S & J Engines in Spokane, WA

Hi Rob

I think Denny Allen was using someone in Spokane but I'm not sure who it
was. There seems to be a high concentration of engine builders there

http://motorworksengines.com/
http://www.rebuiltautoengines.com/
http://www.northwestengines.com/index.htm
http://advancedengines.com
http://www.ramengine.com/
https://www.sandjengines.com/

I looked through all my old emails but did not find any messages from Denny
with the rebuilder name.

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: [GMCnet] S & J Engines in Spokane, WA
>
> G'day,
>
> Anybody have any experience with S & J Engines in Spokane, WA?
>
> https://www.sandjengines.com
>
> Regards,
> Rob
 
I like Motor Works.
For a number of reasons.
#1 Run up on dyno.
#2 I sent them parts from out side supplier.
Not a problem with them.
Cam from Jim B, Rockers and double roller timing chain from Summit, push
rods from Mondello.
#3 Fast turn around.
Howard
Alpine CA
74 Canyon Lands

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mumert"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 15:33
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engines in Spokane, WA

> Hi Rob
>
> I think Denny Allen was using someone in Spokane but I'm not sure who it
> was. There seems to be a high concentration of engine builders there
>
> http://motorworksengines.com/
> http://www.rebuiltautoengines.com/
> http://www.northwestengines.com/index.htm
> http://advancedengines.com
> http://www.ramengine.com/
> https://www.sandjengines.com/
>
> I looked through all my old emails but did not find any messages from
> Denny
> with the rebuilder name.
>
> Dave
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> Subject: [GMCnet] S & J Engines in Spokane, WA
>>
>> G'day,
>>
>> Anybody have any experience with S & J Engines in Spokane, WA?
>>
>> https://www.sandjengines.com
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
Bob,

The GMCer that forwarded their website to me noted that their prices were very good.

I thought if they built good engines they could be added to this list:

Service Provider Recommendations List\

However, if they build crap who cares!

I have received one off net message advising that one guy had problems, S&J resolved them but it took up a lot of his time pulling
the engine in and out!

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob de Kruyff

403 and 455 marines for only about $1700
--
Bob
 
That engine sim machine is cool. Nice QA Method.
--
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
"The Escape Pod" A 77 Ex-Kingsley Featuring: Olds 455, Manny Power Drive, 3:21, Rockwell, Jim B QJET, Quadra bag. Still needs paint!

Photosite: Chrisc "It has Begun"
 
Lot of the shops will reuse the original cam and regrind, also the
lifters, Rocker arm stands and have seen whee they reused the old
pistons.
Some do not re machine the crank and connecting rods.
Our shop uses the smiler machine to run it to check the oil flow and pressure.

> Bob,
>
> The GMCer that forwarded their website to me noted that their prices were very good.
>
> I thought if they built good engines they could be added to this list:
>
> Service Provider Recommendations List\
>
> However, if they build crap who cares!
>
> I have received one off net message advising that one guy had problems, S&J resolved them but it took up a lot of his time pulling
> the engine in and out!
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob de Kruyff
>
> 403 and 455 marines for only about $1700
> --
> Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
 
Jim,

So a GMCer should verify that the shop they intend to use will:

1) Install a new cam
2) Install new lifters
3) Install new rocker arm stands
4) Install new pistons
5) Regrind the crank
6) Resize the rods

It is a good idea to run the engine for 20 minutes on a dyno to "break in the cam" but I don't understand what this means:

"Our shop uses the smiler machine to run it to check the oil flow and pressure."

Thanks for the tips!

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Kanomata

Lot of the shops will reuse the original cam and regrind, also the lifters, Rocker arm stands and have seen whee they reused the old
pistons. Some do not re machine the crank and connecting rods. Our shop uses the smiler machine to run it to check the oil flow and
pressure.

Jim
 
I agree on all but the rocker arm stands. If the stands are in good shape what is wrong with reusing them unless you are building a high reving motor.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
 
Rob, on flat tappet camshaft equipped engines, the materials that the cam
lobes and the lifter bases are manufactured from are not sufficiently
smooth to allow a happy marriage between them. The engineers try to select
the most compatible materials to manufacture them from, but they still need
to wear into each other. That is what a 2000 rpm 20 minute non stop engine
run will do. After that time, the oil and filter should be changed and
replaced with new oil and filter to get rid of all the material that has
worn away from those surfaces. I won't go into the zddp/truth vs myth
discussion, but when I do an engine, I always test run it on a stand. I
don't like oil leaks on a fresh engine after they are installed. It ruins
my attitude, which is none to great anyway most of the time. I also use a
product like GM EOS (engine oil supplement) which used to be furnished with
all GM camshaft/lifter packages when the factory was still supporting the
recall on their small block cams. (silent recall, they only fixed the ones
that the customer came back and complained about.) This product is always
added by me in the initial crankcase fill up. There are other similar
products on the market, most with MOS as the principal ingredient.
Molybedunum Disulphide or some derivitive of it. Comes under the trade name
of MolySlip, MolyKote, and several others. Good stuff for cam and lifter
break in. A number of engine assembly lubes also contain the stuff.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Rob Mueller wrote:

> Jim,
>
> So a GMCer should verify that the shop they intend to use will:
>
> 1) Install a new cam
> 2) Install new lifters
> 3) Install new rocker arm stands
> 4) Install new pistons
> 5) Regrind the crank
> 6) Resize the rods
>
> It is a good idea to run the engine for 20 minutes on a dyno to "break in
> the cam" but I don't understand what this means:
>
> "Our shop uses the smiler machine to run it to check the oil flow and
> pressure."
>
> Thanks for the tips!
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Kanomata
>
> Lot of the shops will reuse the original cam and regrind, also the
> lifters, Rocker arm stands and have seen whee they reused the old
> pistons. Some do not re machine the crank and connecting rods. Our shop
> uses the smiler machine to run it to check the oil flow and
> pressure.
>
> Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
 
Jim,

Thanks for your excellent explanation of why it is necessary to run the engine at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes.

Unfortunately I was not clear when I noted "I don't understand what this means."

I meant I did not understand what "Our shop uses the smiler machine to run it to check the oil flow and
pressure" meant.

Simply put what's a "smiler machine?"

Normally I can translate Kanomateze but that one's got me stumped! ;-)

BTW subsequent to all the problems that came up with the drop in ZDDP Comp Cams will Nitride a flat tappet cam to help prevent low
ZDDP problems, I haven't done my homework and checked to see if it is still necessary to do the "break in." Do you know off the top
of your head if it is?

Regards,
Rob M.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Monday, 30 January 2012 6:30 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engines in Spokane, WA

Rob, on flat tappet camshaft equipped engines, the materials that the cam
lobes and the lifter bases are manufactured from are not sufficiently
smooth to allow a happy marriage between them. The engineers try to select
the most compatible materials to manufacture them from, but they still need
to wear into each other. That is what a 2000 rpm 20 minute non stop engine
run will do. After that time, the oil and filter should be changed and
replaced with new oil and filter to get rid of all the material that has
worn away from those surfaces. I won't go into the zddp/truth vs myth
discussion, but when I do an engine, I always test run it on a stand. I
don't like oil leaks on a fresh engine after they are installed. It ruins
my attitude, which is none to great anyway most of the time. I also use a
product like GM EOS (engine oil supplement) which used to be furnished with
all GM camshaft/lifter packages when the factory was still supporting the
recall on their small block cams. (silent recall, they only fixed the ones
that the customer came back and complained about.) This product is always
added by me in the initial crankcase fill up. There are other similar
products on the market, most with MOS as the principal ingredient.
Molybedunum Disulphide or some derivitive of it. Comes under the trade name
of MolySlip, MolyKote, and several others. Good stuff for cam and lifter
break in. A number of engine assembly lubes also contain the stuff.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
 
Yes it is Rob. The lifters are not nitrided, only the cam lobes.

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Thanks for your excellent explanation of why it is necessary to run the
> engine at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes.
>
> Unfortunately I was not clear when I noted "I don't understand what this
> means."
>
> I meant I did not understand what "Our shop uses the smiler machine to run
> it to check the oil flow and
> pressure" meant.
>
> Simply put what's a "smiler machine?"
>
> Normally I can translate Kanomateze but that one's got me stumped! ;-)
>
> BTW subsequent to all the problems that came up with the drop in ZDDP Comp
> Cams will Nitride a flat tappet cam to help prevent low
> ZDDP problems, I haven't done my homework and checked to see if it is
> still necessary to do the "break in." Do you know off the top
> of your head if it is?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces [mailto:
> gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of James Hupy
> Sent: Monday, 30 January 2012 6:30 AM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engines in Spokane, WA
>
> Rob, on flat tappet camshaft equipped engines, the materials that the cam
> lobes and the lifter bases are manufactured from are not sufficiently
> smooth to allow a happy marriage between them. The engineers try to select
> the most compatible materials to manufacture them from, but they still need
> to wear into each other. That is what a 2000 rpm 20 minute non stop engine
> run will do. After that time, the oil and filter should be changed and
> replaced with new oil and filter to get rid of all the material that has
> worn away from those surfaces. I won't go into the zddp/truth vs myth
> discussion, but when I do an engine, I always test run it on a stand. I
> don't like oil leaks on a fresh engine after they are installed. It ruins
> my attitude, which is none to great anyway most of the time. I also use a
> product like GM EOS (engine oil supplement) which used to be furnished with
> all GM camshaft/lifter packages when the factory was still supporting the
> recall on their small block cams. (silent recall, they only fixed the ones
> that the customer came back and complained about.) This product is always
> added by me in the initial crankcase fill up. There are other similar
> products on the market, most with MOS as the principal ingredient.
> Molybedunum Disulphide or some derivitive of it. Comes under the trade name
> of MolySlip, MolyKote, and several others. Good stuff for cam and lifter
> break in. A number of engine assembly lubes also contain the stuff.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, OR
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
Fathom the hypocrisy of a nation where every citizen must prove they have
health insurance......but not everyone has to prove they're a citizen.
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
 
So why 2000 RPM? Why not just let it idle for 20 minutes when breaking it in??

>> Thanks for your excellent explanation of why it is necessary to run the
>> engine at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes.
>>

>> Rob M.

--
Gary and Diana Berry
73 CL Stretch in Wa.
 
> So why 2000 RPM? Why not just let it idle for 20 minutes when breaking it in??
> Gary and Diana Berry
> 73 CL Stretch in Wa.

Simply because idling is REAL tough on flat lifter valve trains. The speed is needed to pull the lubricating oil film (hydraulic wedge) under the lifter faces. Without that, they get trashed in short order. That is also why some paint the cam lobes with a MoS2 based lubricant during assembly.

GM used to have a validation test where they put a brand new engine on a running stand (not a building stand, it put the engines on mounts and has support equipment to run the engine) and let it idle for 50 hours (iirc) and that would do in a valve train with any manufacturing defect.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Rob, I think that is Kanomataspeak for "similar".
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Thanks for your excellent explanation of why it is necessary to run the
> engine at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes.
>
> Unfortunately I was not clear when I noted "I don't understand what this
> means."
>
> I meant I did not understand what "Our shop uses the smiler machine to run
> it to check the oil flow and
> pressure" meant.
>
> Simply put what's a "smiler machine?"
>
> Normally I can translate Kanomateze but that one's got me stumped! ;-)
>
> BTW subsequent to all the problems that came up with the drop in ZDDP Comp
> Cams will Nitride a flat tappet cam to help prevent low
> ZDDP problems, I haven't done my homework and checked to see if it is
> still necessary to do the "break in." Do you know off the top
> of your head if it is?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces [mailto:
> gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of James Hupy
> Sent: Monday, 30 January 2012 6:30 AM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engines in Spokane, WA
>
> Rob, on flat tappet camshaft equipped engines, the materials that the cam
> lobes and the lifter bases are manufactured from are not sufficiently
> smooth to allow a happy marriage between them. The engineers try to select
> the most compatible materials to manufacture them from, but they still need
> to wear into each other. That is what a 2000 rpm 20 minute non stop engine
> run will do. After that time, the oil and filter should be changed and
> replaced with new oil and filter to get rid of all the material that has
> worn away from those surfaces. I won't go into the zddp/truth vs myth
> discussion, but when I do an engine, I always test run it on a stand. I
> don't like oil leaks on a fresh engine after they are installed. It ruins
> my attitude, which is none to great anyway most of the time. I also use a
> product like GM EOS (engine oil supplement) which used to be furnished with
> all GM camshaft/lifter packages when the factory was still supporting the
> recall on their small block cams. (silent recall, they only fixed the ones
> that the customer came back and complained about.) This product is always
> added by me in the initial crankcase fill up. There are other similar
> products on the market, most with MOS as the principal ingredient.
> Molybedunum Disulphide or some derivitive of it. Comes under the trade name
> of MolySlip, MolyKote, and several others. Good stuff for cam and lifter
> break in. A number of engine assembly lubes also contain the stuff.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, OR
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
 
Never, ever do that. The break in for the lobes and lifters rely on splash
lube only and to achieve that, you have to spin that engine at around 2,000
- 2,300 rpm for 20 minutes. Anything less than that and your're guaranteed
to have problems.

> So why 2000 RPM? Why not just let it idle for 20 minutes when breaking it
> in??
>
>
>

> >> Thanks for your excellent explanation of why it is necessary to run the
> >> engine at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes.
> >>
>
> >> Rob M.
>
> --
> Gary and Diana Berry
> 73 CL Stretch in Wa.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
Fathom the hypocrisy of a nation where every citizen must prove they have
health insurance......but not everyone has to prove they're a citizen.
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
 
Not really on topic of engine shops in Spokane, but ....
re breaking in flat tappet cams and lifters. I believe in Smokey Yunick's book he says that considering what is going on at the interface of the cam lobe and the lifter, it's amazing ANY of them survive the break-in, but MOST actually do. This is a Real pain with a race engine with strong race valve springs. The break-in process usually requires being done with either light springs that will actually fit or if dual springs,with-out the inner and then take the valve train apart and reassemble with ALL the pieces, hoping not to drop a keeper into the egine. NOT FUN !!!
The metallurgy of the cam and lifter is REAL critical. What might seem intuitively the correct materials does'nt necessarily work.
Datsun 1200 race engines LOVED to eat brand new cams and lifters.

Although roller lifters eliminate the break-in problem, there are some new problems that can be created on a retro fit.
DAVE KING
 
I was trying to say that the unit in Spokane is used only to verify
certain things.
They also call it PIG and they can tell by the way the oil drips from
the slow rotation for the short period as to if other thing are in
line.
On my CAD 540, our machine shop observed excess oil dripping down, so
they checked it out and found that there was a small hole in the
casting that was spraying oil into the bore of a cylinder.
If I were to have run it that way, the rings could not have handled
all the excess oil and wold have developed a problem later.
They tried to fill the hole with a plug, but the casting there was too thin.
They ended up using the other block from my other 540 and rebuilt it.

>
>
> Not really on topic of engine shops in Spokane, but ....
> re breaking in flat tappet cams and lifters. I believe in Smokey Yunick's book he says that considering what is going on at the interface of the cam lobe and the lifter, it's amazing ANY of them survive the break-in, but MOST actually do. This is a Real pain with a race engine with strong race valve springs. The break-in process usually requires being done with either light springs that will actually fit or if dual springs,with-out the inner and then take the valve train apart and reassemble with ALL the pieces, hoping not to drop a keeper into the egine. NOT FUN !!!
> The metallurgy of the cam and lifter is REAL critical. What might seem intuitively the correct materials does'nt necessarily work.
> Datsun 1200 race engines LOVED to eat brand new cams and lifters.
>
> Although roller lifters eliminate the break-in problem, there are some new problems that can be created on a retro fit.
> DAVE KING
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
 
In the last 40 yrs or so, I've replaced lots of cams in rebuilds or just upgrading to a HP cam with headers....etc. Until I met this group, I never did a cam break-in....never heard of it. I'd start the motor and just let it idle for 20 minutes or so and look for leaks, loose belts, etc. Never had a cam failure. In every case I used STP on the cam and lifters during assembly...I wonder if that had anything to do with it. Maybe with today's oils (low ZDDP counts) it is more critical...or maybe I might be just lucky.

Don't get me wrong here...Now that I know about it, it makes perfect sense. NOW I do the 20 minute 2500rpm break-in. You put $$$$ and countless hours into a new motor, why chance it. JMHO


> Never, ever do that. The break in for the lobes and lifters rely on splash
> lube only and to achieve that, you have to spin that engine at around 2,000
> - 2,300 rpm for 20 minutes. Anything less than that and your're guaranteed
> to have problems.
>

>
> > So why 2000 RPM? Why not just let it idle for 20 minutes when breaking it
> > in??
> >
> >
> >

> > >> Thanks for your excellent explanation of why it is necessary to run the
> > >> engine at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes.
> > >>
> >
> > >> Rob M.
> >
> > --
> > Gary and Diana Berry
> > 73 CL Stretch in Wa.
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Fathom the hypocrisy of a nation where every citizen must prove they have
> health insurance......but not everyone has to prove they're a citizen.
> Steve Ferguson
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist


--
Larry :)
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
 
> In the last 40 yrs or so, I've replaced lots of cams in rebuilds or just upgrading to a HP cam with headers....etc. Until I met this group, I never did a cam break-in....never heard of it. I'd start the motor and just let it idle for 20 minutes or so and look for leaks, loose belts, etc. Never had a cam failure. In every case I used STP on the cam and lifters during assembly...I wonder if that had anything to do with it. Maybe with today's oils (low ZDDP counts) it is more critical...or maybe I might be just lucky.
>
> Don't get me wrong here...Now that I know about it, it makes perfect sense. NOW I do the 20 minute 2500rpm break-in. You put $$$$ and countless hours into a new motor, why chance it. JMHO

Larry,

The STP is what saved you.
All STP is/was (used to be) is a can of ZDDP and a calcium based anti-wear additive (CRS) and some viscosity improvers to make it look thick (high viscous - thixotropic) for marketing.

At the tail end of flat cam follower days, some aftermarket manufactures were shipping cams with all the lobs - sometimes the bearings too - painted with an MoS2 dry and hard bound (does easily rub off) coating to reduce warranty.

Having written such instructions in during my career, I can assure you that all the break-in is done inside of five minutes* but instructions would say twenty to be sure to get ten so when the ten gets cut short thing are still pretty well off.

* The exception here is to piston rings in some engines that really do require some time at or near full torque (high BMEP) to effectively seat the piston rings.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
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