Timing controls

claude brousson

New member
Jan 20, 1999
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Emmery and others-

For what it's worth, here is what I have. A friend of mine made me a
knock sensor which has included a LED light. I cut a narrow slit ( maybe
3/16"x3/4") on the left side of the dash to accomodate the LEDS behind
where it is easily viewed but really doesn't show, unless the LEDS come
on. I have also the MSD timing control which is mounted on the left by
the window in a position which is very easy to reach with my hand
/and/or even rest my hand on the control if I wish.

Originally I had this set at a mid point so I could advance about 7
degrees or retard 8 degrees at my choice by turning the dial. If the
LEDS began to light up I could retard it a bit. I used this kind of a
setup as I wanted to have control myself of retarding it rather than
leaving it to an automatic device which may be cutting in more than I
wanted, or knew about, and even retarding it too much.

How has it all worked out? Well initially, it seemed to work fine. Only
irritant is, if one is travelling at high speed -say over 65- the Leds
will start to light up a bit. I think I have them set a little too
sensitively and I am presuming at that speed the knock sensor is picking
up engine noise. Maybe there is some wisdom on the Net on this. At least
that is what I hope is what's happening. I have tried mounting the knock
sensor in several positions and it doesn't seem to make much difference
where it is mounted. I finally settled for the extreme left rear head
hole. I had tried a front right spot. I could turn down the sensitivity
but prefer to keep it on the lighter side. Maybe it helps me to keep the
speed down a little too as when the Leds come on at hight speed I'm not
sure if it is knocking or just engine hash!

As for the MSD- it worked fine until recently, but then quit, so sent it
back and even though, way beyond the guarranty, they said it was
defective and so fixed it for free. I am now however setting it with the
dial at maximum(15), so the device is locked out.Anti clockwise turning
of the dial gradually retards the dist. The disadvantage of this is I
have lost the ability to easily advance the timing as I drive from the
drivers seat.

When talking to MSD I tried to find out how they were able to affect the
timing by just tapping into the dist. wires ahead of the cap.
Essentially they would't tell me, and I guess that is their secret. I
made the change in not having the control modulating the timing on a
constant basis, as I began to wonder- what if it breaks down again or
intermitently stops working- it may take me a while before I realize it.
So the current method locks it out all the time except when I am
retarding it manually with the dial. MSD sugest either way as
appropriate.

One thing I try to keep in mind- it is nice to sometimes add more
"things" to our vehicles, but what it does is add more things to go
wrong and to start worrying about. ( Take Note Arch!!).So I try to be
pretty careful what I add at this point. I've got enough other stuff to
worry about. Would I do this mod again? Yes, likely yes. Would I choose
the EKE one? Or would one be better off with e Jacobs one? Hard to say
as I have never had either one. Perhaps like with most things - there
are usually good parts to a thing and also some not so good.It is neat
that we get to hear from each other and learn what others experiences
are and so can then be better informed as to what might work for our own
situation.

Claude in Victoria,having fun, where its not too hot, not water
shortage, you can water your lawn, no fires, and where all the smart
tourists are!!! Wonder if the tourist bureau would give me a job?
 
Tom-
To answer your question re the MSD timing control, it is Part # 8682
and put out by Autotronic Controls of Texas. I purchased it several
years ago so there may be a newer number.

It consists of the black control box which I mounted just behind the
drivers seat. and a small dial control I mounted at an comfortable angle
in the flat area on the left side panel. It hooks in to the brown ,pink
and black wires coming out of the dist. going to the dist cap. What is
rather mysterious to me is how they are able to take control of the
advance and retard electronics of these wires without cutting the wires.
One only attaches their wires to them. So somehow their device is able
to override the ignition and advance and retard according to what one
dials in.

Originally I set it at 8 degrees on the dial which is the same as the
manual calls for for the 455.
At that setting, it was also correct with a timing light. That gave me a
fair bit of room for either advancing it or retarding it. At some point
it quite operating properly. The only way I could quickly check on this
was to advance and retard it on the dial and watch my vacuum gauge and
listen to the motor speed up and slow down. Nothing was happening. After
having it repaired I am now using it at 15 on the dial which is the lock
out point and is one of the optional ways of installing it. this then
gives one about 14 degrees of retarding ability. Currently I am running
at about 11 degrees of advance if I remember correctly at idle and no
vac.

As mentioned I also have a visual knock sensor with small LEDS mounted
behind the dash which is almost invisible except when the LEDS start to
light up. An electronics friend made this, and also made for me a DC
rheostat for infinite speed control of my Fantastic fan in the bedroom,
instead of the three speeds.

I went with the MSD one as I wanted to have control myself of how much
and when I might want to advance or retard it. Others of course may
prefer to keep all this automatic.

Claude
 
Claude... how about the diagram for both the led setup for the
knocking, and the diagram for changing the fantastic fan to variable
speed. I could use both.
TIA
al
 
> It hooks in to the brown ,pink
>and black wires coming out of the dist. going to the dist cap. What is
>rather mysterious to me is how they are able to take control of the
>advance and retard electronics of these wires without cutting the wires.
>One only attaches their wires to them. So somehow their device is able
>to override the ignition and advance and retard according to what one
>dials in.
>

Claude - it must put a variable resistance and perhaps other
electronic parts in parallel with the ignition module that causes a
delay in the signal.

>As mentioned I also have a visual knock sensor with small LEDS mounted
>behind the dash which is almost invisible except when the LEDS start to
>light up. An electronics friend made this, and also made for me a DC
>rheostat for infinite speed control of my Fantastic fan in the bedroom,
>instead of the three speeds.

Can you get your friend to give us a schematic of this? My son (just
got his PhDs in Physics and Engineering from the Univ of Florida and
who I helped move in to a house in Chandler, AZ last week for his
move to work for Intel in that area) drew up a design for me that he
said should work to show the knock as a flashing light and as a
buzzer and which he says I should be able to mount to the same sender
that is used for the Caspro EKE system. I haven't bought the parts
to build it yet so it might be good to have a backup schematic just
in case it doesn't work as he says it should. I hope to start
rounding up the parts this week.

Is the reostat used for the Fantastic a solid state device or just a
variable resistor (together with the heat of a resistor)? Maybe you
can get us a drawing of that as well.

As for the use of the MSD manual retard device in conjuction with the
Caspro EKE it would be interesting to find out if each unit can be
used together to get a total advance/retard of about 30 degrees. I
know that each independently will give about of 15 degrees. Since
the description of the MSD unit indicates that it is connected in
parallel with the module in the distributor and the Caspro unit is in
series with the module (you have to cut the wire to install it) I
have no idea if the two will work together to give 30 degree advance.
A couple of us with the two different units might have to get
together and hook them both up to one engine to experiment with it.

Someone questioned why my Caspro EKE system did not stop the pinging
at Phoenix when I went down from the high elevations. Since I had
the timing set at or above 30 degrees advanced which worked well at
elevations, the EKE system would drop it to at least 15 degrees BTDC.
This, of course, proved to be too much advance at the 1000 foot level
of Phoenix. I had to manually move my distributor timing back to the
Caspro recommended level of about 12 to 14 degrees BTDC so that the
unit could then electronically retard it to stop the pinging.

My current plan is to first get a light system working that will show
the pinging from the driver's seat as I can't hear the pinging very
well, especially after putting in the insulation kit from Daren
Paget. Once I get that working I am going to develop something to
mechanically move the distributor from the dash area. I can either
use a cable with a lever, a cable with a turn knob and a threaded
shaft at the distributor, or some kind of 12 volt. linear servo
mounted on the distributor. I am leaning toward the last one. Does
anyone know of a servo unit that might work? It won't have to move
very far since a 15 degree or so change on the rotation of the
distributor is not much distance. If this works, I can have the
timing set at about 14 degrees BTDC where I know that the EKE will
work well at sea level and use the servo to mechanically move it to
30 degrees or more where I know I get my best performance at 5000 to
7000 feet above sea level. This would give me the advantage of the
automatic adjustment of the timing when going up hills but allow me
to make adjustments for large changes in elevation when travelling
from state to state.

More on this later as it gets together.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM