
PO Box 1270 / product readiness reviews
Soquel, Ca 95073 / IP reviews
ph: (831) 462-5199 / full service marketing
fax: (831) 462-5198
http://www.henry-davis.com/ http://www.henry-davis.com
 
>
> I think that he figured out the GMC addicts will pay for a strong reliable
> engine.

Yes indeed, I know that I'm willing.

I just hope that Joe's enthusiasm, knowledge and desire for quality can be
instilled on his staff, now and future.

As is the problem with many specialized businesses, the person that starts
it has what it takes and does it because he or she likes doing it... and
then it becomes successful and requires additional bodies... and quality
(and fun) suffers for the sake of the quantity needed to keep the growing
monster fed.

I truly hope that Mondello will still be "Mondello" when I need that engine.
I hope I won't need it soon... but I know that I will need it.

Heinz
 
Henry everything he teaches in his course is in his mondello Oldsmobile V-8
technical reference manual volume 1 and his Performance products
"Technically prepared".

In his catalog there are pages devoted to recommended parts for use in
Motorhome engines.In addition there is a page of "Motorhome Muscle" with 3
different engines described. Here it is:

Motorhome Muscle
Mondello Motorhome Muscle Products for motorhomes and Coaches are built from
the finest materials available. our products coupled with over 35 years of
experience with engine, cylinder heads and Oldsmobile components give you
the best power and torque available anywhere in the U.S.A. The camshafts we
have designed give "seat of the pants" performance while maintaining
reasonably good mileage. We offer roller steel rocker arms, cast & forged
pistons, stainless steel valves, valve spring kits, oiling systems, chrome
moly rod, main & head bolts, quality engine gasket sets, billet steel
flexplates for Allison 6-bolt torque converters, B&M torque converters and
transmissions, HEI performance distributors plus custom built, blueprinted
cylinder heads, short blocks and complete "Pre-run" new engines. Our
complete engines are available in stock performance rebuild, power
performance rebuild and our very popular 486 c.i.d. or 493 c.i.d. long
stroke engines. The 486 & 493 make hills & mountains feel like your cruising
the flat lands of Kansas. The horsepower & torque of this engine is so good,
it feels like you've added a supercharger to your motorhome. All of our
engines are built to sausly your needs for cruising, towing, mountainous
areas or just a good performing engine for years of enjoyment on the road.
All of our engines have cast or forged pistons, fully prepared connecting
rods and a re-heat treated, shot peened crankshaft. All surfaces, line bore
housings, cam housing and cylinder bores are machined with torque plates to
assure a good ring seal for many years. We deburr and grind all internal &
external surfaces for appearance and longevity. All engines are balanced and
all parts are hand fitted per assembly. The camshafts are degreed, we use
stainless steel valves, Teflon=AE valve seals, roller rocker arms, neoprene
rear main seal, ARP chrome moly rod, main & head bolts. We use a moly
ductile piston ring with hard chromed stainless steel oil rings. We feel
that no one anywhere in the U.S.A., puts a high quality engine together like
we do, using the best products available. Also, all of our engine
components, with the exception of valves, are made in the U.S.A. We have 3
engines available and 3 short blocks available.

Stock Performance Rebuilt 455 Oldsmobile with Stock Heads I Street Porting
$5,800 complete $4,200 short block
Power Performance Rebuilt 455 Oldsmobile with Street I Strip Series Heads
$7,700 complete $4,800 short block
Power Performance Stroker Rebuilt 455 Oldsmobile with Bracket Series Heads
$8,600 complete $5,400 short block

We have designed these engines for Toronado front wheel drive coaches, but
they will also work in rear wheel drive motorhomes. Because of the cracking
problems on the Toronado cast iron intake manifold, our engines do not come
with intake manifolds unless you want to modify the engine box 4" in height
to accommodate the No.2151 Edelbrock Performer. We can also rebuild or build
ni 403 c.i.d., if you want, the prices will be the same for us supplying you
a complete engine.
Our 455 c.i.d. complete engines make between 400 & 450 horsepower and
440-500 ft.lbs. of torque. The horsepower and idle is still very good
between 2500 & 3800 rpm. We produce over 300 hp and 400 ft. lbs. of torque
in these rpm ranges. Our 493 engine makes approximately 500 ft.lbs. of
torque @ 3000 rpm and about 400 horsepower. Our 493 c.i.d. produces 575 ft.
lbs. of
liil 5000 rpm and approximately 490 horsepower. Add $300.00 to the above
packages if you want an Edelbrock Performer intake instilled.

>>Henry I had several talks with Joe Mondello in the last several months and
>>he really felt humble. He spouts all kinds of information about the 455
>>engine and even the GMC motorhome. He sent me autographed copies of his
>>manuals and articles he had written for various magazines on the 455 for=
the
>>GMC motorhome.=20
>
>I'm jealous.
>
> He is a real down to earth guy, a product of the california
>>1950's. He is trying to get into the GMc motorhome market, and told me=
with
>>no reservatin that no one makes a 455 or 403 olds engine as strong and
>>reliable as his. Notice that he now takes out full page ads in the GMC
>>Motorhome marketplace for instance.
>
>I think that he figured out the GMC addicts will pay for a strong reliable
>engine. With about 3500 coaches on the road, he could have a very good
>business just rebuilding GMC MH engines I think - probably 150-250 engines
>per year!=20
>
>>
>>I sit down and figured what it would cost for me to put together an engine
>>with all of the things Mondello puts into the one he builds for the GMC,=
and
>>decided it was not worth it. He does things that I can't do with the
>>engine. Special techniques on the crank, special ways to seal certain=
parts
>>of the block, fills the exhaust cross overs, etc. My next engine will be a
>>Mondello for sure (If I ever need one).
>
>Whe I talked with him briefly, I got the idea that he would customize a
>rebuild to the GMC and the owner's wants. I don't know how much would go
>into a GMC rebuild, but it looks to me like unless you just want to do the
>work yourself, there's not a lot of savings once you farm out machining.
>
>I'm considering taking his engine blueprinting course. It's been a lot of
>years since I rebuilt an auto engine, but I think that it could prove
>interesting for me and others.
>
>Henry
>
>Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting=20
>PO Box 1270 / product readiness reviews=20
>Soquel, Ca 95073 / IP reviews=20
>ph: (831) 462-5199 / full service marketing=20
>fax: (831) 462-5198=20
>http://www.henry-davis.com/ http://www.henry-davis.com
>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
"The beautiful Mohawk Vally"