Top tier gas question

J

john r. lebetski

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Dec 20, 2006
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There is a 2013 press release on BP page that says they are proud to join the Top Tier program. However if I go to Toptiergas.com all brands that are
Top Tier are listed but no BP. Did they join then drop out? They advertize their added Invigorate™️ additive but don’t use the required
additive package to make Top Tier? I ask because they reopened an Amoco near me that has cheaper prices and ten cents off on too of that with my BP
card. My XJ has 307,000 mile and runs fine but wondering if this big name brand is inferior.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
Don't overthink.
Just stick to what works.
--
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
 
We were in Anacortes, Washington last weekend at a GMC CASCADERS rally, and
our coach was located overlooking the beach in the Straits of Juan de Fuca.
Directly across the Straits was located a Huge Arco Refinery. Several "cat
cracking" towers were visible and lit up at night, reflecting across the
waters.
Reminded about an advertising campaign by a major producer touting the
benefits of the ingredient "platformate". Turns out that the phrase came
from the cracking tower, and the distillation output pipes located on
Platform Eight of the cracking column.
B.S. abounds in gasoline advertising, and I suspect Top Tier may just
be another one of many. Just buy 87 octane and from a major supplier that
pumps lots of it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:53 PM Mike Hamm via Gmclist
wrote:

> Don't overthink.
> Just stick to what works.
> --
> 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
 
> My XJ has 307,000 mile and runs fine but wondering if this big name brand is inferior.

I used to run high test in my own XJ, (only 150,000 miles on mine) but after a while got sick of paying so much more for it.

After a while, I dropped premium and started using regular with octane booster ...eventually ditching that extra bottle and running straight (usually
Esso) regular.
Jag didn't complain, no pinging and as far as I could tell it didn't seem to make any difference. For the last 5 years that's what I buy - regular
gas. About 20¢/litre less than premium so guessing that's about 75¢? a gallon cheaper. Daily driver BTW.

Larry

--
Larry - Victoria BC -

1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS
exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
 
One of the ads in OK for Top Tier stated "your weedeater doesn't deserve it."

D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot
________________________________
From: James Hupy
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 00:59
To: gmclist
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Top tier gas question

We were in Anacortes, Washington last weekend at a GMC CASCADERS rally, and
our coach was located overlooking the beach in the Straits of Juan de Fuca.
Directly across the Straits was located a Huge Arco Refinery. Several "cat
cracking" towers were visible and lit up at night, reflecting across the
waters.
Reminded about an advertising campaign by a major producer touting the
benefits of the ingredient "platformate". Turns out that the phrase came
from the cracking tower, and the distillation output pipes located on
Platform Eight of the cracking column.
B.S. abounds in gasoline advertising, and I suspect Top Tier may just
be another one of many. Just buy 87 octane and from a major supplier that
pumps lots of it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 8:53 PM Mike Hamm via Gmclist
wrote:

> Don't overthink.
> Just stick to what works.
> --
> 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
I use high test in my electric car.

--
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
 
My '03 Lexus LS 400 has a label on the gas door: High Test Only (not a
direct quote); I usually notice when I start pumping in the Regular, just
like I've done for the 15 years or so I've had the car. Every year or two
I treat it to a tank of Hi Test, but not often 'cause it gives no
indication that it appreciates it. On the rare occasion that I give it 3/4
throttle, it scares me worse than any of the jet planes I flew, so I don't
think I'm losing enough HP to matter. :-)

I never have check the spark plugs, so I don't yet know what the effect on
them has been -- I may need to install that new set I bought 4-5 years
ago. With only about 110,000 miles on 'em, I hope not.

Ken H.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 7:23 PM Mike Hamm via Gmclist <

> I use high test in my electric car.
>
> --
> 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
 
I can feel my Mustang retard the timing ( or something that changes the power output slightly) when I get on it using 8 octane, It's kinda cool
________________________________
From: Ken Henderson
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 7:52 PM
To: GMC Mail List
Cc: Mike Hamm
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Top tier gas question

My '03 Lexus LS 400 has a label on the gas door: High Test Only (not a
direct quote); I usually notice when I start pumping in the Regular, just
like I've done for the 15 years or so I've had the car. Every year or two
I treat it to a tank of Hi Test, but not often 'cause it gives no
indication that it appreciates it. On the rare occasion that I give it 3/4
throttle, it scares me worse than any of the jet planes I flew, so I don't
think I'm losing enough HP to matter. :-)

I never have check the spark plugs, so I don't yet know what the effect on
them has been -- I may need to install that new set I bought 4-5 years
ago. With only about 110,000 miles on 'em, I hope not.

Ken H.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 7:23 PM Mike Hamm via Gmclist <

> I use high test in my electric car.
>
> --
> 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
Newer car computers adjust nearly everything when you use 87 octane instead
of 92. Some even adjust variable valve timing and ignition advance and fuel
injection pulse width. My turbo charged, intercooled, dual overhead cam,
fuel injected, 2.4 liter engine in my PT Dream Cruiser changes nearly
everything when regular is used. Really noticeable power reduction,
especially on high turbo boost conditions.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

> I can feel my Mustang retard the timing ( or something that changes the
> power output slightly) when I get on it using 8 octane, It's kinda cool
> ________________________________
> From: Ken Henderson
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 7:52 PM
> To: GMC Mail List
> Cc: Mike Hamm
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Top tier gas question
>
> My '03 Lexus LS 400 has a label on the gas door: High Test Only (not a
> direct quote); I usually notice when I start pumping in the Regular, just
> like I've done for the 15 years or so I've had the car. Every year or two
> I treat it to a tank of Hi Test, but not often 'cause it gives no
> indication that it appreciates it. On the rare occasion that I give it 3/4
> throttle, it scares me worse than any of the jet planes I flew, so I don't
> think I'm losing enough HP to matter. :-)
>
> I never have check the spark plugs, so I don't yet know what the effect on
> them has been -- I may need to install that new set I bought 4-5 years
> ago. With only about 110,000 miles on 'em, I hope not.
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 7:23 PM Mike Hamm via Gmclist <

>
> > I use high test in my electric car.
> >
> > --
> > 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
 
You can believe the hype if you want and then try to find get exactly what they put in it. Then check what they tell the EPA and you will soon see
that they can not change much. The only EPA registered approved additive is ethanol and again it is not done at the refinery or before transport to
the terminal. There are somewhere around 100 specified products that can be transported via pipeline and every attempt is made to transport the
product in very batches. One batch may leave here and be destined / delivered to multiple terminals along the way. So that batch might end up at 6 or
8 terminals in different provinces and states.

When they change over from one product to another there is a certain amount of loss called "trans mix". This stuff is captured at the terminal and in
most cases returned to a refinery, usually by tank truck, for reprocessing. This delivery scheduling is all set up months in advance and scheduled to
minimize changeover waste. Take a look on Google Earth at one of these terminals. Most have around 4 - 5 tanks and one small one for trans mix. It
really is a complex distribution system and made worse every time some politician shuts down a pipeline for political reasons. The Michigan state and
federal govt has been trying to shut down Enbridge #5 in upper Michigan for years by refusing to allow permits to modernize / replace the water
crossing tunnel up there. If that were to happen Michigan, Ohio, Lower Ontario and Quebec would loose 45% of their crude oil source and crude would
have to be imported from Saudi Arabia via another line to a port on the east coast.

I give you all of this background so you can see some of what goes on in today's oil product distribution. If you were to believe the marketing hype,
how much more would have to be added to the terminal level to accomplish supporting 20 or so brands from each terminal at ethanol mixing time at many,
many terminals all over the country.

If you can, get us a list of the additives added to your specific brands of "Top Tier" and how much of each is added at what stage of the refining and
distribution system. I have put that challenge out several times on other forums over the years and no one has ever come back with this data.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Larry, when I said XJ I was referring to my 99 Cherokee Classic 4.0 I6 SFI. Not a Jaguar😆😆😆
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
Perhaps the best synopsis is just to read the Top Tier Detergent Gasoline article in Wikipedia. Still no BP is listed, which as a publicly perceived
quality brand, especially with their ads stating the family pickup truck will go farther on their Ultimate fuel. Bold statement, is hard to believe.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
> > Newer car computers adjust nearly everything when you use 87 octane instead
> > of 92. Some even adjust variable valve timing and ignition advance and fuel
> > injection pulse width. My turbo charged, intercooled, dual overhead cam,
> > fuel injected, 2.4 liter engine in my PT Dream Cruiser changes nearly
> > everything when regular is used. Really noticeable power reduction,
> > especially on high turbo boost conditions.
> > Jim Hupy
> > Salem, Oregon
>
> That's true, but my 94 Jag ECU doesn't do anything like that. The 95's do though. Fortunately things were factory set with enough latitude that I
> can burn regular with no problem. I don't even have to switch to sport mode to get it to haul ass, so regular is good enough for me.
>
> Larry


--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
> > > Newer car computers adjust nearly everything when you use 87 octane instead
> > > of 92. Some even adjust variable valve timing and ignition advance and fuel
> > > injection pulse width. My turbo charged, intercooled, dual overhead cam,
> > > fuel injected, 2.4 liter engine in my PT Dream Cruiser changes nearly
> > > everything when regular is used. Really noticeable power reduction,
> > > especially on high turbo boost conditions.
> > > Jim Hupy
> > > Salem, Oregon
> >
> > That's true, but my 94 Jag ECU doesn't do anything like that. The 95's do though. Fortunately things were factory set with enough latitude
> > that I can burn regular with no problem. I don't even have to switch to sport mode to get it to haul ass, so regular is good enough for me.
> >
> >
> >
> > Larry

Please read that octane requirement closely. All octane measurement systems are not the same. In the US we use R+M/2 (Research + Motor divided by
2). Most countries use just R (RON) AKI (anti knock index). Stating only RON results in a 4 to 6 higher number for the same fuel. I have seen many
foreign manufactures state RON requirements for their vehicles sold in the US.

Also when the add 10% ethanol it raises the octane by about 2-3 points. So when you take 87 out of the pipeline and add 10 ethanol locally at the
terminal the product delivered is really 89-90, but has less BTUs per gallon. They get by with it because the pump labels (usually yellow)say "87
octane MINIMUM (R+M/2)". Look next time you see one of the yellow pump labels.

I just tried to look up yours and not knowing what engine you have, I am not sure. I found two places that stated 91 and 95 RON. All of the rest
were opinion sites that stated everything from 87 to 98 octane WITHOUT stating whether it was RON or R+M/2 AKI.

It is like comparing the US gallon to the imperial gallon. It is the same word but different sizes.


--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
> Larry, when I said XJ I was referring to my 99 Cherokee Classic 4.0 I6 SFI. Not a Jaguar😆😆😆

Oh you poor guy

Larry
--
Larry - Victoria BC -

1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS
exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
 
> I just tried to look up yours and not knowing what engine you have, I am not sure. I found two places that stated 91 and 95 RON. All of the rest
> were opinion sites that stated everything from 87 to 98 octane WITHOUT stating whether it was RON or R+M/2 AKI.
>
> It is like comparing the US gallon to the imperial gallon. It is the same word but different sizes.

Not certain Ken but I was under the impression and always assumed that the US and Canada use the same octane rating system?

Anyhoo, the engine in my car is a 4-litre ohc straight 6, known as the AJ6. OBD1 only, but with built in code reader. I don't know what the octane
rating of regular Esso gas is but whatever gas pump I'm at I always fill up with the cheapest which will be the lowest grade available. Usually there
are only 3 choices, but IIRC Chevron has a 4th choice, one above premium? Not sure about that - don't go to Chevron stations very often, if ever. I
like their Techron additive though and buy a bottle of that from time to time.
In fact I've got a bottle of Techron on hand right now and thought about giving the coach a drink, but have held off. So far only used it in the Jag.

Larry
--
Larry - Victoria BC -

1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS
exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
 
Gasoline refining and distribution us not like it was 30 years ago almost ALL of the small "Tea Kettle." refineries where shut down and dismantled.
Now there are now a few mega refineries supplying almost everything no matter what brand a retailer shows on the pump. In the past I had 7 refineries
in the area that were my clients. Now locally there are only two big ones left supplying all retail brands. There are also some small refineries
scattered around the country. making aviation fuel, and other products like asphalt, and product for the chemical industry. I am not discussing them.

Texas is home the largest refineries, followed by Louisiana. The two that I know now the most about are near me in the Chicago area (Whiting and
Joliet). They are owned by BP and Exon. I also did do some work for BP in Texas and Wyoming years ago.

Here BP supplies around 2/3 of the road fuel and Exon the remaining 1/3. BP did a major capacity increase of several billion dollars over 6 or 8
years but are unable to get enough crude on to put the increased capacity to use. So they are stuck at around 500,000 barrels per day and Exon around
250,000. Almost all crude comes in by pipeline and almost all refined product leaves by different pipelines destined for small terminals located
Ontario and Quebec and west. I am not sure how far west but it is hundreds of miles. The second transport method method is barge, and the 3rd is
railroad. Crude is sold at the origination site PLUS "Displacement" (transportation costs). Pipeline is the cheapest and rail the most expensive
transport.

"Top Tier" is a marketing gimmick that a group came up with to try and sell ethanol diluted fuel when next to no one wanted it. The only fixed
requirement or guaranteed is the all "TOP Tier" fuel MUST contain 9 to 11% ethanol.

The Brand retailer fills out some paper work, pays a licensing fee, and says that they are complying with their own letter. There is no enforcement
and really the EPA is in charge of E-10 enforcement anyway in non-attainment areas. There is a flat fine to any deliver driver of $25,000 if he is
caught delivering non-ethanol diluted fuel to a station in a non-attainment area. No one from "top Tier is checking it and since it is mixed at many,
many locations (terminals) all over the country, enforcement would be difficult and expensive. They can list other additives but the main additive is
ethanol which is a good fuel system cleaner. Refineries have nothing to do with ethanol additives because they can not transport ethanol by pipeline.
So the "additives" (ethanol) is added or mixed in just prior to or along with the loading the delivery truck.

All ethanol is delivered by truck or rail car to the final terminal. They do not premix the stuff with gas because is attracts moisture. It also
loosens stuff (primarily rust) in pipelines and storage tanks.

That is enough for now. I believe the "Top Tier" is all a marketing scam. I wish I had thought of it. I sure could have collected a lot of license
fees.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
My original post has nothing to do with octane. Top Tier is sold in all octane ratings. My original post has nothing to do with ethanol. All BP Amoco
fuels contain up to 10% ethanol and they are NOT listed on the Top Tier site.. Top Tier as I understand was a deposit control additive package
designed by the Big Three to limit their EFI drivability/ warranty claim exposure. Just wondering why BP announced in 2013 they were now proud to be
Top Tier but now in 2021 they are not listed by Toptiergas themselves. I understand that gas comes from a refined pool and additive packages are
added as a final step per brand request. Is the BP package sub Top Tier, an odd thing for a major brand?
As far as my GMC I buy 87 E10 and set timing so just a touch of light ping when opening secondaries. This gives none during all other driving
conditions and best throttle response/economy long term.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
You are correct. US and Canada both use R+M/2 AKI.

I would have said North American standard but from Mexico south (I believe) they all sell gas on the RON measurement method.

It is shame that over the years have used octane as a gimmick to denote quality. For years they used the terms regular or Ethyl. I remember when
Shell started using TCP as an advertising item. TCP is a lead scavenger. Then they slowly introduced regular, silver, or Gold, and regular and
premium. It is all an attempt to differentiate their brand from the next one down the street.

The US EPA has set so many tight controls on gasoline content now that they are all the same these days.

When they decided to encourage ethanol usage that was a place for the brands to try showing brand differences because it was not mandated everywhere.
The govt EPA standards on detergents had to be allowed to be opened up higher because ethanol is a great detergent. The brands seized on that and
used it for marketing purposes stating they that they were higher than EPA requirements.

Other things the EPA closely regulates is RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure) by setting standards by locality, usually by county, and time of year.

All of this stuff is available on the EPA's web site.

Try finding out what BP's "Invigorate" is and how much is used per gallon.

Sorry, I have not watched California's CARB (California Air Resources Board) and in Canada (I believe it is under Environment Canada CEPA). I do not
really know what they are doing there or have done in the past.

This is more than you ever wanted to know. Right?
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
I'd read somewhere that some retailers are unable to get enough of some additives needed to be considered "Top Tier" at all locations. Since all
grades at all locations need to meet Top Tier requirements to be considered a retailer, brands on the list has been changing recently....

Yes, all "gasoline" comes from the same pipelines and can be considered a commodity....

It is the additive package that differentiates brands of gas. Detergents, anti-corrosives, stabilizers, etc.

As John L said, "Top Tier" is not a "marketing gimmick".. It is a set of requirements for those additives to keep your engine running well over time.
Yes, there is a fee that retailers need to pay Top Tier to be in the program, but if they don't meet the requirements, they can't "buy" their way on
to the list. It's probably the best way to ensure you are fueling your car with quality fuel.

You can geek out on the specifics of Top Tier over on Bob's the Oil Guy....
--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
 
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