Thermostat

nate chase

New member
Apr 26, 1999
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Whats the best thermostat to run. Seems there is anything from 160 to 195
degree. Whats was stock and what do the 'spurts suggest? Thanks...

Nate's Uncle Morgan.
 
lots of info about this up on my web page
gene

>Whats the best thermostat to run. Seems there is anything from 160 to 195
>degree. Whats was stock and what do the 'spurts suggest? Thanks...
>
>Nate's Uncle Morgan.
>
>
Genef -- 77PB/ore/ca
GMC MOTORHOME INFORMATION
mr.erf
http://www.california.com/~eagle/
 
Arch if everything in the GMC or any car for that matter is working
correctly the thermostat in the summer will be constantly cycling on and
off. It should never be wide open. If you watch the temp gauge closely you
can see the temp rise and than the thermostat open and see it drop. At least
that is my experience in all of the cars that I have. Guess thats my myth.

>In a message dated 11/03/1999 7:12:09 PM Central Standard Time,

>
>>
>> Whats the best thermostat to run. Seems there is anything from 160 to 195
>> degree. Whats was stock and what do the 'spurts suggest? Thanks...
>>
>Nate
>
>Aint no Spurt but the hotter you run an engine----up to a point. The more
>efficient it will be. I dont think it makes much difference in the summer
>time. A 160 or a 195 will be wide open most of the time any way. Now
>in the winter time that is a different story. The engine was designed to
>run at 195------160 is not there. I will bet it wont be as efficient as at
>195.
>The other thing I know is you will not be as warm in the cockpit with a
>160 as a 190. I will admit I have never understood the logic of using a
>cooler thermostat. In the summer both are going to be wide open. In the
>winter one is going to be operating at the right temperature and the other
>is going to be too cool. Thats my hang-up and my myth.
>
>Take Care
>Arch
>
>
 
>Arch if everything in the GMC or any car for that matter is working
>correctly the thermostat in the summer will be constantly cycling on and
>off.

Thermostats are analog devices. Normally they don't cycle. The opening
varies in proportion to the temperature of the coolant. They typically
start to open at 15-20 degrees below the specified temperature and will be
fully open at the rated temperature. The result is that, on cold days, an
engine will run cooler than the thermostat rating. On warm days, when the
cooling system is reaching its full ability to keep the engine below the
rated temperature, the engine will be running at the rated temperature.

When the engine is running at a temperature higher than the temperature
specified on the thermostat, the engine temperature is no longer being
regulated by the thermostat. At this point the engine temperature will vary
in proportion to engine load and radiator airflow. If you are seeing the
temperature cycle during normal driving I would guess that its caused by
the fan clutch cycling rather than the engine thermostat.

One thing to keep in mind about thermostats is that they where originally
(in pre-emissions days) designed to establish a lower limit to the engine
operating temperature. A lower limit was needed to keep moisture and fuel
residue from building up in the engine lubricating oil.

The upper engine temperature depends on the boiling point of the coolant,
coolant flow and air-flow. The boiling point of coolant depends on its
pressure which is controlled by the radiator cap.

Keeping the boiling point of the coolant high is very critical to good
cooling, especially at higher engine temperatures. There are hot spots in
the heads that are much hotter than the engine as a whole. If the coolant
is too hot or the pressure is too low, there will be localized boiling in
these areas. This boiling will cause localized steam bubbles in the coolant
and will further reduce the coolant efficiency in these critical areas.

The 195 degree thermostat is largely a result of emissions controls
requirements. In the early emissions days, emission controls largely
consisted of limiting the number of engine variables and adjusting the
mixture and timing to operate over a more limited range of engine
variables. Thus it became necessary to raise the engine operating
temperature and to limit the range of engine operating temperatures. If an
engine is run hotter and operates over a narrow range of temperatures, the
mixture can be set leaner and the engine will produce fewer unburned
hydrocarbons in the exhaust. As a result, manufacturers switched to the 195
degree thermostats and increased the cooling capacity of their cooling
systems. These changes where done so the engines would operate hotter,
leaner and cleaner.

Other changes made to help limit the range of the engine variables where
things like intake air pre-heat manifolds and heat riser valves. These
things where used control the intake air temperature range and to speed
getting the engine temperature up to the narrow range that the system was
designed to operate in.

Of course those of us who had to live through those early attempts at
emission control can remember how well this approach worked. It was
mandated that it work for 50K miles and we could all be pretty sure that by
50K miles, it was no longer working and things where no longer running so
good....

>... Next time you are out and
>running about in the summer time and the temperature has just come down
>as you say crack the radiator cap-------naw you will get burned. You
will be
>well above 190.

In most cases a radiator will "boil over" when the cap is removed even if
the engine is not above 190. When running you can get hot spots, especially
in the heads, where the temperature is a lot more than the overall engine
temperature. If these are still hot when you release the pressure, the
coolant can boil in the heads and the steam will push coolant out of the
opening. Thats usually what happens when you open a radiator at the side of
the road after an overheat. Its also why it is a bad idea to add cool water
to an overheated engine. The heads will be very hot and dry (because
boiling has pushed the coolant out). Adding cool water will shock cool the
heads and often times crack them.

>Even in the winter time I am not sure you cant crack the
>radiator cap----

Another source of "boil over" when the radiator is opened has nothing to do
with temperature. The cooling system has air pockets which become
pressurized when the engine is warm. Releasing the pressure from the
cooling system will allow the trapped air to expand quickly and push the
coolant out of the opening. This can happen even when the engine is
reasonably cool.

In conclusion, I run my engines at 160 degrees for a number of reasons,
mostly related to reliability. Cooler temps result in longer oil life,
better lubrication, fewer oil deposits, less valve erosion, less
susceptibility to knocking, fewer problems with heat-soak and cooler
transmission oil temperatures.

Sorry for the long post. I should be working on a mid-term but, for some
reason, writing about engines is a whole lot more fun :)

Guess I should get back to work...

Dave
Ann Arbor, MI.
73 Sequoia (26'/455/EFI/HEI)
 
Guess we can disagree to disagree to disagree. One disagreement is that use
of a thermostat lower than 195 degrees is a symptom of a dying car. Its a
fact that higher thermostats were used as an emissions control supplement.
One of my major concerns is keeping the under hood temperature down on the
GMC, its just to hot for my taste. Open up that trap door after a good run
and better be ready to get a real blast of super hot air in the face.
Anything that I can do to reduce it is fair game. I am installing Thorley
headers but have had them ceramic coated inside and out. I also plan on
using a 180 degree thermostat. There is just to many positives not to use
it. No one yet has given a valid reason to continue the 195 degree thermostats.

>
>> The 195 degree thermostat is largely a result of emissions controls
>> requirements.
>
> Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on thermostats too! My 3rd (or
>was it 4th?) car was a 1963 Buick LeSabre with a 401 cu. in. V8, 2bbl carb,
>and standard 3-speed transmission. I bought it in 1965 with very high
>mileage, and immediately did a valve job to repair a damaged valve and rocker
>arm. At that time I installed the recommended 192F thermostat, for best heat
>and best efficiency. The only emission device that Buick had was a PCV
>valve, but it used a 192F thermostat.
>
> Running at a higher temperature (within the capability of engine and oil)
>increases overall efficiency, and running at a more constant temperature is,
>I believe, easier on the engine. Considering all the progress made in engine
>oils over the last 30+ years, if my Buick could handle 190+F, so should my
>GMC. Recall also that if you run an Oxygen-sensor-equipped fuel system, none
>of the factory-spec systems will go into closed-loop and give control to the
>Oxygen sensor until the engine is well over 180F. Not a concern on my GMC
>(yet), but something to consider.
>
> Even back then in high school, my friends all said "use a 160F 'stat" and
>"throw the thermostat away...". I didn't then, I don't now, and I don't
>recommend it. Old 4J1066894 (the Buick) carried me many thousands of hard
>miles dependably, and I trust TZE165V100397 will too. I always considered
>using a 160F thermostat as being akin to putting stop-leak in the radiator or
>"Motor Medic" in the engine: a last-ditch kluge for a dying old car.
> My .02.
>
>Rick Staples
>'75 Eleganza
>Louisville, CO
>
>
>
 
>Guess we can disagree to disagree to disagree.=20

At least with the thermostat issue, neither choice will risk damage to the
engine. Whatever temp we run them at, these engines seem to be quite=
durable.

>One disagreement is that use
>of a thermostat lower than 195 degrees is a symptom of a dying car.

I think this myth is a result of the fact that some people try to solve the
problem of an overheating engine by using a lower temp thermostat or none
at all. If an engine is overheating, lowering the thermostat temp is not
going to fix the problem (unless the old thermostat was bad).

My experience is that most thermostats fail open. Overheating is usually
caused by a bad fan clutch or poor radiator. Only once have I had a bad
thermostat cause overheating and I have never experienced a water pump
failure that caused overheating.

>One of my major concerns is keeping the under hood temperature down on=
the
>GMC, its just to hot for my taste.=20

I agree. This is one of the many reasons I choose the lower operating temps.

> Running at a higher temperature (within the capability of engine and
oil)=20
>increases overall efficiency, ...

This is true. And that is one of the trade-offs of running at a lower
temperature. But I have to admit that the change in mileage was not
measurable. That may have had something to do with the fact that I was
running with the Quadrajet at the time. I suspect that I would notice more
of a change in efficiency now that I have the EFI system installed.=20

>Recall also that if you run an Oxygen-sensor-equipped fuel system, none=
=20
>of the factory-spec systems will go into closed-loop and give control to
the=20
>Oxygen sensor until the engine is well over 180F. =20

Fortunately the Howell EFI system kicks into closed loop control at a much
lower temperature. I don't remember the exact number but I think its around
120 degrees. It has no problem keeping the mixture right around 14.7 as
soon as it switches into closed loop control. The 455 heats up pretty
quickly so it doesn't take long for the system to go closed loop.

One nice thing about the closed loop EFI system is that it optimizes the
mixture for whatever temperature the engine is running at. I don't feel as
bad about running my engine cooler knowing that the EFI system running at
160 degrees is cleaner than when I was using the carburetor at 195 degrees.=
=20

Dave
Ann Arbor, MI.
73 Sequoia (26'/455/EFI/HEI/160=B0)