Transmission Question (Again)

T

tom winslow

New member
Jun 28, 1998
156
0
0
Today I drew about a once of Transmission Fluid out through the dip stick
tube. I did not smell burned (to me) but it also does not have the reddish
color - it is more brown looking.

I took the sample to a friend of mine that is a aircraft mechanic. He
examined it and immediately said that it is burned.

His recommendation is that I change the transmission fluid soon. Remember, I
know nothing about transmissions. He told me that the color and smell of the
fluid does not necessarily mean that the transmission is beginning to fail -
but, may mean that the fluid has not been changed in a long time.

Question:
Who else has had a similar situation and what was the solution?
Is there a way to get all of the transmission fluid out (of the torque
converter)?
Does it make sense to install a drain plug kit while the pan is off?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

TW

- --
Thomas P. Winslow
1974 GMC Eleganza SE TZE064V101146
189 Hicks Creek Road, Troutman, NC 28166
h704-528-5868 * f704-528-5868 * p704-878-1157
E-Mail: winslow * tom_winslow
Web Page: http://www.iredell.com
 
Tom,
Your mechanic friend is most likely right. When you replace the fluid you
should also replace the filter and gasket. If you want to upgrade the system
you can install a Ragusa finned aluminum pan ($150 + shipping). This pan holds
one extra quart and has both a drain plug and a fitting for a temperature
probe. To the best of my limited knowledge something like a quart of old fluid
remains and cannot be easily drained out.
Gary
'77 Kingsley
North Bend, Oregon Coast

> Today I drew about a once of Transmission Fluid out through the dip stick
> tube. I did not smell burned (to me) but it also does not have the reddish
> color - it is more brown looking.
>
> I took the sample to a friend of mine that is a aircraft mechanic. He
> examined it and immediately said that it is burned.
>
> His recommendation is that I change the transmission fluid soon. Remember, I
> know nothing about transmissions. He told me that the color and smell of the
> fluid does not necessarily mean that the transmission is beginning to fail -
> but, may mean that the fluid has not been changed in a long time.
>
> Question:
> Who else has had a similar situation and what was the solution?
> Is there a way to get all of the transmission fluid out (of the torque
> converter)?
> Does it make sense to install a drain plug kit while the pan is off?
>
> Any other suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> TW
>
> --
> Thomas P. Winslow
> 1974 GMC Eleganza SE TZE064V101146
> 189 Hicks Creek Road, Troutman, NC 28166
> h704-528-5868 * f704-528-5868 * p704-878-1157
> E-Mail: winslow * tom_winslow
> Web Page: http://www.iredell.com
 
>
> >>
>
>You should change your transmission fluid and the transmission filter
>periodically. If you want to change the fluid more frequently I suppose a
>drain plug would allow you to do so. However, don't just replace the fluid
>and neglect the filter.
>
>Emery Stora

I always install a drain plug kit when I first service one of my
transmissions. It makes each subsequent fluid and filter change less messy,
as you can drain the bulk of the fluid before you drop the pan to access the
filter.

Chuck
77 Kingsley
North Idaho
 
I want to do this before I go to the DixieLanders Rally at Bean Station, TN
on May 6. I am going to order the Ragusa tranny pan on Monday. Now the
question of temperature gage, filter type and fluid type.

I assume that most GMCers have adopted a similar type of transmission temp
gage? Any recommendation? Where is best location?
Do I need to use the std filter that is available from the auto parts store?
Now I have the suggestion that I go synthetic, I know nothing about
synthetic except the few items that I have read here.

Now what?

tw

- --
Thomas P. Winslow
1974 GMC Eleganza SE TZE064V101146
189 Hicks Creek Road, Troutman, NC 28166
h704-528-5868 * f704-528-5868 * p704-878-1157
E-Mail: winslow * tom_winslow
Web Page: http://www.iredell.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-gmcmotorhome
[mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]On Behalf Of
heinz
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 5:58 PM
To: gmcmotorhome
Subject: RE: GMC: Transmission Question (Again)

Tom,
I'm sure there will be other responses, but here's my 2 cents worth.

I'd suggest getting a Ragusa tranny pan so that next time it's easier to
drain, i.e. it has a drainplug.
change fluid and filter after it's been a while change both again after a
while. I know there is ways to drain the converter but it means
disconnecting stuff and my feeling is that it's easier to do a couple of
short changes.

After that keep tabs on it and in particular take note of smooth downshifts
into low on short hills. When mine went, for quite a while before it acually
did I had trouble gettin going if parked on a steep incline. Not ridiculus
steep, just somewhat and a standing start. I blamed it on no power, i.e.
engine, but it turned out to be tranny.

...and you might want to consider going synthetic.

Heinz
www.bytedesigns.com/gmc

>
>Today I drew about a once of Transmission Fluid out through the dip
stick
>tube. I did not smell burned (to me) but it also does not have the
reddish
>color - it is more brown looking.
>
>I took the sample to a friend of mine that is a aircraft mechanic. He
>examined it and immediately said that it is burned.
>
>His recommendation is that I change the transmission fluid soon.
Remember, I
>know nothing about transmissions. He told me that the color and smell of
the
>fluid does not necessarily mean that the transmission is beginning to
fail -
>but, may mean that the fluid has not been changed in a long time.
>
>Question:
>Who else has had a similar situation and what was the solution?
>Is there a way to get all of the transmission fluid out (of the torque
>converter)?
>Does it make sense to install a drain plug kit while the pan is off?
>
>Any other suggestions?
>
>Thanks,
>
>TW
>
>--
>Thomas P. Winslow
>1974 GMC Eleganza SE TZE064V101146
>189 Hicks Creek Road, Troutman, NC 28166
>h704-528-5868 * f704-528-5868 * p704-878-1157
>E-Mail: winslow * tom_winslow
>Web Page: http://www.iredell.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
 
Tom;
Most parts stores will have a filter kit which includes all that you need. Ask
for a GM 425 transmission filter kit. I use "Mobile 1 ATF", one of the best
synthetics for fluid (and Mobile 1 15/50 in the engine). Again any parts store
can fix you up with a temp sensor and a gauge. Do not put any thread sealers on
the sensor when you install it -- it must make a good electrical ground
contact. My transmission runs about 170 degrees on straight easy roads, climbs
to 200 on grades. Get a gauge what goes from 150 to 300.
Gary
'77 Kingsley
North Bend, Oregon Coast

> I want to do this before I go to the DixieLanders Rally at Bean Station, TN
> on May 6. I am going to order the Ragusa tranny pan on Monday. Now the
> question of temperature gage, filter type and fluid type.
>
> I assume that most GMCers have adopted a similar type of transmission temp
> gage? Any recommendation? Where is best location?
> Do I need to use the std filter that is available from the auto parts store?
> Now I have the suggestion that I go synthetic, I know nothing about
> synthetic except the few items that I have read here.
>
> Now what?
>
> tw
>
> --
> Thomas P. Winslow
> 1974 GMC Eleganza SE TZE064V101146
> 189 Hicks Creek Road, Troutman, NC 28166
> h704-528-5868 * f704-528-5868 * p704-878-1157
> E-Mail: winslow * tom_winslow
> Web Page: http://www.iredell.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gmcmotorhome
> [mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]On Behalf Of
> heinz
> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 5:58 PM
> To: gmcmotorhome
> Subject: RE: GMC: Transmission Question (Again)
>
> Tom,
> I'm sure there will be other responses, but here's my 2 cents worth.
>
> I'd suggest getting a Ragusa tranny pan so that next time it's easier to
> drain, i.e. it has a drainplug.
> change fluid and filter after it's been a while change both again after a
> while. I know there is ways to drain the converter but it means
> disconnecting stuff and my feeling is that it's easier to do a couple of
> short changes.
>
> After that keep tabs on it and in particular take note of smooth downshifts
> into low on short hills. When mine went, for quite a while before it acually
> did I had trouble gettin going if parked on a steep incline. Not ridiculus
> steep, just somewhat and a standing start. I blamed it on no power, i.e.
> engine, but it turned out to be tranny.
>
> ...and you might want to consider going synthetic.
>
> Heinz
> www.bytedesigns.com/gmc
>
> >
> >Today I drew about a once of Transmission Fluid out through the dip
> stick
> >tube. I did not smell burned (to me) but it also does not have the
> reddish
> >color - it is more brown looking.
> >
> >I took the sample to a friend of mine that is a aircraft mechanic. He
> >examined it and immediately said that it is burned.
> >
> >His recommendation is that I change the transmission fluid soon.
> Remember, I
> >know nothing about transmissions. He told me that the color and smell of
> the
> >fluid does not necessarily mean that the transmission is beginning to
> fail -
> >but, may mean that the fluid has not been changed in a long time.
> >
> >Question:
> >Who else has had a similar situation and what was the solution?
> >Is there a way to get all of the transmission fluid out (of the torque
> >converter)?
> >Does it make sense to install a drain plug kit while the pan is off?
> >
> >Any other suggestions?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >TW
> >
> >--
> >Thomas P. Winslow
> >1974 GMC Eleganza SE TZE064V101146
> >189 Hicks Creek Road, Troutman, NC 28166
> >h704-528-5868 * f704-528-5868 * p704-878-1157
> >E-Mail: winslow * tom_winslow
> >Web Page: http://www.iredell.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
 
for the little cost I would take it to a large shop that specializes in
transmissions. they have the equipment to remove all of the fluid, check
the pressures and tell you whether the tranny needs work or not. Peace of
mind is cheap.

>Today I drew about a once of Transmission Fluid out through the dip stick
>tube. I did not smell burned (to me) but it also does not have the reddish
>color - it is more brown looking.
>
>I took the sample to a friend of mine that is a aircraft mechanic. He
>examined it and immediately said that it is burned.
>
>His recommendation is that I change the transmission fluid soon. Remember, I
>know nothing about transmissions. He told me that the color and smell of the
>fluid does not necessarily mean that the transmission is beginning to fail -
>but, may mean that the fluid has not been changed in a long time.
>
>Question:
>Who else has had a similar situation and what was the solution?
>Is there a way to get all of the transmission fluid out (of the torque
>converter)?
>Does it make sense to install a drain plug kit while the pan is off?
>
>Any other suggestions?
>
>Thanks,
>
>TW
>
>--
>Thomas P. Winslow
>1974 GMC Eleganza SE TZE064V101146
>189 Hicks Creek Road, Troutman, NC 28166
>h704-528-5868 * f704-528-5868 * p704-878-1157
>E-Mail: winslow * tom_winslow
>Web Page: http://www.iredell.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
 
The ragusa pans sure do look nice but at $150 they are not the way I would
go. I think you can get more cooling by installing and help your tranny more
by installing a perma-cool transmission filter kit,part number PRM-10677,
$78.95 plus shipping, that includes an external 50,000 mile canister filter,
aluminum mount, remote temperature gauge, high pressure high temperature
hoses, brass fittings, stainless steel clamps, mounting hardware and
instuctions for installation. As Arch says that what I am going to do. I
also intend to install the perma-cool PRM-12318 dual pass oil cooler.

>Tom,
>Your mechanic friend is most likely right. When you replace the fluid you
>should also replace the filter and gasket. If you want to upgrade the system
>you can install a Ragusa finned aluminum pan ($150 + shipping). This pan holds
>one extra quart and has both a drain plug and a fitting for a temperature
>probe. To the best of my limited knowledge something like a quart of old fluid
>remains and cannot be easily drained out.
>Gary
>'77 Kingsley
>North Bend, Oregon Coast
>
>

>
>> Today I drew about a once of Transmission Fluid out through the dip stick
>> tube. I did not smell burned (to me) but it also does not have the reddish
>> color - it is more brown looking.
>>
>> I took the sample to a friend of mine that is a aircraft mechanic. He
>> examined it and immediately said that it is burned.
>>
>> His recommendation is that I change the transmission fluid soon. Remember, I
>> know nothing about transmissions. He told me that the color and smell of the
>> fluid does not necessarily mean that the transmission is beginning to fail -
>> but, may mean that the fluid has not been changed in a long time.
>>
>> Question:
>> Who else has had a similar situation and what was the solution?
>> Is there a way to get all of the transmission fluid out (of the torque
>> converter)?
>> Does it make sense to install a drain plug kit while the pan is off?
>>
>> Any other suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> TW
>>
>> --
>> Thomas P. Winslow
>> 1974 GMC Eleganza SE TZE064V101146
>> 189 Hicks Creek Road, Troutman, NC 28166
>> h704-528-5868 * f704-528-5868 * p704-878-1157
>> E-Mail: winslow * tom_winslow
>> Web Page: http://www.iredell.com
>
>
>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
 
Emory,
Quote:
"I think that the mechanic put the particles in the pan to con me into an
expensive transmission overhaul"

Taking your quote a bit further, this type thing leads me to the need for
the "Black List."

It's that time again. Since some new "lurkers" have spoken up, we have a
GMC list of owners/supporters who are making themselves available for what
ever assistance they can offer to other GMC'ers on the road traveling. This
list is for those who will offer help to others on a 24 hour basis, rain or
shine. Sorry no help for those in SOB's. Just a GMC. The list is being
maintained on a temporary basis with hopes and plans (?) that it will be
incorporated into an existing website later.

Currently you can view this list at
http://www.henry-davis.com/GMC/GMCAssist.htm thanks to Henry Davis. While
there, visit around and enjoy his work.

To sign up for the list, which is not mandatory to anyone, just send an
email to rblack and you will be added to the list and a copy
will then be sent to you for corrections, etc. Please send name,
city,state, country, area of coverage, phone number and any other pertinent
information such as "facilities and knowledge to do off frame restoration."
We are just trying to have someone with local information to avoid rip-offs
to fellow travelers who have problems. To obtain a list for your own
travels or use, whether on the list or not, email rblack with
"List" as the subject, and one will be sent ASAP.

Thanks for your support of the "Black List."

Roger
 
The very fine metallic particles in the pan are pretty much normal,
especially the first time it's opened up. Apparently much of this is from
the initial break in of the new transmission and machining of the parts.

I've never dropped the pan on a transmission the first time that there
weren't particles in the bottom. This is a common trick. He didn't have to
put them in there; they're normal. Seems to go away or all but after the
first time.

Congrats on your eight year test drive.

Travis

- -----Original Message-----
From: EMERYSTORA
To: gmcmotorhome
Date: Saturday, April 17, 1999 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: Transmission Question (Again)

>

>
>transmissions. They have the equipment to remove all of the fluid, check
>the pressures and tell you whether the tranny needs work or not. Peace of
>mind is cheap. >>
>
>Beware of shops that you don't know especially when you have out of state
>plates. In 1991 while on a trip I had a problem with my transmission doing
a
>sloppy shift from 2nd to high. I was near a small town in Arizona and they
>had one transmission shop. They pulled the pan and brought it out to the
>waiting room to show me silver colored metal particles on the bottom of the
>pan. I was told that I would need a $1200 transmission job. I asked them
to
>first put in a new filter and change the fluid. I took it for a test drive
>and it seemed to work OK. I figured that I could get back to California
and
>if it needed work I knew a mechanic I could trust.
>
>It is now 1999 and I am still on that test drive. Eight years and many
>thousands of miles have gone by and I have not had anymore problems with
the
>tranny. I do change the oil and filter religiously now. I have never
found
>metal particles in the pan. I think that the mechanic put the particles in
>the pan to con me into an expensive transmission overhaul. I suspect that
my
>shifting problem was from a clogged filter.
>
>Emery Stora
>77 Kingsley
>Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
 
Manny:

Last month I mentioned in a similiar response that Chuck Stoddard advises
not to use a gasket with the Ragusa pan, because it inhibits heat transfer
from the transmission, but to use RTV as a sealant. That was subsequently
questioned as possibly getting into the transmission fluid. I responded
saying I would verify with Chuck at Myrtle Beach.

I did ask him again during his seminar, saying that someone questioned the
possibility of the RTV sealant getting into the transmission.

He still recommends not using the gasket and says to carefully put RTV
sealant on both the Ragusa pan flange as well as the mating surface on the
transmission.

Someone else there claimed that if it did get into the transmission that the
filter would trap it.

Paul Bartz

From: MTrovao
Sent: 4/17/99 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: Transmission Question (Again)

Tom, My suggestion is to raise the front up and put a couple of jacks
under
the front beem. Remove the tranny pan, and let it drain until you get
the
Ragusa pan.
In the mean time got to an auto parts store and get a transmossion
filter
kit. Comes with filter and gasket. The gasket that Ragusa uses is made
of
cork. I don't know about everyone elses but mine always leaked. The
gasket
that comes with the filter kit is much better. The ragusa pan comes with
a
port for a temp sensor. Going synthetic is probably the ultimate but its
up
to the individual. Myself, I am using synthetic oil, greases, and atf.
My two cents worth in there also.

Manny Trovao 73 Custom/ex-Glacier

In a message dated 4/17/99 5:48:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

I assume that most GMCers have adopted a similar type of transmission
temp
gage? Any recommendation? Where is best location?
Do I need to use the std filter that is available from the auto parts
store?
Now I have the suggestion that I go synthetic, I know nothing about
synthetic except the few items that I have read here.>>
 
Thomas, Tell me howto get in touch with Perma Cool. Thanks.
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta
(I like the idea of the EXTERNAL filter.)

>The ragusa pans sure do look nice but at $150 they are not the way I would
>go. I think you can get more cooling by installing and help your tranny more
>by installing a perma-cool transmission filter kit,part number PRM-10677,
>$78.95 plus shipping, that includes an external 50,000 mile canister filter,
>aluminum mount, remote temperature gauge, high pressure high temperature
>hoses, brass fittings, stainless steel clamps, mounting hardware and
>instuctions for installation. As Arch says that what I am going to do. I
>also intend to install the perma-cool PRM-12318 dual pass oil cooler.
>

>>Tom,
>>Your mechanic friend is most likely right. When you replace the fluid you
>>should also replace the filter and gasket. If you want to upgrade the system
>>you can install a Ragusa finned aluminum pan ($150 + shipping). This pan
holds
>>one extra quart and has both a drain plug and a fitting for a temperature
>>probe. To the best of my limited knowledge something like a quart of old
fluid
>>remains and cannot be easily drained out.
>>Gary
>>'77 Kingsley
>>North Bend, Oregon Coast
>>
>>

>>
>>> Today I drew about a once of Transmission Fluid out through the dip stick
>>> tube. I did not smell burned (to me) but it also does not have the reddish
>>> color - it is more brown looking.
>>>
>>> I took the sample to a friend of mine that is a aircraft mechanic. He
>>> examined it and immediately said that it is burned.
>>>
>>> His recommendation is that I change the transmission fluid soon. Remember, I
>>> know nothing about transmissions. He told me that the color and smell of the
>>> fluid does not necessarily mean that the transmission is beginning to fail -
>>> but, may mean that the fluid has not been changed in a long time.
>>>
>>> Question:
>>> Who else has had a similar situation and what was the solution?
>>> Is there a way to get all of the transmission fluid out (of the torque
>>> converter)?
>>> Does it make sense to install a drain plug kit while the pan is off?
>>>
>>> Any other suggestions?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> TW
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thomas P. Winslow
>>> 1974 GMC Eleganza SE TZE064V101146
>>> 189 Hicks Creek Road, Troutman, NC 28166
>>> h704-528-5868 * f704-528-5868 * p704-878-1157
>>> E-Mail: winslow * tom_winslow
>>> Web Page: http://www.iredell.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Tom & Marg Warner
>Vernon Center NY
>1976 palmbeach
>
>
Dick Bachert, Editor CATTALES and member, National Board, Citizens for an
Alternative Tax System (CATS)

To learn the WHOLE story on TAX REFORM, check out one of the following:
Toll Free Info Line: 1-800-767-7577
FAX-ON-DEMAND: 716-720-2025
On-Line: http://www.nrst.org

"As life is action and passion, it is required of a man that he be part of
the action and passion of his times LEST HE BE JUDGED NEVER TO HAVE LIVED."
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

"Those who prevent PEACEFUL CHANGE invite VIOLENT REVOLUTION." Newt Gingrich
paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson.
 
I doubt that the gasket makes much difference in heat transfer. Heat flows from
hot to cold. In the transmission, the heat is generated in the fluid from the
slipping action of the torque converter. Certainly the tranny case is heated in
the process, but I suspect that the oil circulation causes the pan and case to
be pretty close to the same temperature. If the temp is equal- there won't be
much heat transfer in the surface where they join. And if there is, any
material that separates metal to metal, even RTV, will have some insulating
characteristic. Just my opinion, but when I installed my Ragussa pan, I used
the gasket that came with the filter.
Clark Searle

> Manny:
>
> Last month I mentioned in a similiar response that Chuck Stoddard advises
> not to use a gasket with the Ragusa pan, because it inhibits heat transfer
> from the transmission, but to use RTV as a sealant. That was subsequently
> questioned as possibly getting into the transmission fluid. I responded
> saying I would verify with Chuck at Myrtle Beach.
>
> I did ask him again during his seminar, saying that someone questioned the
> possibility of the RTV sealant getting into the transmission.
>
> He still recommends not using the gasket and says to carefully put RTV
> sealant on both the Ragusa pan flange as well as the mating surface on the
> transmission.
>
> Someone else there claimed that if it did get into the transmission that the
> filter would trap it.
>
> Paul Bartz
>
> From: MTrovao
> Sent: 4/17/99 9:15 PM
> Subject: Re: GMC: Transmission Question (Again)
>
> Tom, My suggestion is to raise the front up and put a couple of jacks
> under
> the front beem. Remove the tranny pan, and let it drain until you get
> the
> Ragusa pan.
> In the mean time got to an auto parts store and get a transmossion
> filter
> kit. Comes with filter and gasket. The gasket that Ragusa uses is made
> of
> cork. I don't know about everyone elses but mine always leaked. The
> gasket
> that comes with the filter kit is much better. The ragusa pan comes with
> a
> port for a temp sensor. Going synthetic is probably the ultimate but its
> up
> to the individual. Myself, I am using synthetic oil, greases, and atf.
> My two cents worth in there also.
>
> Manny Trovao 73 Custom/ex-Glacier
>
> In a message dated 4/17/99 5:48:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> I assume that most GMCers have adopted a similar type of transmission
> temp
> gage? Any recommendation? Where is best location?
> Do I need to use the std filter that is available from the auto parts
> store?
> Now I have the suggestion that I go synthetic, I know nothing about
> synthetic except the few items that I have read here.>>
 
I have a strong feeling that in practice one could not measure the
temperature difference between a Ragusa pan with a gasket and one with RTV.
Iron has a lower coefficient of thermal conductivity that aluminum and
aluminum would be lower than one made of copper. The greater transfer of
heat from the Ragusa pan is solely due to its larger surface area than the
stock tranny pan and the fact that it is made from aluminum. Both B&M and
TCI sell aluminum pans for about $100. The B&M pan holds 3-4 more quarts of
fluid than stock.

>Clark
>
>I am with you. The heat transfer is in the oil not in the case. I put my
>gasket on too. I will agree that in theory there should be no gasket.
>I really dont think it will make that much difference. I also think that if
>the oil in the pan is that cool then the trans cooler must be working. Oh
>well I have had a lot of non myth ideas here. Thats what I think.
>
>Take Care
>Arch 76 GB IL
>
>In a message dated 4/18/99 9:20:32 PM Central Daylight Time,

>
>>
>> I doubt that the gasket makes much difference in heat transfer. Heat
>> flows from
>> hot to cold. In the transmission, the heat is generated in the fluid from
>> the
>> slipping action of the torque converter. Certainly the tranny case is
>> heated in
>> the process, but I suspect that the oil circulation causes the pan and
>case
>> to
>> be pretty close to the same temperature. If the temp is equal- there
>won't
>> be
>> much heat transfer in the surface where they join. And if there is, any
>> material that separates metal to metal, even RTV, will have some insulating
>> characteristic. Just my opinion, but when I installed my Ragussa pan, I
>> used
>> the gasket that came with the filter.
>> Clark Searle
>>
>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
 
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