Struggling with torsion bar loading.

[billvv]

I've recently finished a front end rebuild and at the tension bar loading step. I'm using a borrowed tool that looks like the Kent Moore one, and have
to use a cheater bar and some force to raise the pork chop. The U-bolt arms and center bolt get out of alignment the more it raises the pork chop. I
think the U-bolt arms are cocking in the crossmember holes as the PC socket and center bolt head make their arc up and outboard.

I was able to get the drivers' side up using a different tool (a simple U-bolt rather than the KM with the sloped shoulders). After I finished I
noticed that the bolt had bent!

For the passenger side I am using the KM-type tool, but stopped as the center bolt gets harder to turn.

I think it would work better if the crossbar rested against the crossmember, but you have to raise the PC over halfway just to get it to clear. I
think if I could somehow start the tool with the PC partway up, I'd be in more of the vertical part of the arc and avoid a lot of the misalignment,
but the bolt just seems too hard to turn. In the meantime, I've removed the shock and let the LCA lower as far as it can. Would that make that much of
a difference in loading?

Thoughts?

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.

 

[tyler]

Not sure of your whole procedure, but you are unloading the torsion bar before cranking on the bolt correct? It will not stand the force of just
turning it in normal load position.

When I did it, I literally repeated each side 3-5 times (alternating) with a drive and check at a local flat parking lot each time to get it settled.
Simple theory (up and down) but a lot of factors go into it.

--
1975 Glenbrook, 1978 Royale rear bath
Raleigh, NC

 

[Ken H.]

Bill,

I've adjusted a few torsion bars, but always with the U-bolt tools. The
tool always tends to cock -- to the extent that once we actually broke the
5/8" forcing screw. The best solution I've found is to tighten the
crossbar up against the crossmember -- not snug, just enough to prevent
cocking.

They're dumb questions, but do you have the forcing screw well lubricated,
preferably with moly or graphite containing grease? And the guide pin in
the U seated well in the hole in the crossmember above the pork chop?

Releasing the shocks to allow the A-arms to sag all the way should help
slightly, but not be necessary.

Ken H.

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 12:13 AM Bill Van Vlack
wrote:

> I've recently finished a front end rebuild and at the tension bar loading
> step. I'm using a borrowed tool that looks like the Kent Moore one, and have
> to use a cheater bar and some force to raise the pork chop. The U-bolt
> arms and center bolt get out of alignment the more it raises the pork chop.
> I
> think the U-bolt arms are cocking in the crossmember holes as the PC
> socket and center bolt head make their arc up and outboard.
>
> I was able to get the drivers' side up using a different tool (a simple
> U-bolt rather than the KM with the sloped shoulders). After I finished I
> noticed that the bolt had bent!
>
> For the passenger side I am using the KM-type tool, but stopped as the
> center bolt gets harder to turn.
>
> I think it would work better if the crossbar rested against the
> crossmember, but you have to raise the PC over halfway just to get it to
> clear. I
> think if I could somehow start the tool with the PC partway up, I'd be in
> more of the vertical part of the arc and avoid a lot of the misalignment,
> but the bolt just seems too hard to turn. In the meantime, I've removed
> the shock and let the LCA lower as far as it can. Would that make that much
> of
> a difference in loading?
>
> Thoughts?
>
>

 

[billvv]

Ken,
No dumb questions, and thanks for the thoughts.

I've lubricated with Mobil 1, and have some Moly to use if that is better.

Because I completely unloaded the TB to get the lower control arm off, I'm starting the loading process with the pork chop end abt 2" below the
crossmember, so can't get the crossbar against the crossmember. If I tightened the side bolts I could get it there as it pushed against the PC while
turns and raises. That doesn't seem right, somehow, though.

The center pin of the U-bolt is firmly in the crossmember hole.

After the first try on the passenger side I removed the shock, but I haven't tried it again.

Tilerpep,
See above... The adjusting nut and bolt cannot be installed until the PC is rotated up in the crossmember enough to clear the openings.
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.

 

[Matt Colie]

> Ken,
> No dumb questions, and thanks for the thoughts.
>
> I've lubricated with Mobil 1, and have some Moly to use if that is better.
>

Bill,

Yes, Moly is better. And it can be a lot better.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

 

[jim miller]

> I've lubricated with Mobil 1, and have some Moly to use if that is better.

In my distant past I worked at a shop where we regularly assembled very large shafts, bearings and gears - bearings up to 14” diameter and gears up to 12 feet OD. We used various types of presses and hydraulic cylinders to do the work and on larger jobs we would use multiple cylinders to press up to 1800 tons in order to get parts to move. The _absolute best_ lube for these forcing tasks was anti-sieze compound. If we did not use anti-sieze then we were guaranteed to have galling problems that would destroy either the bearings or the shafts on which they were to be pressed or both.

I made a couple GMC torsion bar unloaders a while back and used anti-sieze on the forcing screws - it worked great and I would not think of using anything else in this particular application.

Just my $0.02.

—Jim


Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

 

[terry1]

Gotta go with Jim on the anti-seize as a thread lube on various screw tools. Works better than anything else and stays on the threads. Can be a PITA
to get out of your fingerprints though, so I try to use the nitrile gloves so I can grab any part of the tool and wipe the glove off afterward with
carb cleaner and not spread the lube to every surface I touch.

When I had to R&R the torsion bars I had to use a jack to raise the pork chop enough to put the loading tool on the left side. Since that side did not
require disconnecting the lower ball joint (just the shock) to get the bar loose, it should have gone back together later that day with no
binding...WRONG. I guess the bar untwisted some when it was unloaded or something else strange was going on, but the bottle jack had to twist the chop
to get the tool on and it was VERY dangerous if not done very carefully the jack could slip and fly like pigs do.

The right side had the lower ball joint disconnected so the bar would go right in, but it was still dangerous using a floor jack to raise the LCA and
try to get all that mess back together (axle in the way,etc.) with the torsion bar now loaded against the jack.
--
Terry Kelpien

ASE Master Technician

73 Glacier 260

Smithfield, Va.

 

[Rdenney]

I also use anti-seize on the threads.

Bill, you can absolutely use the outer bolts to start the process of
loading the pork chop. Just a turn on each side, going back and forth. But
it's tedious.

You can also crank it up a bit, and then install the adjuster screw and
snug it up. Then, loosen the forcing screw, tighten the outer screws to
take up the slack, and then jack it up some more.

The problem is that the torsion bars and pork chops have a lot of lateral
positioning slop until they are tight (at which point they don't move), and
if pushed to one side, the alignment hole for the tool will no longer be as
centered as it should be. But when I did this recently, I could not get the
rear of the bar and the pork chop to stay in a more favorable spot. Might
be possible with more than two arms.

When I started my front-end project, I didn't realize how much those tools
could get out of alignment, and it startled me. I reached out to KenH as I
often do when I need expert advice, and he told me the story of breaking
the Acme-threaded screw on one of his tools. That did not make me any less
startled. Going up in stages seems the better alternative. I use Jim Hupy's
tool, which seems about as able to handle misalignment as any, but when
it's cocked to one side like that, the threads bind terribly and it's hard
enough turning them against the force of the torsion bar.

Rick "never comfortable winding up really strong springs" Denney

> In my distant past I worked at a shop where we regularly assembled very
> large shafts, bearings and gears - bearings up to 14” diameter and gears up
> to 12 feet OD. We used various types of presses and hydraulic cylinders to
> do the work and on larger jobs we would use multiple cylinders to press up
> to 1800 tons in order to get parts to move. The _absolute best_ lube for
> these forcing tasks was anti-sieze compound. If we did not use anti-sieze
> then we were guaranteed to have galling problems that would destroy either
> the bearings or the shafts on which they were to be pressed or both.
>

--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com

 

[Jim Hupy]

Lubrication is your friend. Especially EXTREME PRESSURE GREASE AND ANTI
SEEZ.
When you are lifting the entire front end of the coach, as well as
tensioning the torsion bars, there are tremendous forces at work there. I
always have the coach on jack stands when tensioning the pork chops.
Once, when I was in Canada working on coaches with assistance from
some well intentioned but inexperienced help who placed the adjustment nut
on the up side of the pork chop, and then proceeded to tighten the hell out
of my tool, complaining that they could not tighten it further. When I had
finished with the other side, I slid under the side they were working on,
had a good chuckle, re-positioned everything and adjusted it too. Make sure
that is not what is going on in your situation.
Jim Hupy

> I also use anti-seize on the threads.
>
> Bill, you can absolutely use the outer bolts to start the process of
> loading the pork chop. Just a turn on each side, going back and forth. But
> it's tedious.
>
> You can also crank it up a bit, and then install the adjuster screw and
> snug it up. Then, loosen the forcing screw, tighten the outer screws to
> take up the slack, and then jack it up some more.
>
> The problem is that the torsion bars and pork chops have a lot of lateral
> positioning slop until they are tight (at which point they don't move), and
> if pushed to one side, the alignment hole for the tool will no longer be as
> centered as it should be. But when I did this recently, I could not get the
> rear of the bar and the pork chop to stay in a more favorable spot. Might
> be possible with more than two arms.
>
> When I started my front-end project, I didn't realize how much those tools
> could get out of alignment, and it startled me. I reached out to KenH as I
> often do when I need expert advice, and he told me the story of breaking
> the Acme-threaded screw on one of his tools. That did not make me any less
> startled. Going up in stages seems the better alternative. I use Jim Hupy's
> tool, which seems about as able to handle misalignment as any, but when
> it's cocked to one side like that, the threads bind terribly and it's hard
> enough turning them against the force of the torsion bar.
>
> Rick "never comfortable winding up really strong springs" Denney
>

>
> > In my distant past I worked at a shop where we regularly assembled very
> > large shafts, bearings and gears - bearings up to 14” diameter and gears
> up
> > to 12 feet OD. We used various types of presses and hydraulic cylinders
> to
> > do the work and on larger jobs we would use multiple cylinders to press
> up
> > to 1800 tons in order to get parts to move. The _absolute best_ lube for
> > these forcing tasks was anti-sieze compound. If we did not use anti-sieze
> > then we were guaranteed to have galling problems that would destroy
> either
> > the bearings or the shafts on which they were to be pressed or both.
> >
>
> --
> '73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> Northern Virginia
> Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[hal stclair]

Having had way too much experience with the TB's the last couple of years I can offer up that Jim's tool is the best by far. I've redone bars over a
dozen times in the last three years using different angle PC's as well as adjustable PC's I've gone from stock 1.19" diameter to the Huber bars which
are tougher 1.26" diameter to the late Revcon bars which are 1 3/8" diameter and slightly shorter making them REALLY stout.
The plan is to get the bars in the correct position to let the pork chop rotate without binding. You will probably need to wedge the PC side to side
to find the ideal spot, not an easy task for sure. Using a bottle jack on the nose of the PC might let you get the unloading tool positioned correctly
but there isn't much room to play with and you're working with some pretty severe loads so be extra careful. Lifting the vehicle and unbolting the
front shocks help too. Sometimes you get lucky and everything just falls into place-not really, it's almost always a fight. All the advise given here
has been spot on, just be tenacious and careful, you'll get it done.
Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1975 Eleganza II, 101230,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,

Rio Rancho, NM

 

[Ken H.]

We keep coming back to needing a jack to help move the pork chop. That is,
indeed, a potentially dangerous operation. But, when I had to use that
method "in the middle of Texas", on a muddy field with a plywood work
surface, I found a slight improvement: Take the little rotation pad off of
the top of the jack's shaft. That leaves a spherical end which, in my
case, fit right into the pork chop's socket. With that, I was able to more
safely jack the pork chop in far enough to allow insertion of the threaded
block for the adjusting screw.

Ken H.

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 4:34 PM Hal StClair
wrote:

> Having had way too much experience with the TB's the last couple of years
> I can offer up that Jim's tool is the best by far. I've redone bars over a
> dozen times in the last three years using different angle PC's as well as
> adjustable PC's I've gone from stock 1.19" diameter to the Huber bars which
> are tougher 1.26" diameter to the late Revcon bars which are 1 3/8"
> diameter and slightly shorter making them REALLY stout.
> The plan is to get the bars in the correct position to let the pork chop
> rotate without binding. You will probably need to wedge the PC side to side
> to find the ideal spot, not an easy task for sure. Using a bottle jack on
> the nose of the PC might let you get the unloading tool positioned correctly
> but there isn't much room to play with and you're working with some pretty
> severe loads so be extra careful. Lifting the vehicle and unbolting the
> front shocks help too. Sometimes you get lucky and everything just falls
> into place-not really, it's almost always a fight. All the advise given here
> has been spot on, just be tenacious and careful, you'll get it done.
> Hal
>

 

[billvv]

Thanks for the help and commiseration.

I've successfully loaded the passenger side torsion bar, so I'm pretty sure the adjusting nut and bolt are installed correctly. On that side I used a
borrowed unloader tool that had large square threads. The center bolt bent on the way up, which I discovered as I was removing it. I have a second
loaned tool that is more like the Kent Moore one that I am using on the drivers side and have used it to load the porkchop about half way and stopped
to assess what is going on.

After this advice, I will remove it and lubricate it with anti-seize, and try to figure out a way to move the torsion bar outward where it passes
through the crossmember to shorten the distance between the center pin and the center bolt recess in the porkchop. Right now, it's sitting all the way
inboard.

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.

 

[billvv]

Earlier I mentioned that the torsion bar enters the crossmember off center and is resting against the inboard side of the hole. This must mean that
the torsion bar is bent - is that a problem?

Because it's offset inboard, so is the pork chop and this moves the recess for the unloader tool in a direction that increases the misalignment of the
tool as the recess moves up and outboard. Has anyone pulled the torsion bar outboard with clamps or another method to minimize the misalignment?

In any event, today is the day I will try to load and set the drivers side torsion bar.
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.

 

[Jim Hupy]

Bill, if you need a torsion bar, I have some new ones.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or

On Sat, Jun 30, 2018, 9:22 AM Bill Van Vlack
wrote:

> Earlier I mentioned that the torsion bar enters the crossmember off center
> and is resting against the inboard side of the hole. This must mean that
> the torsion bar is bent - is that a problem?
>
> Because it's offset inboard, so is the pork chop and this moves the recess
> for the unloader tool in a direction that increases the misalignment of the
> tool as the recess moves up and outboard. Has anyone pulled the torsion
> bar outboard with clamps or another method to minimize the misalignment?
>
> In any event, today is the day I will try to load and set the drivers side
> torsion bar.
> --
> Bill Van Vlack
> '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath,
> Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o
> mid
> November 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[billvv]

I hope I won't Jim. The one in there isn't bent much, I needed to push it a little to get it into the hole in the crossarm after I moved the
crossarm back. Since it's bent in the wrong direction, is there any problem with moving the crossarm back again and re-inserting it in the LCA with
the bend in the right (outboard) direction? Can I do that with the other side already loaded?
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.

 

[Jim Hupy]

The suspension is independent EXCEPT for the sway bar and the links. Never
have disconnected the links with one bar loaded, but, I suppose if you
support the lca underneath you might be ok. There are literally tons of
force there, SO BE CAREFUL, AND STAY OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE.
Jim Hupy

On Sat, Jun 30, 2018, 11:02 AM Bill Van Vlack
wrote:

> I hope I won't Jim. The one in there isn't bent much, I needed to push
> it a little to get it into the hole in the crossarm after I moved the
> crossarm back. Since it's bent in the wrong direction, is there any
> problem with moving the crossarm back again and re-inserting it in the LCA
> with
> the bend in the right (outboard) direction? Can I do that with the other
> side already loaded?
> --
> Bill Van Vlack
> '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath,
> Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o
> mid
> November 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[Ken H.]

Bill,

I don't think you can remove the torsion bar without releasing the "pork
chop crossmember" from the chassis side rails. I've never tried releasing
one end with the other torsion bar under tension, but I imagine that moving
that free end to the rear will be somewhat difficult and potentially
hazardous. It's also likely to bind the torsion bar's hex end in the pork
chop, leading to the temptation to use a hammer.

Personally, I'd try using a clamp, cargo strap, or other method to pull the
torsion bar toward the outside -- I don't really think a bent torsion bar
is your problem. Rather, the pork chop is just shifted to one side. Even
a pry bar between the torsion bar and the crossmember hole side might be
enough to re-center it.

If all that failed, I'd relieve the tension on the other torsion bar before
moving the crossmember.

JWID,

Ken H.

On Sat, Jun 30, 2018, 11:02 AM Bill Van Vlack

>
> > I hope I won't Jim. The one in there isn't bent much, I needed to push
> > it a little to get it into the hole in the crossarm after I moved the
> > crossarm back. Since it's bent in the wrong direction, is there any
> > problem with moving the crossarm back again and re-inserting it in the
> LCA
> > with
> > the bend in the right (outboard) direction? Can I do that with the other
> > side already loaded?
> > --
>
>

 

[Jim Hupy]

Ken, I don't think that disconnecting the crossmember is a good idea with
one side loaded. I was thinking more towards removing the lower control
arm, but was concerned about the sway bar links. If the axles and hubs and
knuckles are still installed along with the shocks, we might be talking
about the impossible task. This started out to be a ride height adjustment,
but rapidly turned into a C.F. of the highest order. He does not live very
far from me, and I have many of the parts he might require. Still kinda
trying to see exactly what the problem is.
Jim Hupy
Salem,

> Bill,
>
> I don't think you can remove the torsion bar without releasing the "pork
> chop crossmember" from the chassis side rails. I've never tried releasing
> one end with the other torsion bar under tension, but I imagine that moving
> that free end to the rear will be somewhat difficult and potentially
> hazardous. It's also likely to bind the torsion bar's hex end in the pork
> chop, leading to the temptation to use a hammer.
>
> Personally, I'd try using a clamp, cargo strap, or other method to pull the
> torsion bar toward the outside -- I don't really think a bent torsion bar
> is your problem. Rather, the pork chop is just shifted to one side. Even
> a pry bar between the torsion bar and the crossmember hole side might be
> enough to re-center it.
>
> If all that failed, I'd relieve the tension on the other torsion bar before
> moving the crossmember.
>
> JWID,
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018, 11:02 AM Bill Van Vlack

> >
> > > I hope I won't Jim. The one in there isn't bent much, I needed to
> push
> > > it a little to get it into the hole in the crossarm after I moved the
> > > crossarm back. Since it's bent in the wrong direction, is there any
> > > problem with moving the crossarm back again and re-inserting it in the
> > LCA
> > > with
> > > the bend in the right (outboard) direction? Can I do that with the
> other
> > > side already loaded?
> > > --
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

Bill,

I don't think you can remove the torsion bar without releasing the "pork
chop crossmember" from the chassis side rails. I've never tried releasing
one end with the other torsion bar under tension, but I imagine that moving
that free end to the rear will be somewhat difficult and potentially
hazardous. It's also likely to bind the torsion bar's hex end in the pork
chop, leading to the temptation to use a hammer.

Personally, I'd try using a clamp, cargo strap, or other method to pull the
torsion bar toward the outside -- I don't really think a bent torsion bar
is your problem. Rather, the pork chop is just shifted to one side. Even
a pry bar between the torsion bar and the crossmember hole side might be
enough to re-center it.

If all that failed, I'd relieve the tension on the other torsion bar before
moving the crossmember.

JWID,

Ken H.

On Sat, Jun 30, 2018, 11:02 AM Bill Van Vlack

>
> > I hope I won't Jim. The one in there isn't bent much, I needed to
push
> > it a little to get it into the hole in the crossarm after I moved the
> > crossarm back. Since it's bent in the wrong direction, is there any
> > problem with moving the crossarm back again and re-inserting it in the
> LCA
> > with
> > the bend in the right (outboard) direction? Can I do that with the other
> > side already loaded?
> > --
>
>
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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[Jim Hupy]

Ken, I don't think that disconnecting the crossmember is a good idea with
one side loaded. I was thinking more towards removing the lower control
arm, but was concerned about the sway bar links. If the axles and hubs and
knuckles are still installed along with the shocks, we might be talking
about the impossible task. This started out to be a ride height adjustment,
but rapidly turned into a C.F. of the highest order. He does not live very
far from me, and I have many of the parts he might require. Still kinda
trying to see exactly what the problem is.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

Bill,

I don't think you can remove the torsion bar without releasing the "pork
chop crossmember" from the chassis side rails. I've never tried releasing
one end with the other torsion bar under tension, but I imagine that moving
that free end to the rear will be somewhat difficult and potentially
hazardous. It's also likely to bind the torsion bar's hex end in the pork
chop, leading to the temptation to use a hammer.

Personally, I'd try using a clamp, cargo strap, or other method to pull the
torsion bar toward the outside -- I don't really think a bent torsion bar
is your problem. Rather, the pork chop is just shifted to one side. Even
a pry bar between the torsion bar and the crossmember hole side might be
enough to re-center it.

If all that failed, I'd relieve the tension on the other torsion bar before
moving the crossmember.

JWID,

Ken H.

On Sat, Jun 30, 2018, 11:02 AM Bill Van Vlack

>
> > I hope I won't Jim. The one in there isn't bent much, I needed to
push
> > it a little to get it into the hole in the crossarm after I moved the
> > crossarm back. Since it's bent in the wrong direction, is there any
> > problem with moving the crossarm back again and re-inserting it in the
> LCA
> > with
> > the bend in the right (outboard) direction? Can I do that with the other
> > side already loaded?
> > --
>
>
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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[hal stclair]

I've had the same issue you mention with the bars angled outboard. I used a come-along to pull it over, didn't have much luck trying to pry it over
with a bar. It's most likely not a bent bar, I really don't know exactly what causes the shift but I noticed it on two different coaches.
Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1975 Eleganza II, 101230,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,

Rio Rancho, NM