tire balance

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hemogoblin

New member
Jul 9, 1998
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Need some info Anybody know the exact size of the OEM mufflers ? I'm
planning to replace current glasspaks with Flowmasters or Hemi-style.I plan
on using new stock engine pipes, and Y pipe. I need to know diameter as
well. Additionally I met a GMCer at Cinnebar who is running Alcoas. He
descibed a truckers method of balancing utilizing powder in tires said it
works great. I have lost original balance tabs on my rear drums on one side,
drums are like new just outside rust eating weld. Seems as if this balance
method would work better than on vehicle spin balance I would have to resort
to. Anybody have any knowledge??
thanks in advance...
Mark
'77 Palm Beach
 
I have not heard of sand in the tires but I do understand the theory, the
Centramatics work in the same way. If you try it, control the test where
you will be able to track any successes, I for one would be interested in
the outcome.

As far as the weights on the drum, past experiance make me recomend
replacing that drum as well as others with similar problems. Balance of
the drum is obviously critical to proper tire balance and a rusted out of
balance drum would cause problems.

Cinnabar (1-900-720-2227) & Golby (1-800-275-1462) both offer new drums.

Jim Bounds www.gmccoop.com
- --------------------------------------------

>Need some info Anybody know the exact size of the OEM mufflers ? I'm
>planning to replace current glasspaks with Flowmasters or Hemi-style.I plan
>on using new stock engine pipes, and Y pipe. I need to know diameter as
>well. Additionally I met a GMCer at Cinnebar who is running Alcoas. He
>descibed a truckers method of balancing utilizing powder in tires said it
>works great. I have lost original balance tabs on my rear drums on one side,
>drums are like new just outside rust eating weld. Seems as if this balance
>method would work better than on vehicle spin balance I would have to resort
>to. Anybody have any knowledge??
>thanks in advance...
>Mark
>'77 Palm Beach
>
>
>
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Bounds
To: gmcmotorhome
Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: GMC: tire balance

>Need some info Anybody know the exact size of the OEM mufflers ? I'm
>>planning to replace current glasspaks with Flowmasters or Hemi-style.I
plan
>>on using new stock engine pipes, and Y pipe. I need to know diameter as
>>well. ...
>>Mark
>>'77 Palm Beach
>>
>>
>>
Call Juanita at FlowMaster 1(800)544-4784; She knows; I would suggest that
you locate a local muffler installer that has an RV lift and who will
install others products.
BTW; Jardine has the complete package, all ready to bolt up, headers etc.
I used FlowMaster, with stock manifolds, 2-1/2" down pipes to FlowMaster
Mufflers to performance "Y" then out of "Y" with 3" two 90s and down
through frame out factory path with 3".
I would suggest using their mandral 3" 90 deg. ells, your installer should
be able to modify them for a perfect fit.
Very happy with the results.
JRBiava
 
Balancers! I for one am interested in this balancing concept. I'm a
consulting engineer specializing in alignment, balancing and vibration.
Normally I believe in component balancing or stack balancing. Balance the
drum then the tire/wheel combo. Monitoring in situ balance running down the
road isn't that hard. I mount accelerometers near the source and run cable
back to the cockpit where I can monitor via real time analyzer and/or record
all data. Good balance is easy to achieve and quality balance last a long
time. Is it me? or do I fail to see the need for continued updated balance
while in motion. A watch that doesn't run is right twice a day. Does that
school of thought apply here? Someone shine a light on me. Thanks, Sam
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Bounds
To: gmcmotorhome
Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: GMC: tire balance

>I have not heard of sand in the tires but I do understand the theory, the
>Centramatics work in the same way. If you try it, control the test where
>you will be able to track any successes, I for one would be interested in
>the outcome.
>
>As far as the weights on the drum, past experiance make me recomend
>replacing that drum as well as others with similar problems. Balance of
>the drum is obviously critical to proper tire balance and a rusted out of
>balance drum would cause problems.
>
>Cinnabar (1-900-720-2227) & Golby (1-800-275-1462) both offer new drums.
>
>Jim Bounds www.gmccoop.com
>--------------------------------------------

>>Need some info Anybody know the exact size of the OEM mufflers ? I'm
>>planning to replace current glasspaks with Flowmasters or Hemi-style.I
plan
>>on using new stock engine pipes, and Y pipe. I need to know diameter as
>>well. Additionally I met a GMCer at Cinnebar who is running Alcoas. He
>>descibed a truckers method of balancing utilizing powder in tires said it
>>works great. I have lost original balance tabs on my rear drums on one
side,
>>drums are like new just outside rust eating weld. Seems as if this balance
>>method would work better than on vehicle spin balance I would have to
resort
>>to. Anybody have any knowledge??
>>thanks in advance...
>>Mark
>>'77 Palm Beach
>>
>>
>>
 
BALANCE, It's me again. I'll reiterate, balancing is easy. Proper equipment
and expertise in personnel is another story. Page 2; I like smooth tires. I
used to like to drive 150+ mph too but have gotten older. This year I did a
R&D project for automated balancers for the automotive industry in MI. There
is a definite lacking in machines and expertise. Fortunately suspensions
systems are very forgiving. A few years back a buddy at the Jaguar place in
Atl, GA ask me to do some analytical work on a drive train (I'll inject - I
was at Oak Ridge) and we side tracked to tire balancers. As far as I know a
good one doesn't exist. We were on one of the latest & greatest and would
balance a tire to perfection: glitch, we would then rotate the tire 30 or 45
or 90 degrees - you guessed it, it was never in balance again. So a fly was
stuck in the make-up cream. The automotive system only requires a G-16 grade
(I'm pretty sure) and I balance high speed machines to G-1. There isn't a
trail & error method unless you're using 40 yr old techniques. If a drum
needs balancing, balance it even if you're balancing the tires on the car
have everything else balanced first. Don't develop a system balance and end
up with a lot of weights on the wheel and create a nightmare. I'd like to
build a machine with let's say Bill Elliott's name on it. One more point;
generally balance is performed at or around 300-500 RPM which is slow speed
very slow and sometimes when looking at the limitations of the
instrumentation being used one can find that the resolution and phase
relationship to the frequency spectrum is such that it required blind luck
to even get 'balance' acceptance on the so called balancers. My two cents
worth. Sam Pickens
- -----Original Message-----
From: RickStapls
To: gmcmotorhome
Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: tire balance

>
>> Balancers! I for one am interested in this balancing concept. I'm a
>> consulting engineer specializing in alignment, balancing and vibration.
>> Normally I believe in component balancing or stack balancing. Balance
the
>> drum then the tire/wheel combo. Monitoring in situ balance running down
the
>> road isn't that hard. I mount accelerometers near the source and run
cable
>> back to the cockpit where I can monitor via real time analyzer and/or
>record
>> all data. Good balance is easy to achieve and quality balance last a
long
>> time. Is it me? or do I fail to see the need for continued updated
balance
>> while in motion. A watch that doesn't run is right twice a day. Does
that
>> school of thought apply here? Someone shine a light on me. Thanks, Sam
>> ----
>
>Sam,
> I think the interest in on-the-road balancers (either attached to the
rim
>or injected into the tire ) is due to the difficulty in getting our
>tires/wheels balanced properly off the coach. As most of you know, very
few
>dynamic ( aka "high-speed", "computerized" etc ) balancers can properly
>balance the extreme offset wheels from our GMCs, and even fewer operators
of
>these machines can do the job properly. Even if successful, off-coach
>balancing doesn't compensate for out-of-balance discs, hub, and drums (the
>latter a common GMC problem due to rusted-off drum weights).
>
> In theory an on-vehicle (accelerometer cum strobe light eg Alemite, or
>clamp-to-rim moveable weight device eg Hunter IIRC) balancer should work
OK,
>especially on the rears, but these old spin'em up balancers are rare these
>days. They were somewhat dangerous to use (nothing like a clamp-on
balancer
>head resembling a 5 lb wheel cover going flying across the shop at 60 mph
to
>wake up the early morning shift!), much more labor intensive, and
occasionally
>harmful to the vehicle being balanced, especially on front-wheel-drive
>vehicles such as ours. (Note to anyone trying this: DO NOT jack up one
front
>wheel, put her in gear, and accelerate to 60 mph indicated to balance or
check
>balance. Due to the differential action, the spinning wheel will be doing
120
>mph, and the differential gears will be severely damaged, even to the point
of
>"disassembling the machine" as they say in the nuclear business.)
>
> Your suggestion to drive down the road with accelerometers installed is
>intriguing, but subsequently locating the weights would be time-consuming
>trial and error wouldn't it? And I know of no tire shop or garage with
access
>to such equipment.
>
> Apparently truckers have suffered similarly, and so injectable (fine
beads
>or powder) balancing compounds are quite popular. The biggest weakness is
>that the stuff can get caught in the tire valve or bead, causing slow
leaks.
>Careful intallation (preferably after seating the beads) prevents rim
leaks,
>and special filtered tire valves are available. Quality metal valve caps
>should be used too.
>
> Now for the bottom line: how do they work? I just had 6 new tires
>installed on my GMC, just returned from a few hundred miles of highway
>driving. I can say that the injectable balancing compound works better
than
>the last 3 off-coach balancing jobs I had done. They seem to get
"confused"
>by severely rough pavement (I 76, Denver to Nebraska, you locals know what
I
>mean), but that may be due to some lingering elusive looseness in my front
>end.
>
> Basically, they work for me.
>
>Rick Staples
>'75 Eleganza
>
 
Where can a person purchase the 'injectable (fine beads
>or powder) balancing compounds'??

>
>> Balancers! I for one am interested in this balancing concept. I'm a
>> consulting engineer specializing in alignment, balancing and vibration.
>
> Apparently truckers have suffered similarly, and so injectable (fine beads
>or powder) balancing compounds are quite popular. The biggest weakness is
>that the stuff can get caught in the tire valve or bead, causing slow leaks.
>Careful intallation (preferably after seating the beads) prevents rim leaks,
>and special filtered tire valves are available. Quality metal valve caps
>should be used too.
>
> Now for the bottom line: how do they work? I just had 6 new tires
>installed on my GMC, just returned from a few hundred miles of highway
>driving. I can say that the injectable balancing compound works better than
>the last 3 off-coach balancing jobs I had done. They seem to get "confused"
>by severely rough pavement (I 76, Denver to Nebraska, you locals know what I
>mean), but that may be due to some lingering elusive looseness in my front
>end.
>
> Basically, they work for me.
>
>Rick Staples
>'75 Eleganza
>
>
>

____/ / ____/ ____/ __ /
/ / / / / /
/ / ___ / / / /
/ / / / / /
____/ _/ ____/ ____/ _____/ Systems, INC.

Thom Hole
Cisco Systems Inc.
Federal Inside Sales Manager
ph: (919) 472-3975
fx: (408) 525-0232
800-888-8187 x23975
 
>
> ... the limitations of the
> instrumentation being used one can find that the resolution and phase
> relationship to the frequency spectrum....

Thanks Sam for Your input on Balancing. Your technical knowledge and
command of the english language is very impressive, but I haven't a
clue what You said.

I'm trying to determine what is the best course of action for My '73.
I just heard of the beads or powder and want to know more about that.
Have Fun,
Tim Timothy
 
I found a couple of articles dealing with tire balancing by searching the
net for "tire balance" through www.snap.com. The two best articles deal with
the different truck whel balancing methods, and while they don't quite spell
out the "best" method, they do shed some light on the subject. I would
encourage anyone interested to check them out.

One site is www.ccjmagazine.com/balance.htm.
The other is www.aftmkt.com/whatsnew/meml1997.dgw/340ea15fdacd2be1.

(My hand got tired typing that address!)

>From what I see so far, I'd try out the Centramatics or Balance Masters.
 
Tim,
Gottum beads, gottum banket, where's the squawwwl and what kind of power!
Flint lock? Here we go; component balancing - each component (gear, rotor,
etc.) is balanced as a seperate item. The replacement or interchangable item
is the wheel/tire combo. Even a tire can be taken off and replaced. So when
the same tire is repaired and replaced it should be matched marked before
it's removed and refitted on the wheel in the same location - then with the
permanent rotating system in balance - the added externally balance
components will operate smoothly.

The resolution of the instrumentation should be: transducer, 0.01 or better
with a frequency range down to 2 Hz. To compound the problem; two plane
balance in an automated system means two transducers and they have to be
phased matched as phase is a means of identifying location so naturally if
the transducers aren't matched phase correlation doen't happen. With one key
phasor and two transducers one must be within three degrees of accuracy to
have a valid mathematically calculation. Garbage in = garbage out: it's that
simple. It doesn't take a village, just one qualified caring person. All
this and no cigars. Better yet, it's free. Hope to see everyone in NC; or
does that stand for Non-Com mental?
- -----Original Message-----
From: LARRY DTIMOTHY
To: gmcmotorhome
Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: tire balance

>>
>> ... the limitations of the
>> instrumentation being used one can find that the resolution and phase
>> relationship to the frequency spectrum....
>
>Thanks Sam for Your input on Balancing. Your technical knowledge and
>command of the english language is very impressive, but I haven't a
>clue what You said.
>
>I'm trying to determine what is the best course of action for My '73.
>I just heard of the beads or powder and want to know more about that.
>Have Fun,
>Tim Timothy
 
When considering automotive suspension one must realize the flexibility in
the system. What's considered acceptable to 'feel' isn't really very good.
One must get away from 'art' and into 'science'. Going in an out of balance
all the time isn't good; staying in balance all the time is good. That isn't
an illusion. Balance weights on a wheel don't necessarily look good but can
feel good. I can name at least one thing that doesn't look all that good but
feel great; hello! Maw Pickens' little boy Sammy wrote that. There isn't a
substitute for proper balance and once achieved stays that way for a long
time. I could write a book on this subject; hey, wait a minute, I have and
computer programs to make those calculations for you. Turn up the radio and
the problem goes away! This, a very simple subject, gets very complitated.
Hope to be in NC; I can talk about it and love to. The simple stuff is what
gets so tough and there's different schools of thought, but, balancing a
turbine so a penny can stand on end is good enough for some?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Thom Hole
To: gmcmotorhome
Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: tire balance

>Where can a person purchase the 'injectable (fine beads
>>or powder) balancing compounds'??
>

>>
>>> Balancers! I for one am interested in this balancing concept. I'm a
>>> consulting engineer specializing in alignment, balancing and
vibration.
>>
>> Apparently truckers have suffered similarly, and so injectable (fine
beads
>>or powder) balancing compounds are quite popular. The biggest weakness is
>>that the stuff can get caught in the tire valve or bead, causing slow
leaks.
>>Careful intallation (preferably after seating the beads) prevents rim
leaks,
>>and special filtered tire valves are available. Quality metal valve caps
>>should be used too.
>>
>> Now for the bottom line: how do they work? I just had 6 new tires
>>installed on my GMC, just returned from a few hundred miles of highway
>>driving. I can say that the injectable balancing compound works better
than
>>the last 3 off-coach balancing jobs I had done. They seem to get
"confused"
>>by severely rough pavement (I 76, Denver to Nebraska, you locals know what
I
>>mean), but that may be due to some lingering elusive looseness in my front
>>end.
>>
>> Basically, they work for me.
>>
>>Rick Staples
>>'75 Eleganza
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ____/ / ____/ ____/ __ /
> / / / / / /
> / / ___ / / / /
> / / / / / /
> ____/ _/ ____/ ____/ _____/ Systems, INC.
>
>
>
>Thom Hole
>Cisco Systems Inc.
>Federal Inside Sales Manager
>ph: (919) 472-3975
>fx: (408) 525-0232
>800-888-8187 x23975
>
 
Just sent out four E-mails got five back, four of my own -- I need help!
Hey, I'm replying to my own.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Samuel Pickens
To: gmcmotorhome
Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: tire balance

>Tim,
>Gottum beads, gottum banket, where's the squawwwl and what kind of power!
>Flint lock? Here we go; component balancing - each component (gear, rotor,
>etc.) is balanced as a seperate item. The replacement or interchangable
item
>is the wheel/tire combo. Even a tire can be taken off and replaced. So when
>the same tire is repaired and replaced it should be matched marked before
>it's removed and refitted on the wheel in the same location - then with the
>permanent rotating system in balance - the added externally balance
>components will operate smoothly.
>
>The resolution of the instrumentation should be: transducer, 0.01 or better
>with a frequency range down to 2 Hz. To compound the problem; two plane
>balance in an automated system means two transducers and they have to be
>phased matched as phase is a means of identifying location so naturally if
>the transducers aren't matched phase correlation doen't happen. With one
key
>phasor and two transducers one must be within three degrees of accuracy to
>have a valid mathematically calculation. Garbage in = garbage out: it's
that
>simple. It doesn't take a village, just one qualified caring person. All
>this and no cigars. Better yet, it's free. Hope to see everyone in NC; or
>does that stand for Non-Com mental?
>-----Original Message-----
>From: LARRY DTIMOTHY
>To: gmcmotorhome
>Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 1:44 PM
>Subject: Re: GMC: tire balance
>
>

>>>
>>> ... the limitations of the
>>> instrumentation being used one can find that the resolution and phase
>>> relationship to the frequency spectrum....
>>
>>Thanks Sam for Your input on Balancing. Your technical knowledge and
>>command of the english language is very impressive, but I haven't a
>>clue what You said.
>>
>>I'm trying to determine what is the best course of action for My '73.
>>I just heard of the beads or powder and want to know more about that.
>>Have Fun,
>>Tim Timothy
>
 
I didn't have much luck w/ the tire balance powered either, but then I
later found I had a bent front drive shaft. Alex Serum sold me a used on=
e
- - it was bent too. Fortunately he made it good. For those using KYB
shocks - do they limit the suspension like a Bilstien? Take it from one
who ended up buying a new (and expensive) front drive shaft - something h=
as
to stop the front end before it bends something.
Steve
'74 glacier
 
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