Top End Work Question - Native guide needed

Matt Colie

Matt Colie

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2008
11,101
807
113
South East Michigan near DTW
I would appreciate have a native guide's experience here.

Blackstone has told me that I have coolant in my engine's lube oil.
This is most likely to be and intake or head gasket leak. (That is based on my experience. And I'm hoping).
I have planned to take the top off the engine after Elkhart.

Question for those with more experience doing engine work in the coach.

Is this best done while leaving the block (455) in place,
Or is it worthwhile to haul the whole engine out and put it on a stand??

If I take the engine out, it has to come out the top, it is a 23 and I have a good hoist.

Thank you all.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Matt, depending a bit on the concentration of the antifreeze. The presence
of trace amounts is a cause for concern, but not panic. Higher
concentrations are a huge no-no. Head gasket interface is the usual
culprit, and if the engine is still fitted with steel gaskets, then,
usually, an r and r of the heads, pressure check, followed by good
composition gaskets will usually suffice. If there is a high concentration
of antifreeze in the oil, AND IT WAS MY ENGINE, I would pull the engine,
disassemble it to the short block, pull the bearing caps and inspect the
shaft and inserts very carefully. Any doubt as to condition, pull the
crank, mike it, polish the journals if they are etched, and replace all the
bearings. Cam and lifters too. Antifreeze and engine oil is a really poor
cocktail, in my opinion.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> I would appreciate have a native guide's experience here.
>
> Blackstone has told me that I have coolant in my engine's lube oil.
> This is most likely to be and intake or head gasket leak. (That is based
> on my experience. And I'm hoping).
> I have planned to take the top off the engine after Elkhart.
>
> Question for those with more experience doing engine work in the coach.
>
> Is this best done while leaving the block (455) in place,
> Or is it worthwhile to haul the whole engine out and put it on a stand??
>
> If I take the engine out, it has to come out the top, it is a 23 and I
> have a good hoist.
>
> Thank you all.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Matt, removing and reinstalling the intake manifold in the coach is an easy job, other than the weight of the thing. Remove the carb and fashion
yourself a simple handle out of a couple of long bolts and a piece of wood. Screw it in the carb bolt holes and you now have a handle to lift by.
If you want something to help support the weight, lay a piece of 2x2 across the seats and support some of the weight from it. I did not do the 2x2
thing when installing mine.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
I BELIEVE that is is possible to pull the heads without pulling the engine,
simply because many here have done it.

I have done the intake a couple of times, and as KenB says, it's not a
difficult job.

In addition to Jim's comments, I would add that it's not impossible to have
seepage around one of the coolant ports in the intake. That might or might
not be visible when you remove the intake, which, of course, you have to do
before removing the heads in any case.

The brackets on the front of the engine are the worst of the job, in my
view. But I do hate that power-steering-pump Rube Goldberg bracket with a
deep passion. The AC bracket isn't much better.

Rick "good luck" Denney

> I would appreciate have a native guide's experience here.
>
> Blackstone has told me that I have coolant in my engine's lube oil.
> This is most likely to be and intake or head gasket leak. (That is based
> on my experience. And I'm hoping).
> I have planned to take the top off the engine after Elkhart.
>
> Question for those with more experience doing engine work in the coach.
>
> Is this best done while leaving the block (455) in place,
> Or is it worthwhile to haul the whole engine out and put it on a stand??
>
> If I take the engine out, it has to come out the top, it is a 23 and I
> have a good hoist.
>
> Thank you all.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
 
You probably already considered or did this but you might want to do a wet/dry compression test or a leak down.
Good time to have a valve job/seals/surfacing done- but if you have ring issues might as well go for the Full Monty.
Curious what head gasket youd go with havoing been on the design end?
--
76 Glenbrook
 
> You probably already considered or did this but you might want to do a wet/dry compression test or a leak down.
> Good time to have a valve job/seals/surfacing done- but if you have ring issues might as well go for the Full Monty.
> Curious what head gasket youd go with havoing been on the design end?

Chris,

It is not a combustion seal leak. There is no evidence of combustion by products is the coolant. The level of coolant in the reservoir is not going
down that I can establish.

Yes, If I have to get the heads off, I already know what shop I am going to take them to. I am also hoping that neither head is cracked.

I know what gasket I want, if I can get it. That would be the one I used to make when I worked at McCord (was bought by Payne and is now part of
Fel-Pro that is a small part of Federal Mogul). I would get the one I made for the marine application with stainless fire-rings and a graphite body.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Matt,
So, IF you decide to pull the heads, set-up a frame of some kind and use a light duty block and tackle to lift the heads/manifold out and for putting
back in. The last time I did this, I was able to hook on to spots on the heads and manifold that had the heads hanging at the perfect angle so when I
put them back on, just lowered it slowly and with a little push to adjust angle, they set down perfect on the block. No pain...no strain. At 70+ yrs
old, that stuff was just to heavy for me to want to muscle them into place. JWID
--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
 
Matt

Whether you pull the engine or just the top end, if you have access to a cherry picker you can lift it out through the entry door.
Here's Kelvin's photos of his engine R&R.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-r-26amp-3br-engine-work/p10728.html

I would make my decision based on how much regret I anticipated if I didn't pull the engine. ButI get caught up in might-as-wells and that's why I
never get finished!

> I would appreciate have a native guide's experience here.
>
> Blackstone has told me that I have coolant in my engine's lube oil.
> This is most likely to be and intake or head gasket leak. (That is based on my experience. And I'm hoping).
> I have planned to take the top off the engine after Elkhart.
>
> Question for those with more experience doing engine work in the coach.
>
> Is this best done while leaving the block (455) in place,
> Or is it worthwhile to haul the whole engine out and put it on a stand??
>
> If I take the engine out, it has to come out the top, it is a 23 and I have a good hoist.
>
> Thank you all.
>
> Matt

--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
 
Besides the standard felpro head gaskets felpro has high performance head gaskets that has better sealing around the water holes.i believe they were
around$75 each at summit .
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
 
Matt - how many miles on the engine? I see two options, do the heads with it in place, or pull it out and rebuild. Once it's out, the additive
cost/time vs doing it again soon does it for me.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
> Matt - how many miles on the engine? I see two options, do the heads with it in place, or pull it out and rebuild. Once it's out, the additive
> cost/time vs doing it again soon does it for me.
>
> --johnny

Johnny,

If I understand the paper that came with the coach, the engine has been about 70K miles. It still has good oil consumption at about 2K/qt and good
oil pressure. It either of those were on the wane, I would do an overhaul.

Matt

--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Since there are no combustion byproducts I would say this is a PERFECT candidate for Barsleak. If it were me I would drain coolant and install fresh
50/50 and Barsleak tablets immediately. Then drive it to Elkhart and back and send out sample again or put a sharpie mark on the overflow and monitor
cold daily. Usually this would fall into the "it's not my car" category. But this is what I would do if it were my vehicle. I see no point in doing
partial work on an engine that has no ticks, no knocks, good oil management and good power and drivability. I would wait then do a total rebuild when
any of those parameters deteriorate. Logicly, it must be a weep either due to gasket or casting corrosion and at 9PSI I would think the Barsleak would
give 100% sealing.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
Steel gaskets are largely unaffected by ginger root sealants. They rust
away. While barsleak can and does provide some stopleak protection, this is
not one of the times that I would trust it to work. IN MY OPINION. You, pay
your own money, and take your own choices. You have much more experience in
this area than most GMC'ers, particularly with gaskets. I think you already
know what to do. Nuff said from me.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> Since there are no combustion byproducts I would say this is a PERFECT
> candidate for Barsleak. If it were me I would drain coolant and install
> fresh
> 50/50 and Barsleak tablets immediately. Then drive it to Elkhart and back
> and send out sample again or put a sharpie mark on the overflow and monitor
> cold daily. Usually this would fall into the "it's not my car" category.
> But this is what I would do if it were my vehicle. I see no point in doing
> partial work on an engine that has no ticks, no knocks, good oil
> management and good power and drivability. I would wait then do a total
> rebuild when
> any of those parameters deteriorate. Logicly, it must be a weep either due
> to gasket or casting corrosion and at 9PSI I would think the Barsleak would
> give 100% sealing.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
If I were going to drive it several hundered miles with a known weep I would want the Barsleak in the system. If nothing else it will be a good test
run for consumption. They also make a shelf full of HD products including the aluminum particle type and other "head gasket in a can" miracle cures.
But I always start with the simple benign Cadillac tabs-- hey GM insisted Northstars got them so I don't think they will cause problems when used as
directed with fresh coolant.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
John, Barsleak won't hurt anything, but, antifreeze in the oil sure will. I
subscribe to the "better safe than sorry" policy, particularly with someone
else's equipment. That's why I make my position the way I do.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

If I were going to drive it several hundered miles with a known weep I
would want the Barsleak in the system. If nothing else it will be a good
test
run for consumption. They also make a shelf full of HD products including
the aluminum particle type and other "head gasket in a can" miracle cures.
But I always start with the simple benign Cadillac tabs-- hey GM insisted
Northstars got them so I don't think they will cause problems when used as
directed with fresh coolant.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

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> If I were going to drive it several hundered miles with a known weep I would want the Barsleak in the system. If nothing else it will be a good
> test run for consumption. They also make a shelf full of HD products including the aluminum particle type and other "head gasket in a can" miracle
> cures. But I always start with the simple benign Cadillac tabs-- hey GM insisted Northstars got them so I don't think they will cause problems when
> used as directed with fresh coolant.

I tried Barsleaks and oil change back and I am still getting the same answer.
I really don't want to loose a good engine by being foolish.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Not much choice if that's where you are Matt. Heads got to come off, only way to be sure and not take a chance on taking out the whole shebang.
JMHO, Hal
Matt Colie wrote on
Wed, 26 July 2017 10:24

> > If I were going to drive it several hundered miles with a known weep I would want the Barsleak in the system. If nothing else it will be a
> > good test run for consumption. They also make a shelf full of HD products including the aluminum particle type and other "head gasket in a can"
> > miracle cures. But I always start with the simple benign Cadillac tabs-- hey GM insisted Northstars got them so I don't think they will cause
> > problems when used as directed with fresh coolant.
>
> I tried Barsleaks and oil change back and I am still getting the same answer.
> I really don't want to loose a good engine by being foolish.
>
> Matt

--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1975 Eleganza II, 101230

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
 
With 70 thousand miles on the engine and the engine mostly apart with the heads removed . As easy as it is with a 23 footer I would put the shop crane
thru the doorway and pull the motor . I would be very curious as to the condition of number 7&8 rod bearings. If all is well put it back together with
new gaskets and seals . I would sleep better knowing all was well with out second guessing. This is what I did with my 26 footer when it needed
cylinder head work when I first bought it. Smart move on my part 7&8 rod bearings were well worn and I dodged a bullet.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
 
Matt,

How old is your radiator? I had my oil tested at a lab in Knoxville (same one Chuck B uses) and I too had a trace of antifreeze in the oil with a
recommendation to repair or replace the radiator. I opted to install a remote oil cooler and that took care of my problem. I may have just been
lucky on that one.

Jerry
--
Jerry Sitzlar..... 77 Eleganza II, Twin bed, dry bath......
Lenoir City, TN
 
Been there, done that Matt. I feel your pain. When we first got our 77, Blackstone said we had coolant in the oil. I did the stop leak and oil
change thing and made another trip before a retest. Blackstone again said there was coolant in the oil and metals were up a bit. I had the oil
tested by Chuck's guy who said, "Remove this engine from service, NOW!". I did and chose to pull it (out the bottom). Had a couple of bearings that
were nearly to the copper and one that had a big gouge through it. My engine guy, John Beavers in Americus Ga, took one glance at my head and spotted
the blown head gasket between 1-3. The head gasket came apart when I lifted the head but he could see the 'track' on the head.

Because I caught it early we were able to do an 'overhaul' instead of a rebuild. The crank was within factory specs so it was polished. Cleaned up
and new crosshatch on the block, did the heads, and back together with new gaskets. John ordered head gaskets from Mondello and block off plates from
Paterson.

Photos here: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6382-overhauling-the-403.html

There is a long thread on the site somewhere.
--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama

Had 5 over the years. Still have the first a 76 that will be rebodied into an art deco car hauler.

http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/

'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
 
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