Tiny leak on the engine water pump. Suggestions?

Did you manage to get a part number for the GMB pump with roller bearing?

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

>
> I spent about 4 hours on the phone with every department in the Cardone menu.. no answers to my questions what so ever, except that they were no
> longer in production. Very secretive company. They couldn't even tell me who did their ordering. That was odd.
> But finally got a hold of a tech that said the best they could do is to send them a core and they would rebuild it. Their rebuilders are in Harlingen
> Texas, the rebuilders also do the remanufactured water pumps for Napa.
> But Carl S mentioned that he was using a GMB water pump. So I did some research on GMB. They are a large conglomeration out of Japan. their
> production facilities are in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and China. Seems to be a very respected corporation that is known for their bearings. And they also
> have the correct bearing configuration (rollers and ball bearings). And they are all new castings!!
> So my guess is that the water pump nowadays is like the fan clutch. Seems like Hayden makes all the fan clutches, and rebranded by different brands.
> So I'm guessing GMB makes all the NEW water pumps, and rebranded by others, including Napa..
> What a PITA......
> Scott.
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
> installed MSD Atomic EFI
> Houston, Texas
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
GMB has 3 different types of water pumps for the 455-403 engines.

1st- part number is 130-1260. **This is Not for our motorhomes** it is for non air conditioned motors.. has a 6 blade impeller.

2nd- part number is 130-1260P. This is the hi-performance model. For air conditioned engines. Cast iron body, 8 blade impeller.

3rd- part number is. 130-1260AL. This is the same as the hi-performance model, but has the aluminum body. Mostly used in race applications where
weight would be an issue.
GMB 130-1260P High Performance Series Water Pump with Gasket https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000JYFL6K/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_odpHDb26VJKB0
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
 
Les,
Before I can say a definite, let me check with a tech there. I will have a answer for you on this Monday.
But in the mean time, I'm going to guess and say yes.
Scott.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
 
Ok....
This is straight from the source...The Assistant Manager, Product Management, GMB North America..

*Water Pumps*
130-1260: regular water pump, made in China, regular flow rate, standard quality bearings.
130-1260p: Hi-Performance water pump, made in Japan, higher flow rate, higher quality bearings.
130-1260AL: Aluminum housing, made in Japan, regular flow rate, standard quality bearings.

"For the above water pumps, they are all with roller bearing and ball bearing combination. But with different quality on the bearings."

I opted to go with the 130-1260 P hi performance pump. I just need to make sure I have the spring in the radiator hose, and that I don't over tension
the fan belts. I think that's how I sent the current pump to it's grave....
Scott.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
 
Scott,
Thanks for taking the time to sort this out. Someone now needs to catalog this info so that it is easily found by anyone who cares.

Not all replacement parts are suitable or durable enough for our application. Having access to the detailed info so we can share it with the inexperienced is important.

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

>
> Ok....
> This is straight from the source...The Assistant Manager, Product Management, GMB North America..
>
> *Water Pumps*
> 130-1260: regular water pump, made in China, regular flow rate, standard quality bearings.
> 130-1260p: Hi-Performance water pump, made in Japan, higher flow rate, higher quality bearings.
> 130-1260AL: Aluminum housing, made in Japan, regular flow rate, standard quality bearings.
>
> "For the above water pumps, they are all with roller bearing and ball bearing combination. But with different quality on the bearings."
>
> I opted to go with the 130-1260 P hi performance pump. I just need to make sure I have the spring in the radiator hose, and that I don't over tension
> the fan belts. I think that's how I sent the current pump to it's grave....
> Scott.
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
> installed MSD Atomic EFI
> Houston, Texas
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Les,
I still need to get back with the project manager with GMB. He might have given me false info for the 130-1260AL, the aluminum pump. My questions are
about the flow. The aluminum pump has the same number of impellers as the hi performance pump. So that would translate to hi flow. He told me that the
aluminum pump was standard flow. I think what he meant to say was "standard rotation". Regular flow rate would be with 1 less impeller blade.....
And 2nd question will be standard quality bearings on the aluminum water pump. Since it appears to be the hi flow rate impeller, I would think they
would have heavier duty bearings.. and it's also the most expensive of all their pumps..
And once again, all their pumps are NEW....
As far as reliable goes??? Who knows........
I think Carl S has been running his GMB for a couple of years with no complaints, but he is a better mechanic that I am!!!

Scott.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
 
Sir, Didn't you say Cardone built the pimps for NAPA? Didn't you say NAPA rebuilt pumps # ended with a H? Does that mean they have the roller
bearing instead of ball bearing? I think I would consider any pump impeller with the roller bearing.

> Les,
> I still need to get back with the project manager with GMB. He might have given me false info for the 130-1260AL, the aluminum pump. My questions
> are about the flow. The aluminum pump has the same number of impellers as the hi performance pump. So that would translate to hi flow. He told me
> that the aluminum pump was standard flow. I think what he meant to say was "standard rotation". Regular flow rate would be with 1 less impeller
> blade.....
> And 2nd question will be standard quality bearings on the aluminum water pump. Since it appears to be the hi flow rate impeller, I would think
> they would have heavier duty bearings.. and it's also the most expensive of all their pumps..
> And once again, all their pumps are NEW....
> As far as reliable goes??? Who knows........
> I think Carl S has been running his GMB for a couple of years with no complaints, but he is a better mechanic that I am!!!
>
> Scott.

--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
 
OK people. I looked up the 21118H pump and Pep Boys shows it in stock, BUT it is not available online. It is only available in stores. So I called
two Pep Boys stores in the Chicago suburbs (we do not have any here) and asked for that specific number. Both claimed they had it in stock. Then I
asked that they pull the item from the shelf and read the number off of the box. Both said the number agrees with what I asked for with the H suffix.
I was going to stop by one of the stores tomorrow when I made one of rare forays into that country but plans changed and I am headed 110 miles the
other direction.

So if you are near a Pep Boys, stop by and ask for this pump by part number. Maybe you will get lucky.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Maybe something lost in translation. Napa uses the same rebuilders that Cardone uses. I don't know the name of the rebuilders, but they are in south
Texas close to Harlingen.. Cardone does NOT make any more new pumps.... Cardone says the quality control is very high... But what else would they
say?? They make a crappy pizza? Cardone is a very hard corporation to get any correct info out of.....
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
 
Cardone Industries, based out of Pennsylvania (I believe it's in Philly), is the largest independently owned rebuilder of automotive parts in the
world. It has two sections that I know of. A1 Cardone which is all of the rebuilt stuff and Carson Select which is all of the new manufacture stuff.

All most all of the retailers of rebuilt automotive parts in the US and Canada, including NAPA, Rock Auto, AZ, Oreilies, Advanced, etc, get their
rebuilt products from Cardone. So as far as rebuilt products goes it is almost all the same no matter whose name is on the box.

A1 Cardone does have at least one rebuild site Matamors Mexico directly across the river from Brownsville, TX a site of a Cardone facility and not far
south of their Harlingen,TX facility. I am not sure what gets rebuilt in each of the three facilities.
There is also a factory or rebuild facility in Pennsylvania.

Cardone Select is a part of the company that develops new products and either makes or contracts others to make them for them. The pump we wanted was
a Cardone Select product and was made in I do not know where.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
FWIW, I'm leery of those stamped steel impellers in high load applications.... I know in the Mazda world, on cars that see any track or heavy use,
those stamped impellers (such as those used on the GMB pump) have been known to cause cooling issues... It's recommended to stick with cast impellers
(which are getting harder to find) in those applications. But it's also possible that the stamped impellers causing issue, may have just had too low
a blade count....

I'm running the Flow Kooler pump (which incidentally, uses a GMB aluminum casting with Flow Kooler's impeller) and it seems to be working fine... But
it was not inexpensive. However, I live in Texas and sometimes tow a jeep, so I wanted to make sure lack of water flow was not going to cause me any
issue....

If I were to go with the GMB, I would definitely go with one of the ones with the higher blade count.

Here is the GMB pump, for what it's worth:

https://www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/products/1775-1971-1990-buick-cadillac-chevy-gm-olds-pontiac-6-tall-water-pump
--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
 
Definitely a option. When I pull off the TuffStuff water pump I'll be curious to see what style of impeller it has.
Scott.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
 
Back when Leigh Harrison was developing a reverse flow waterpump for the
Olds, to go with his serpentine belt mod, a prototype failed on me -- the
stamped impeller came apart and jammed the pump. Leigh referred me to the
chief engineer for one of the largest water pump manufacturers, who was
helping him. It turned out that the shaft was not perpendicular to the
housing placing asymmetrical forces on the impeller. But during the
conversation I brought up the cast impellers. His reply was to the effect
that "only those Arabs filling their radiators from muddy desert rivers
need cast impellers". He had lots to say in favor of the stamped impellers
too. That was the only similar failure I've ever had. I DO, however,
think that the flat plate that FlowKool rivets to the vanes probably does
add considerable strength to the impeller.

Ken H.

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 3:22 AM Scott Nutter via Gmclist <

> Definitely a option. When I pull off the TuffStuff water pump I'll be
> curious to see what style of impeller it has.
> Scott.
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final
> drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
> installed MSD Atomic EFI
> Houston, Texas
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
In regard to the elusive Cardone Select "H" pump, Ken wrote "The pump we wanted was a Cardone Select product and was made in I do not know where."

Just went out to the barn and retrieved my Cardone Select "H" pump I got from Rock Auto last year. (After a several month wait. They no longer say
it's available.) As I had recalled, it was made in China, beautiful casting and machine work, six (6!) bladed stamped impeller (but quite large
diameter with a full face plate on it). I posted diameter in a previous discussion IIRC. Returned the pump to its hidden secure location until it's
needed. ;)

The fact they were made in China may relate to their discontinuance, with all the new tariffs raising the cost significantly. I fear we will see more
parts becoming unavailable or expensive over the next year and a half, as the Trade & Ego wars rage on.

My .02.
Rick Staples


--
Rick Staples, '75 Eleganza, Johnstown, CO

"Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the Wise to the Wise, and all paths may run ill." -Tolkien
 
I have no problem paying a premium for a part made here. As long it's the same quality that we we used to produce. But those days might be gone also..
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
 
Scott - that made me laugh!

I never want to go back to the “good old days” when I’d routinely swap out starters, alternators, water pumps, etc. Quality parts made in the U.S.A. were not on the build list for any car I bought back when.

I’m a believer that high quality is a management decision, not a regional one. The stuff DELCO built for NASA was likely second to none. The alternator on my ’78 Caprice, not so delicious… When management decides that quality engineering is very important then it can be built in many places. Nobody complains about the build quality of an iPhone (made in China.) I love our Tesla, built right here in Fremont!

Our coaches were built to a very high standard in a time when GM made some real trash. I’m sorry to be on this soapbox, but your note made me chuckle and think with great reminiscence of a time that only existed in my imagination.

Back to your regularly scheduled GMC content!

Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, CA
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Distributor

>
> I have no problem paying a premium for a part made here. As long it's the same quality that we we used to produce. But those days might be gone also..
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
> installed MSD Atomic EFI
> Houston, Texas
 
Larry,
Thank you for your insight, I guess we have just had different experiences with American made parts.
But I WILL continue to go out of my way to buy North American produced parts, hopefully with North American produced innards..
Just who I am.....
Scott.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
 
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