Thermasan

R

Rich Kinas

Member
Jul 30, 2019
110
1
18
Matt and anybody that has any knowledge....

I am replacing my exhaust manifold gaskets, exhaust down pipes ,pipe flange gaskets, mufflers, etc all because of that broken lower dip-stick tube.
Actually it just started the process that I would have eventually gotten around to eventually. So while I am installing the new exhaust down pipes, I
figured I would weld bungs into place for my future ThermaSan installation. I am actually creating a modified ThermaSan install since the only parts I
actually have on hand are the pump and motor. For my injector I am going to try to use a "M18x1.5 O2 Sensor CEL Eliminator" that threads into a
standard M18x1.5 O2 bung that I am going to weld onto the down pipe about 12 inches from the manifold connector flange. And about 6 inches from the
manifold connector flange I am planning on mounting a 1/8" NPT steel bung that I will install a "2M EGT K type thermocouple exhaust probe High Temp
Sensor" to monitor my exhaust temperature. So my question so far is does this plan sound reasonable? Is if sufficient to mount the ThermaSan injector
just 6 inches down stream of the thermocouple, or should I mount it further down closer to the mufflers? I figure that what ever I end up using for my
injector the O2 sensor bung should be able to accommodate it.

Rich
--
Rich Kinas
1976 Elaganza II
Orlando, FL
 
> Are you putting in an all stainless exhaust? :lol:

The SS exaust has been in for 5 years
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
 
Although it would look awesome and make me smile everytime I crawled under
the coach, the original steel seems to have lasted 43 years so I'm planning
on just going back with mild steel. Many other areas to spend these dollars
on right now! Maybe in 10 years or so when I am looking for something to
do to spruce it up....

Rich

On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 3:00 AM Steve Southworth via Gmclist <

> > Are you putting in an all stainless exhaust? :lol:
>
> The SS exaust has been in for 5 years
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
> Palmyra WI
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Great Feedback for those not familiar with the ThermaSan. I have read
everything I could find on the ThermaSan including all the documents on the
bdub site. As an engineer the challenge to reproduce and enhance this
system is irresistible! So if I was not already working on the coach, and
these parts I would probably not be tackling it now, however since I am
here and I can modify the parts as necessary without hardly
additional labor and then just block off these parts for now, I plan on
doing that. Anyway the O2 bung would be necessary for a FI system in the
future, and the exhaust tempreature monitoring is a nice to have with out
without the ThermaSan. I'll keep everyone up to speed on this adventure as
it develops, just in case there is anybody else as crazy as I am in the
future.

Rich

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: John Wright via Gmclist
Date: Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Thermasan
To:
Cc: John Wright

To All:

There are a number of files (3) on bdub.net website:

http://bdub.net/manuals/Thermasan-flyer.pdf

http://www.bdub.net/manuals/Thermasan-OwnersManual.pdf

http://www.gmcmi.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Thermasan2-500-InstallOwners-Manual.pdf

If you have not seen these or read them they might be helpful for your
quest to burn POO!

From most GMCers that I had talked to over the last 20+ years it never
really worked well, was a very high maintenance system and most were
removed at the first time they failed due to component failure, but if that
is your quest then go for it. If your coach sets for any period of time
during the camping of travel season then you must make sure that the system
is clean from one end to the other or you will have clogging issues and
that goes for cleaning before storage including adding antifreeze if you
are in a cold climate. Also comments about using CS exhaust tubing and how
it has not failed should be taken with caution as the CS tubing will
corrode quickly in a high heat acidic atmosphere. Most SS exhaust system
that sold today are made out of 304SS as it is much more less expensive
that the highly corrosive resistant 316SS. The 304 can also suffer some
corrosion problems depending on the chemical make up of the POO being
burned.

I would better spend my time exploring the world around me than doing
constant monitoring and maintaince each travel season, but you choose your
way and enjoy your GMC your way!

Regards,

J.R. Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMC Eastern States Charter Member
GMCMI
78 GMC Buskirk 29.5’ Stretch
75 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan

> On Oct 19, 2019, at 3:00 AM, Steve Southworth via Gmclist <

>

>> Are you putting in an all stainless exhaust? :lol:
>
> The SS exaust has been in for 5 years
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
> Palmyra WI
>

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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Rich Kinas wrote: "I'll keep everyone up to speed on this adventure as
it develops, just in case there is anybody else as crazy as I am in the
future."

Please do that! I'm another crazy one who's been gathering old Thermasan parts for a while now. Always thought it was a great concept and wanted
one. FWIW, remember that our exhaust system already deals with lots of water (1 gallon of gas ~= 1 gallon of water exhausted.), as the Thermasan
literature makes clear. Since our engines work hot and hard most of the time, our exhaust systems tend to last a long time, although a rear-mounted
muffler may have a shorter life since it takes longer to warm up. (Condensation inside the muffler is the usual cause of failure.)

Some people I've talked to said the plastic tubing in the peristaltic pump would require replacement every year or so, but I would think modern
materials might help with that. If I do it, I'm thinking a fresh-water flush connection to clear the system before storage might help too.

Anyhow, keep us posted. Poop-shooters unite! You have nothing to lose but your...... Oh, whatever. ;)

Rick Staples

--
Rick Staples, '75 Eleganza, Johnstown, CO

"Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the Wise to the Wise, and all paths may run ill." -Tolkien
 
Rick thanks for the encouragement! Have you ever seen an original install
and the location of the injector? We only have about 2 feet of exhaust to
play with between the manifolds and mufflers so I don't think it would make
much of a difference, where it is mounted exactly, I am just going to make
it convenient for access, and I'll see where that ends up. As far as the
tubing, I'm not sure how close the tubing can get to the exhaust and not
have a short life. Most of even the high temperature tube I have located is
only good for 500. My thought was to use steel tube for the last 12 inches
with compression fittings attached to my O2 eliminator. Well see.... I like
the idea of a flush out mechanism, I'm going to have to think about that...

Rich

On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 5:59 PM Richard H Staples via Gmclist <

> Rich Kinas wrote: "I'll keep everyone up to speed on this adventure as
> it develops, just in case there is anybody else as crazy as I am in the
> future."
>
> Please do that! I'm another crazy one who's been gathering old Thermasan
> parts for a while now. Always thought it was a great concept and wanted
> one. FWIW, remember that our exhaust system already deals with lots of
> water (1 gallon of gas ~= 1 gallon of water exhausted.), as the Thermasan
> literature makes clear. Since our engines work hot and hard most of the
> time, our exhaust systems tend to last a long time, although a rear-mounted
> muffler may have a shorter life since it takes longer to warm up.
> (Condensation inside the muffler is the usual cause of failure.)
>
> Some people I've talked to said the plastic tubing in the peristaltic pump
> would require replacement every year or so, but I would think modern
> materials might help with that. If I do it, I'm thinking a fresh-water
> flush connection to clear the system before storage might help too.
>
> Anyhow, keep us posted. Poop-shooters unite! You have nothing to lose
> but your...... Oh, whatever. ;)
>
> Rick Staples
>
> --
> Rick Staples, '75 Eleganza, Johnstown, CO
>
> "Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the Wise to the Wise, and all paths
> may run ill." -Tolkien
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
From what remember, the injector included a stainless screen that was about 50 mess that wrapped around the injector probe. There was also a finer
screen in the tank pick up. This seemed to be effective at atomizing the effluent. It seemed that being in the exhaust heat was important, but
considering the possibility of of exhaust system corrosion was never an issue as the injected liquid was very small and the exhaust system was hot.
Injection also only occurred when the engine had road load on it.

The original Thermasan required that a "Sanitizer" (A mini muffler) be spliced into the exhaust system. This had both the injector and a thermocouple
in it. That was dropped in favor of the strap-in injector and other controls.

The thermocouple based control also fell out of favor when tests showed that it allowed the pump to run when there was not adequate load on the main
engine. It was dropped in favor of a vacuum switch and a road speed switch. That was more reliable as a control, easier to install and less
expensive. The vacuum switches are still available, but I have not seen a road speed switch in years. Not even the several that I had in a junk box
three moves ago. I expect one could be ginned up with modern electronics that would not require all the speedo cable adapters that one had to have.

Very memorable was the remark from the member of a motorhome convoy that showed up at the facility one day. He remarked that when one of the coaches
ahead had his Thermosan running those behind got treated to an aroma that could best be described as cooking a diaper.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
“He remarked that when one of the coaches
ahead had his Thermosan running those behind got treated to an aroma that could best be described as cooking a diaper.”

All the bad jokes that ran through my warped sense of humor with that one.

That being said, I still want one.

Dolph Santorine

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 ex-Palm Beach TZE167V100820
Howell EFI/EBL , Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

>
> He remarked that when one of the coaches
> ahead had his Thermosan running those behind got treated to an aroma that could best be described as cooking a diaper.
 
How about just a manual on off switch. Let the driver decide when to scent the road behind.

--
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
 
> How about just a manual on off switch. Let the driver decide when to scent the road behind.

All versions always included a driver controlled OFF switch. The controls only prevented there being wet material in the exhaust. We often had
discussions about "Odor Limits" and when it got to "annoying but not objectionable" the flow rate was too small to bother with using it.

And yes Dolph,
All the bad jokes apply.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
On my '74 OEM thermasan OEM install the injector was located about 10" from the manifold.

As noted by MattC the thermocouple system can trigger when the exhaust flow is not high. Lately my thermocouple readings have been a bit goofy so I
have been controlling manually. It works but is a PITA.

Baked diaper - yep. This can be used to our advantage. Some idiot tailgating you. No problem. Just manually Thermasan them. Shortly they will, as
if by magic back off. . We have the word "Thermasan'd" just under the drivers toll window. Underneath it, just like bomb markers on an
aircraft, are placed auto stickers upside down, to indicate successful "kills".
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
 
Thats awesome!!!! Always have to make sure you have a little something in
the tank just for those special occasions. My plan is to monitor exhaust
temperature, vacuum, and speed. I'm building a small custom logic board to
take all the inputs and trigger a relay to close. All the inputs have
tune-able pots on the board to fine tune the system once it is in. Still
mocking up initial sensors, and logic. I'm hoping to be able to put
together something that, anyone else interested in giving it a shot, has a
way to start that may not be so electrically inclined. I'll publish the
schematic with parts, etc once I have something really workable. If anybody
has any thoughts on the flushing idea, I'd be glad to here them.

Rich

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:53 PM Steve Southworth via Gmclist <

> On my '74 OEM thermasan OEM install the injector was located about 10"
> from the manifold.
>
> As noted by MattC the thermocouple system can trigger when the exhaust
> flow is not high. Lately my thermocouple readings have been a bit goofy so
> I
> have been controlling manually. It works but is a PITA.
>
> Baked diaper - yep. This can be used to our advantage. Some idiot
> tailgating you. No problem. Just manually Thermasan them. Shortly they
> will, as
> if by magic back off. . We have the word "Thermasan'd" just under
> the drivers toll window. Underneath it, just like bomb markers on an
> aircraft, are placed auto stickers upside down, to indicate successful
> "kills".
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
> Palmyra WI
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
bought a thermasan system on the Ebay two years ago with plans to install on the 73. didn't get to it. now with the 77 royale there are two tanks...
maybe just hook to the gray water and use a macerator on the black tank? will miss the opportunity to diaper those behind but believe the gray will
fill up a lot sooner than the black tank.
--
Stephan Ashe
1973 26-6 painted desert?
1977 Royale sidebath
Tucson Az
 
> bought a thermasan system on the Ebay two years ago with plans to install on the 73. didn't get to it. now with the 77 royale there are two
> tanks... maybe just hook to the gray water and use a macerator on the black tank? will miss the opportunity to diaper those behind but believe the
> gray will fill up a lot sooner than the black tank.

The advantage of the Thermasan is, when traveling daily, the tank gets emptied and there is no need to look for a place to dump the black tank. If I
had a Royale I would set up a two way electric valve so either tank could be burned.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
 
Please keep us advised as to your progress and also after a year of use.

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 9:43 PM Steve Southworth via Gmclist <

> > bought a thermasan system on the Ebay two years ago with plans to
> install on the 73. didn't get to it. now with the 77 royale there are two
> > tanks... maybe just hook to the gray water and use a macerator on the
> black tank? will miss the opportunity to diaper those behind but believe the
> > gray will fill up a lot sooner than the black tank.
>
> The advantage of the Thermasan is, when traveling daily, the tank gets
> emptied and there is no need to look for a place to dump the black tank.
> If I
> had a Royale I would set up a two way electric valve so either tank could
> be burned.
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
> Palmyra WI
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
 
> Please keep us advised as to your progress and also after a year of use.
>
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 9:43 PM Steve Southworth via Gmclist <

>

>> > bought a thermasan system on the Ebay two years ago with plans to
>> install on the 73. didn't get to it. now with the 77 royale there are two
>> > tanks... maybe just hook to the gray water and use a macerator on the
>> black tank? will miss the opportunity to diaper those behind but believe the
>> > gray will fill up a lot sooner than the black tank.
>>
>> The advantage of the Thermasan is, when traveling daily, the tank gets
>> emptied and there is no need to look for a place to dump the black tank.
>> If I
>> had a Royale I would set up a two way electric valve so either tank could
>> be burned.
>> --
>> Steve Southworth
>> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
>> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
>> Palmyra WI
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk
> http://www.appliedgmcrvparts.com
> 1-800-752-7502
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
 
> bought a thermasan system on the Ebay two years ago with plans to install on the 73. didn't get to it. now with the 77 royale there are two
> tanks... maybe just hook to the gray water and use a macerator on the black tank? will miss the opportunity to diaper those behind but believe the
> gray will fill up a lot sooner than the black tank.

> The advantage of the Thermasan is, when traveling daily, the tank gets emptied and there is no need to look for a place to dump the black tank.
> If I had a Royale I would set up a two way electric valve so either tank could be burned.
\

The electric valve will probably foul and leak.
Or, as we had planned to do in a bus application. stack two (or more) pumps with some threaded rod. You can actually buy pump element hoses with
smaller ID to manipulate the pumped volume.

These pumps are not damaged by running dry, but the life of the hose element is not real long.

Matt

--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Last time I saw a photo of a thermosan system, it struck me that they appeared to be using a Masterflex L/S peristaltic pump. And probably the 100rpm
pump head since I don't think you'd want to shoot your black water into the exhaust at the flow provided by the 600rpm version. I imagine slower is
better in that application. Here's what that pump appears to be imo:

https://www.masterflex.com/p/masterflex-l-s-standard-pump-heads-for-precision-tubing/4448

A little background on these pumps, they are common in labs, the 90V DC pump motor is speed controlled by varying the DC voltage to the motor. In an
RV I suspect they would have skipped the speed controller and just run it on 12V at the reduced speed.

From experience with these pumps, they take a special tubing available from Cole Parmer to work properly. Don't just try to use a cheap vinyl tubing
from HomeDepot, you'll destroy the gear box on the motor and it probably won't pump anyway. Check out the prices on the pump motor / gear box
replacement before skimping on the tubing ($1000 or so?). The size of the tubing you need is determined by the number on the removable pump head, get
the right tubing. If you want help determining the right tubing, let me know.

Also from experience, I would estimate that if the roller part of the pump head is in good condition, and you put in the right tubing, you will
probably never wear out the tubing during your lifetime of use in your motorhome unless you drive your coach 24/7 for about 2 years straight. Then you
might want to change the tubing. But under normal use if you get the silicone platinum tubing, I doubt you'll ever wear it out.

The downside is that, when the tubing does fail it fails by leaking whatever is being pumped out from the pump head. If it's in a place where it can
drain safely then no worries, run it until it leaks.

Also, this is a positive displacement pump. If the outlet becomes obstructed it will develop some pretty high pressure and could blow a connection or
the tubing apart.

Brushes are available for the motor, those can wear out.

Also, as a piece of lab equipment, the prices on everything related to these is also lab grade = high. One good source you may consider instead of
going to Cole Parmer is looking on ebay. They come up frequently if you know what to search for. Based on the photo I saw, you would want to search
for "Masterflex".

Hopefully this is helpful to someone interested in building or repairing their thermosan system.
--
Todd Snyder, Buffalo NY
1976 Eleganza II
 
When I bought my coach 15 years ago, it had a Thermasan with the injector installed on the driver side Y-pipe about 1 foot from the muffler. One day I
was heading up a grade on HWY 80 in Utah, and the muffler seam ripped open making a loud racket.
When I got home and removed the muffler, I could see solid brick-like rocks inside the blown out muffler. You can imagine where they came from.
--
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
 
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