Seeking advice. Engine failure. Non-GMC

The comment about using Quaker State oil reminded me of an experience back
in about '75. As a USAF R&D manager, I had a young physics PhD working for
me. He had a whole herd of kids that he hauled around in a 10 yr or so old
Chevy station wagon with about 200,000 miles on it. He was almost as proud
of that wagon as he was those kids, but knew nothing about mechanical
stuff. One day he called me in a panic: "I had the oil changed in my car
a few days ago and now the dipstick looks like it's covered in tar and the
engine's making funny noises!" When I got to his house and pulled the
dipstick, he was right -- the darned thing DID look covered in tar, and the
engine clattered something awful. Rebuild time, obviously.

I don't know whether I knew before or it came out in the discussion, but
he'd ALWAYS used straight 30W Quaker State oil in that engine. But with
the modern fad being detergent oils, he'd told the oil change shop to put
some in there. Since he was really in no financial position to have the
engine rebuilt, I suggested he have the oil changed again and go back to
the 30W QS. After about a week, the engine was running great again, with a
clean dipstick! Oh yeah, when one looked in the caps on the rocker covers,
there was just a big black gob of carbon on EVERYTHING! I've never used
ANY Quaker State oil since then.

One of life's lessons... :-)

Ken H.

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:14 PM Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist <

> Valid point. As far as I know you have to not keep the engine at constant
> RPM for too long during first couple hundred miles. I like the idea of
> the magnet on the oil filter. I cut open filters at oil changes and check
> how everything looks in there. Would be interesting to see what kind of
> goop magnet will attract out of the oil during the breaking oil change.
> I ran 5x30 Quaker state oil on this engine. Had served me well so far.
> --
> Vadim Jitkov
> '76 Glenbrook 26'
> Pullman, WA
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
When we disassembled the 272 -292 - 312 Ford Y blocks, they were full of
sludge if they were on ND oils. Quaker State and Pennzoil were often the
culprit. Had similar results when the engines were switched to Detergent
oil. Godawful mess inside.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 5:14 PM Ken Henderson via Gmclist <

> The comment about using Quaker State oil reminded me of an experience back
> in about '75. As a USAF R&D manager, I had a young physics PhD working for
> me. He had a whole herd of kids that he hauled around in a 10 yr or so old
> Chevy station wagon with about 200,000 miles on it. He was almost as proud
> of that wagon as he was those kids, but knew nothing about mechanical
> stuff. One day he called me in a panic: "I had the oil changed in my car
> a few days ago and now the dipstick looks like it's covered in tar and the
> engine's making funny noises!" When I got to his house and pulled the
> dipstick, he was right -- the darned thing DID look covered in tar, and the
> engine clattered something awful. Rebuild time, obviously.
>
> I don't know whether I knew before or it came out in the discussion, but
> he'd ALWAYS used straight 30W Quaker State oil in that engine. But with
> the modern fad being detergent oils, he'd told the oil change shop to put
> some in there. Since he was really in no financial position to have the
> engine rebuilt, I suggested he have the oil changed again and go back to
> the 30W QS. After about a week, the engine was running great again, with a
> clean dipstick! Oh yeah, when one looked in the caps on the rocker covers,
> there was just a big black gob of carbon on EVERYTHING! I've never used
> ANY Quaker State oil since then.
>
> One of life's lessons... :-)
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:14 PM Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist <

>
> > Valid point. As far as I know you have to not keep the engine at
> constant
> > RPM for too long during first couple hundred miles. I like the idea of
> > the magnet on the oil filter. I cut open filters at oil changes and
> check
> > how everything looks in there. Would be interesting to see what kind of
> > goop magnet will attract out of the oil during the breaking oil change.
> > I ran 5x30 Quaker state oil on this engine. Had served me well so far.
> > --
> > Vadim Jitkov
> > '76 Glenbrook 26'
> > Pullman, WA
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
In the late 60’s I bought a ’47 Plymouth 2-seater coupe, cherry, from the original owner. Being young and “smart” I immediately changed the oil to a good multi-grade detergent oil. On my way to my girlfriends farm after the oil change it cooked the valve train due to a wad of crap in an oil gallery. I was saved when her dad came and towed it to the farm and sent me home after the weekend. To my amazement, a week later they called and said it was fixed. Turns out they had just ordered a short block from the local Sears outlet and installed it. Total cost to me, $250. After the exact same thing happened to me to a ’67 Buick LeSabre (minus the cheap fix) I swore off non-detergent oil. Not much useful information for this forum, but maybe another reminder that your oil carries away an astounding amount of crap you don’t want and an oil change is an easy trip to the engine laundromat.

Douglas & Virginia Smith
dsmithy18 at gmail
Lincoln Nebraska
’73 “Canyonlands” since ‘95: “Wanabizo”, Anishinabe Indian for “He gets lost driving” Yes, really.
Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3;70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Sundry other
P&W PT6, no wait, that's the wish list...

>
> When we disassembled the 272 -292 - 312 Ford Y blocks, they were full of
> sludge if they were on ND oils. Quaker State and Pennzoil were often the
> culprit. Had similar results when the engines were switched to Detergent
> oil. Godawful mess inside.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 5:14 PM Ken Henderson via Gmclist <

>
>> The comment about using Quaker State oil reminded me of an experience back
>> in about '75. As a USAF R&D manager, I had a young physics PhD working for
>> me. He had a whole herd of kids that he hauled around in a 10 yr or so old
>> Chevy station wagon with about 200,000 miles on it. He was almost as proud
>> of that wagon as he was those kids, but knew nothing about mechanical
>> stuff. One day he called me in a panic: "I had the oil changed in my car
>> a few days ago and now the dipstick looks like it's covered in tar and the
>> engine's making funny noises!" When I got to his house and pulled the
>> dipstick, he was right -- the darned thing DID look covered in tar, and the
>> engine clattered something awful. Rebuild time, obviously.
>>
>> I don't know whether I knew before or it came out in the discussion, but
>> he'd ALWAYS used straight 30W Quaker State oil in that engine. But with
>> the modern fad being detergent oils, he'd told the oil change shop to put
>> some in there. Since he was really in no financial position to have the
>> engine rebuilt, I suggested he have the oil changed again and go back to
>> the 30W QS. After about a week, the engine was running great again, with a
>> clean dipstick! Oh yeah, when one looked in the caps on the rocker covers,
>> there was just a big black gob of carbon on EVERYTHING! I've never used
>> ANY Quaker State oil since then.
>>
>> One of life's lessons... :-)
>>
>> Ken H.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:14 PM Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist <

>>
>>> Valid point. As far as I know you have to not keep the engine at
>> constant
>>> RPM for too long during first couple hundred miles. I like the idea of
>>> the magnet on the oil filter. I cut open filters at oil changes and
>> check
>>> how everything looks in there. Would be interesting to see what kind of
>>> goop magnet will attract out of the oil during the breaking oil change.
>>> I ran 5x30 Quaker state oil on this engine. Had served me well so far.
>>> --
>>> Vadim Jitkov
>>> '76 Glenbrook 26'
>>> Pullman, WA
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Do all respect, if your going your going to rebuild an engine you should
have done few with someone arounder er to guide you.
There is lot to assembly that book never address.
Good luck

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 6:29 PM Douglas Smith via Gmclist <

> In the late 60’s I bought a ’47 Plymouth 2-seater coupe, cherry, from the
> original owner. Being young and “smart” I immediately changed the oil to a
> good multi-grade detergent oil. On my way to my girlfriends farm after the
> oil change it cooked the valve train due to a wad of crap in an oil
> gallery. I was saved when her dad came and towed it to the farm and sent me
> home after the weekend. To my amazement, a week later they called and said
> it was fixed. Turns out they had just ordered a short block from the local
> Sears outlet and installed it. Total cost to me, $250. After the exact same
> thing happened to me to a ’67 Buick LeSabre (minus the cheap fix) I swore
> off non-detergent oil. Not much useful information for this forum, but
> maybe another reminder that your oil carries away an astounding amount of
> crap you don’t want and an oil change is an easy trip to the engine
> laundromat.
>
> Douglas & Virginia Smith
> dsmithy18 at gmail
> Lincoln Nebraska
> ’73 “Canyonlands” since ‘95: “Wanabizo”, Anishinabe Indian for “He gets
> lost driving” Yes, really.
> Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3;70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Sundry
> other
> P&W PT6, no wait, that's the wish list...
>
> > On Feb 20, 2020, at 7:34 PM, James Hupy via Gmclist <

> >
> > When we disassembled the 272 -292 - 312 Ford Y blocks, they were full of
> > sludge if they were on ND oils. Quaker State and Pennzoil were often the
> > culprit. Had similar results when the engines were switched to Detergent
> > oil. Godawful mess inside.
> > Jim Hupy
> > Salem, Oregon
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 5:14 PM Ken Henderson via Gmclist <

> >
> >> The comment about using Quaker State oil reminded me of an experience
> back
> >> in about '75. As a USAF R&D manager, I had a young physics PhD working
> for
> >> me. He had a whole herd of kids that he hauled around in a 10 yr or so
> old
> >> Chevy station wagon with about 200,000 miles on it. He was almost as
> proud
> >> of that wagon as he was those kids, but knew nothing about mechanical
> >> stuff. One day he called me in a panic: "I had the oil changed in my
> car
> >> a few days ago and now the dipstick looks like it's covered in tar and
> the
> >> engine's making funny noises!" When I got to his house and pulled the
> >> dipstick, he was right -- the darned thing DID look covered in tar, and
> the
> >> engine clattered something awful. Rebuild time, obviously.
> >>
> >> I don't know whether I knew before or it came out in the discussion, but
> >> he'd ALWAYS used straight 30W Quaker State oil in that engine. But with
> >> the modern fad being detergent oils, he'd told the oil change shop to
> put
> >> some in there. Since he was really in no financial position to have the
> >> engine rebuilt, I suggested he have the oil changed again and go back to
> >> the 30W QS. After about a week, the engine was running great again,
> with a
> >> clean dipstick! Oh yeah, when one looked in the caps on the rocker
> covers,
> >> there was just a big black gob of carbon on EVERYTHING! I've never used
> >> ANY Quaker State oil since then.
> >>
> >> One of life's lessons... :-)
> >>
> >> Ken H.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:14 PM Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist <

> >>
> >>> Valid point. As far as I know you have to not keep the engine at
> >> constant
> >>> RPM for too long during first couple hundred miles. I like the idea
> of
> >>> the magnet on the oil filter. I cut open filters at oil changes and
> >> check
> >>> how everything looks in there. Would be interesting to see what kind of
> >>> goop magnet will attract out of the oil during the breaking oil change.
> >>> I ran 5x30 Quaker state oil on this engine. Had served me well so far.
> >>> --
> >>> Vadim Jitkov
> >>> '76 Glenbrook 26'
> >>> Pullman, WA
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> GMCnet mailing list
> >>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
 
> When we disassembled the 272 -292 - 312 Ford Y blocks, they were full of
> sludge if they were on ND oils. Quaker State and Pennzoil were often the
> culprit. Had similar results when the engines were switched to Detergent
> oil. Godawful mess inside.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon

FYI: Quaker State and Penzoil were bought out by Shell a while back. Their oils are actually quite good now.

--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
 
Wow Vadim,

It sounds like you have a winner of a shop there. He is correct that the rod bearings take more abuse than do the mains, but I have never opened up
an engine that could not use new mains. Nice problem.

Do not oil the back side of any bearing shells. It is not needed and those shells need to be held by the iron behind them. I would not use a 5WXX as
a assembly lube only because the it will run off the bearing surfaces faster and you really don't need that. If you can't find a bottle of assembly
lube locally, get some chain saw bar oil. That is a "sticky" oil that will sort of stay where you put it.

As that engine has cam followers that are roller faced, there is no need for the high idle break in. You do want to oil everything that moves while
you are assembling, and as this is a distributorless engine (yes?) you can't drive the oil pump prior to first fire. If your shop guy has a pre-oil
set, borrow it. He will tell you all about using it, so I won't.

There will be a minimal break-in required, but for the first while, don't work the engine hard when it is cold. If you pay attention to you engine,
you will feel it "loosen up" at about 5 to seven running hours (with original mains, it could be less). The idle will steady and it will rev more
nicely. Then run her the way she likes...

Remember, if you have doubts or questions, this is the time to ask. Yes, you have access to an amazing experience base here. Take advantage of that.
If any body here doesn't care to help, all he has to do is not answer.

Me? I got where I am now by being lifted to shoulders of a lot of terrific people. I'll be paying that back for as long as I can.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Matt, you come through again with very helpful info. I was thinking that the back of the bearings should be dry, but just wanted to confirm. If my
questions sound too simple, please realize - my typical mode of operation is as follows: I'd rather ask something that sounds dumb instead of doing
something that actually IS dumb.
I was wondering what properties assembly lube has that make it different from regular engine running oils. You managed to answer that question before
I even asked it. Interesting suggestion on the chain bar oil.

10-4 on the initial break-in - take it easy, let it warm up and vary load (avoid heavy load).

JimK, I am not a professional engine builder or mechanic, but I've rebuilt a 4-cylinder motorcycle engine before, have done extensive work on an I-6
engine as well as sorts of repairs on engines, clutches and transmissions. The work on this engine just happens to be a little deeper and bigger than
I've experienced in the past. I'm in the new territory, but not all who wander are lost... I've never shied away from trying something new and this
is just what I needed to try. I'm just lining up all my ducks in the row to make sure I fully understand what needs to be done before I get going.

I don't have a luxury of having resources available to let other people do the work, so I have to rely on myself as much as possible. Additionally, I
live in a town that is while full of repair shops, only two mechanics have ever laid their hands on my Mitsubishi. Those are the only two people that
I trust with good quality of work. Yesterday I've added another person to that list - the machinist who is going to repair my block. The rest of
work I've always done myself. If I do it right, i get a little gold star. If I do it wrong - I got no one else to blame. I look at it as a pretty
good motivation to learn and do it right.

Quick note about oils. We all know that this is as sensitive subject as oil filters... We all have our preferences and swear by what works for us and
pretty readily dismiss what we firmly believe does not work. I used Quakerstate in my Mitsubishi for its entire life. There is not a drop of sludge
anywhere in that engine. At the same time, I use Gastrol or Mobil in my E30. That engine calls for 15x40 or 20x50 grade oils and those are the only
two brands that have that range in my local stores. Again - no sludge anywhere in that engine (225k). How do I know that? You have to check/adjust
valve lifter clearance on it every other oil change. GMC gets Mobil. When I was elbow deep in that vehicle and pulled transmission, I took out oil pan
for re-sealing. There was no sludge or goop anywhere in the pan. I think I'm good there too. All these oils do what they need to do in their
respective engines and they all turn out to be good quality oils.
--
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA
 
Vadim,
It comforts me to know you have delt with engines.
I learned a lot i grade school playing with Model airplane engines then to
my Mothers car in junior high.
I only regret that I did not spend time on math as 5 years at OU in
engineering was the most taxing time in my life.
There are various tools that O Riley and other rent out to help you.

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 7:31 PM Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist <

> Matt, you come through again with very helpful info. I was thinking that
> the back of the bearings should be dry, but just wanted to confirm. If my
> questions sound too simple, please realize - my typical mode of operation
> is as follows: I'd rather ask something that sounds dumb instead of doing
> something that actually IS dumb.
> I was wondering what properties assembly lube has that make it different
> from regular engine running oils. You managed to answer that question
> before
> I even asked it. Interesting suggestion on the chain bar oil.
>
> 10-4 on the initial break-in - take it easy, let it warm up and vary load
> (avoid heavy load).
>
> JimK, I am not a professional engine builder or mechanic, but I've rebuilt
> a 4-cylinder motorcycle engine before, have done extensive work on an I-6
> engine as well as sorts of repairs on engines, clutches and
> transmissions. The work on this engine just happens to be a little deeper
> and bigger than
> I've experienced in the past. I'm in the new territory, but not all who
> wander are lost... I've never shied away from trying something new and this
> is just what I needed to try. I'm just lining up all my ducks in the row
> to make sure I fully understand what needs to be done before I get going.
>
> I don't have a luxury of having resources available to let other people do
> the work, so I have to rely on myself as much as possible. Additionally, I
> live in a town that is while full of repair shops, only two mechanics have
> ever laid their hands on my Mitsubishi. Those are the only two people that
> I trust with good quality of work. Yesterday I've added another person to
> that list - the machinist who is going to repair my block. The rest of
> work I've always done myself. If I do it right, i get a little gold star.
> If I do it wrong - I got no one else to blame. I look at it as a pretty
> good motivation to learn and do it right.
>
>
> Quick note about oils. We all know that this is as sensitive subject as
> oil filters... We all have our preferences and swear by what works for us
> and
> pretty readily dismiss what we firmly believe does not work. I used
> Quakerstate in my Mitsubishi for its entire life. There is not a drop of
> sludge
> anywhere in that engine. At the same time, I use Gastrol or Mobil in my
> E30. That engine calls for 15x40 or 20x50 grade oils and those are the only
> two brands that have that range in my local stores. Again - no sludge
> anywhere in that engine (225k). How do I know that? You have to
> check/adjust
> valve lifter clearance on it every other oil change. GMC gets Mobil. When
> I was elbow deep in that vehicle and pulled transmission, I took out oil pan
> for re-sealing. There was no sludge or goop anywhere in the pan. I think
> I'm good there too. All these oils do what they need to do in their
> respective engines and they all turn out to be good quality oils.
> --
> Vadim Jitkov
> '76 Glenbrook 26'
> Pullman, WA
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
 
> Vadim,
> It comforts me to know you have delt with engines.
> I learned a lot i grade school playing with Model airplane engines then to
> my Mothers car in junior high.
> I only regret that I did not spend time on math as 5 years at OU in
> engineering was the most taxing time in my life.
> There are various tools that O Riley and other rent out to help you.

I wish I had more engineering education in my life besides DIY style learning by reading and doing stuff. It seems like many engineers are somewhat
OCD when it comes to procedures, tolerances and designs. I think I'd fit right in with that crowd :)
--
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA
 
I have seen good engineers, and not so good ones.
Absolutely the best ones that I have encountered in my career, were
those that worked several years in their chosen field, and then entered an
engineering school and worked their bottoms off, a lot of them working
while attending college to pay their own way. The degree was a road to
advancement in status and earning ability. Many of them were involved in
racing and hot rodding.
Some that I would equate to "college educated idiots" never worked in
their chosen fields before they got their degrees
This is not to say that all engineers fall into these two categories.
They don't. Many from both sides of the fence couldn't pour water out of
their boots, if the directions were printed on the soles. And some of the
sharpest techs I have encountered, never saw the inside of a college
classroom or lab. Just life, I guess.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020, 2:25 PM Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist <

> > Vadim,
> > It comforts me to know you have delt with engines.
> > I learned a lot i grade school playing with Model airplane engines then
> to
> > my Mothers car in junior high.
> > I only regret that I did not spend time on math as 5 years at OU in
> > engineering was the most taxing time in my life.
> > There are various tools that O Riley and other rent out to help you.
>
> I wish I had more engineering education in my life besides DIY style
> learning by reading and doing stuff. It seems like many engineers are
> somewhat
> OCD when it comes to procedures, tolerances and designs. I think I'd fit
> right in with that crowd :)
> --
> Vadim Jitkov
> '76 Glenbrook 26'
> Pullman, WA
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
I spent 7 years teaching new hires. The new hires came to us from all over the country with lots of different backgrounds. The went through a 68 day
course for training and evaluation. They one thing that was required to get hired was a college degree in something. As a group the worse ones were
engineer degree ones. The engineers with hands on experience usually did very well. The ones with solely book learning and usually more intelligence
did not make it. I ended up firing many very intelligent engineers. They just did not fit our requirements.

I also worked for a while at our plant locations / labs in Rochester, MN, Endicott, NY, and Lagaude, France with a lot of engineers. What amazed me
was to a man none of them understood when whole machine. They only understood the small piece that they worked on or designed.

It is like knowing how the oil pump or distributor worked, but not the cam or spark plugs on your GMC.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
With a Bachelor of General Education (majors in Math and Engineering and a
minor in Military Science) and BSEE and MSEE degrees, plus several
off-campus graduate courses, I've seen more than my share of the American
educational system -- at 6 different colleges. During all of those
courses, only two, a machine tools lab at GA Tech and an introductory EE
lab at CA State, Sacramento, even touched on actual hardware. And in the
EE lab, it fell my lot to explain the difference between a VOM and a VTVM
to the instructor -- a new EE PhD. All of the other classes were
"abstract" -- they were primarily mathematical, especially in the EE
classes, and really helped little to teach anyone about the "real world".
I especially remember the first EE class at Sacramento, taught by the Dean
of the department. He began explaining electrical terminology with
derivatives. I, at 33 years of age, a USAF Major, had no idea what he was
talking about, but wasn't afraid to ask: "What ever happened to E=IR?" --
Which I'd been using in hobby electronics for over 20 years. Thankfully,
he was not put off by my ignorance and explained the correlations between
our terminologies. But, from then on, only those mathematical terms were
used -- I don't know how the kids understood the markings on lab
instruments.

The point of all that personal history is that, despite my extensive
"classroom learning", I'm sure I knew more about actual electronics
hardware from my hobbies than I learned in school. I'm afraid the
educational system hasn't improved that situation in the past 30 years
either.

Teach your kids about the real world -- DON'T depend on their schools.
(That goes for moral and political matters too.)

Ken H.

On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 2:38 AM Ken Burton via Gmclist <

> I spent 7 years teaching new hires. The new hires came to us from all
> over the country with lots of different backgrounds. The went through a 68
> day
> course for training and evaluation. They one thing that was required to
> get hired was a college degree in something. As a group the worse ones were
> engineer degree ones. The engineers with hands on experience usually did
> very well. The ones with solely book learning and usually more intelligence
> did not make it. I ended up firing many very intelligent engineers. They
> just did not fit our requirements.
>
> I also worked for a while at our plant locations / labs in Rochester, MN,
> Endicott, NY, and Lagaude, France with a lot of engineers. What amazed me
> was to a man none of them understood when whole machine. They only
> understood the small piece that they worked on or designed.
>
> It is like knowing how the oil pump or distributor worked, but not the cam
> or spark plugs on your GMC.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
> I wish I had more engineering education in my life besides DIY style learning by reading and doing stuff. It seems like many engineers are
> somewhat OCD when it comes to procedures, tolerances and designs. I think I'd fit right in with that crowd :)

Vadim,

In the right circumstance, maybe. Many of those in engineering are very proud of their CV. They have little else to recommend them.

The three most brilliant people I worked with in new product development were educated as a meteorologist, an accountant, and an industrial engineer.
That last has very little actual engineering involvement, it is about making production work effectively. There is a man known well to this community
that has little engineering education and it is a good thing. If he had gone to an engineering school, all he would have learned is what he shouldn't
do. As it is, Dave Lenzi is one of the most brilliant creators I have ever known. GM recognized this and got him to teach there for a while.

With the tasks you are now about, there is no engineering education that would be of any value. Even if you went to a modern automotive trade school,
they cannot teach you how to be meticulous about your work and maintain strict attention to detail. You are literate, you can read a follow
instructions, you should know that this puts you ahead of most of those you might pay to do this work.

As to me, just so you know, I spent my young life on the east coast. We lived on a 13ton ketch most of that time and when were alongside it was a a
ship/boatyard. They were still building wood work boats then. When older, I went off to work on the water. That changed my focus. The captain or
pilot gets to steer, but the engineers get to play with all the neat machinery that makes the vessel go. I quickly learned that the guys that had the
best jobs had licenses. To get a license without a trade school is a lot of time, effort and energy. So, I got into a trade school that got me an
engineers license and degrees. That was OK until I wanted a family. So, I hunted up a shoreside job and ended up mostly doing engine work in
Detroit. When I was hiring engineers for the labs that I later ran, I looked for the ones with dirty and broken fingernails. That worked.

I still value the USCG licenses more the the diplomas.

Go to it guy. As said, if you have doubts or questions, you know where we are.....

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
I was President of a group that were instrumental in restoring a turn of
the last century schoolhouse. Once the fundraising and construction phases
were completed, the Group re-invented itself into a Management company to
oversee the daily operations of the Keizer Heritage Center as it is known
now. One of the long time board members was a structural engineer who cut
his teeth on the Alcan Highway, and later helped engineer many of the
overpasses and bridges used when the Interstate Highways were being
constructed. He engineered the foundations and intermediate floor in the
old school to allow for seismic upgrades, hvac and electrical ductwork,
etc. I was the project manager on the project, and worked very closely with
him on the upgrades.
He was older school than I am, and really knew his stuff. He used to
simply amaze me with the extent of his knowledge. Unfortunately,
alzheimer's disease has taken all that brilliance away, and he is in the
late stages of it. What a terrible thing to lose a great friend and all
that knowledge in the same package.
Jim Hupy, who lives each day like he may not get another one.
Salem, Oregon

On Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 11:46 AM Matt Colie via Gmclist <

> > I wish I had more engineering education in my life besides DIY style
> learning by reading and doing stuff. It seems like many engineers are
> > somewhat OCD when it comes to procedures, tolerances and designs. I
> think I'd fit right in with that crowd :)
>
> Vadim,
>
> In the right circumstance, maybe. Many of those in engineering are very
> proud of their CV. They have little else to recommend them.
>
> The three most brilliant people I worked with in new product development
> were educated as a meteorologist, an accountant, and an industrial
> engineer.
> That last has very little actual engineering involvement, it is about
> making production work effectively. There is a man known well to this
> community
> that has little engineering education and it is a good thing. If he had
> gone to an engineering school, all he would have learned is what he
> shouldn't
> do. As it is, Dave Lenzi is one of the most brilliant creators I have
> ever known. GM recognized this and got him to teach there for a while.
>
> With the tasks you are now about, there is no engineering education that
> would be of any value. Even if you went to a modern automotive trade
> school,
> they cannot teach you how to be meticulous about your work and maintain
> strict attention to detail. You are literate, you can read a follow
> instructions, you should know that this puts you ahead of most of those
> you might pay to do this work.
>
> As to me, just so you know, I spent my young life on the east coast. We
> lived on a 13ton ketch most of that time and when were alongside it was a a
> ship/boatyard. They were still building wood work boats then. When
> older, I went off to work on the water. That changed my focus. The
> captain or
> pilot gets to steer, but the engineers get to play with all the neat
> machinery that makes the vessel go. I quickly learned that the guys that
> had the
> best jobs had licenses. To get a license without a trade school is a lot
> of time, effort and energy. So, I got into a trade school that got me an
> engineers license and degrees. That was OK until I wanted a family. So,
> I hunted up a shoreside job and ended up mostly doing engine work in
> Detroit. When I was hiring engineers for the labs that I later ran, I
> looked for the ones with dirty and broken fingernails. That worked.
>
> I still value the USCG licenses more the the diplomas.
>
> Go to it guy. As said, if you have doubts or questions, you know where we
> are.....
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Jim,

I have a similar friend, the father of my son-in-law, a nationally
renowned otolaryngologist. One day during a delicate ear surgery he turned
the operation over to an assistant and never operated again. Now, about 8
years later, he still gets around well, and though almost 5 years older
than me, can still carry on a pretty normal conversation -- except that it
repeats every 5 minutes. And he may forget my name, though not my face.
It's sad to lose friends, and almost as sad to see them fade away. But to
put this in the context of this thread: He used to tell me almost every
time we met that he was very sorry that he could never pass on mechanical
skills to his two sons. Obviously, he couldn't OJT them in the operating
room, and his schedule and skills set didn't help much outside of that
sterile environment. So sad! At least I'm able to help the son who's now
in our family.

Ken H.

On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 7:32 PM James Hupy via Gmclist <

> I was President of a group that were instrumental in restoring a turn of
> the last century schoolhouse. Once the fundraising and construction phases
> were completed, the Group re-invented itself into a Management company to
> oversee the daily operations of the Keizer Heritage Center as it is known
> now. One of the long time board members was a structural engineer who cut
> his teeth on the Alcan Highway, and later helped engineer many of the
> overpasses and bridges used when the Interstate Highways were being
> constructed. He engineered the foundations and intermediate floor in the
> old school to allow for seismic upgrades, hvac and electrical ductwork,
> etc. I was the project manager on the project, and worked very closely with
> him on the upgrades.
> He was older school than I am, and really knew his stuff. He used to
> simply amaze me with the extent of his knowledge. Unfortunately,
> alzheimer's disease has taken all that brilliance away, and he is in the
> late stages of it. What a terrible thing to lose a great friend and all
> that knowledge in the same package.
> Jim Hupy, who lives each day like he may not get another one.
> Salem, Oregon
>
> On Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 11:46 AM Matt Colie via Gmclist <

>

> > > I wish I had more engineering education in my life besides DIY style
> > learning by reading and doing stuff. It seems like many engineers are
> > > somewhat OCD when it comes to procedures, tolerances and designs. I
> > think I'd fit right in with that crowd :)
> >
> > Vadim,
> >
> > In the right circumstance, maybe. Many of those in engineering are very
> > proud of their CV. They have little else to recommend them.
> >
> > The three most brilliant people I worked with in new product development
> > were educated as a meteorologist, an accountant, and an industrial
> > engineer.
> > That last has very little actual engineering involvement, it is about
> > making production work effectively. There is a man known well to this
> > community
> > that has little engineering education and it is a good thing. If he had
> > gone to an engineering school, all he would have learned is what he
> > shouldn't
> > do. As it is, Dave Lenzi is one of the most brilliant creators I have
> > ever known. GM recognized this and got him to teach there for a while.
> >
> > With the tasks you are now about, there is no engineering education that
> > would be of any value. Even if you went to a modern automotive trade
> > school,
> > they cannot teach you how to be meticulous about your work and maintain
> > strict attention to detail. You are literate, you can read a follow
> > instructions, you should know that this puts you ahead of most of those
> > you might pay to do this work.
> >
> > As to me, just so you know, I spent my young life on the east coast. We
> > lived on a 13ton ketch most of that time and when were alongside it was
> a a
> > ship/boatyard. They were still building wood work boats then. When
> > older, I went off to work on the water. That changed my focus. The
> > captain or
> > pilot gets to steer, but the engineers get to play with all the neat
> > machinery that makes the vessel go. I quickly learned that the guys that
> > had the
> > best jobs had licenses. To get a license without a trade school is a lot
> > of time, effort and energy. So, I got into a trade school that got me an
> > engineers license and degrees. That was OK until I wanted a family. So,
> > I hunted up a shoreside job and ended up mostly doing engine work in
> > Detroit. When I was hiring engineers for the labs that I later ran, I
> > looked for the ones with dirty and broken fingernails. That worked.
> >
> > I still value the USCG licenses more the the diplomas.
> >
> > Go to it guy. As said, if you have doubts or questions, you know where
> we
> > are.....
> >
> > Matt
> > --
> > Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> > Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> > OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> > SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
> Vadim,
>
> In the right circumstance, maybe. Many of those in engineering are very proud of their CV. They have little else to recommend them.
>
> The three most brilliant people I worked with in new product development were educated as a meteorologist, an accountant, and an industrial
> engineer. That last has very little actual engineering involvement, it is about making production work effectively. There is a man known well to
> this community that has little engineering education and it is a good thing. If he had gone to an engineering school, all he would have learned is
> what he shouldn't do. As it is, Dave Lenzi is one of the most brilliant creators I have ever known. GM recognized this and got him to teach there
> for a while.
>
> With the tasks you are now about, there is no engineering education that would be of any value. Even if you went to a modern automotive trade
> school, they cannot teach you how to be meticulous about your work and maintain strict attention to detail. You are literate, you can read a follow
> instructions, you should know that this puts you ahead of most of those you might pay to do this work.
>
> As to me, just so you know, I spent my young life on the east coast. We lived on a 13ton ketch most of that time and when were alongside it was a
> a ship/boatyard. They were still building wood work boats then. When older, I went off to work on the water. That changed my focus. The captain
> or pilot gets to steer, but the engineers get to play with all the neat machinery that makes the vessel go. I quickly learned that the guys that
> had the best jobs had licenses. To get a license without a trade school is a lot of time, effort and energy. So, I got into a trade school that
> got me an engineers license and degrees. That was OK until I wanted a family. So, I hunted up a shoreside job and ended up mostly doing engine
> work in Detroit. When I was hiring engineers for the labs that I later ran, I looked for the ones with dirty and broken fingernails. That worked.
>
> I still value the USCG licenses more the the diplomas.
>
> Go to it guy. As said, if you have doubts or questions, you know where we are.....
>
> Matt

I appreciate your vote of confidence. I'll keep you all updated once I get my block back and get cracking at it.
--
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA
 
A friend and mentor closed his consultancy and sold his equipment over the last of 2019. I asked him why retire and his answer was 'I casn't do the
math any more'. I hate to see it, but I understand... my memory isn't what it was. I have to think a bit to recall names and situations precisely.
A psychiatrist friend put dementia in perspective for me some time ago. He said there comes a point in the disease when the person is gone. At that
point, we care for the body, and occasionally see a flash of recognition but essentially we're keeping the shell comfortable.. it no longer has a
personality.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
 
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