Refrigerator Advice

> So, using a hypothetical number of 3 amps per hour to try and account for the losses my 100 aH battery is pretty well drained down 75%-80% after
> one day. Running my Onan 6k with the new Progressive Dynamics 45 AMP power converter would take roughly 2 hours to bring it back up? (Or am I
> missing something in the genset charging rate?)
The PD won't charge the batteries completely in only 2 hours. The voltage isn't high enough for long enough to do the job. You will get it back to 60%
maybe, then drain even farther the next day, run the genset long enough to get it back to 55%, and so on until the battery is toast.

It takes a lot of digesting because the author is long-winded and buries the gold pretty deep in his writing, but the second link I provided says that
a battery needs to be brought to WELL OVER 14 volts AND HELD THERE for a lot longer than any commercially available converter/charger will do. An RV
converter/charger will run at 13.6 volts or so for a bit then drop off to 13.2 long before the battery is charged. Some SOLAR CHARGE CONTROLLERS can
be reprogrammed from factory default to do the job. But an RV converter/charger ain't gonna do it. A converter/charger would need to run a couple of
days to completely charge a battery.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."
 
> I see there was a lot of good information pertaining to the electrical setup. I did not see anyone discuss the propane setup. I don't know if
> that is because it just does not perform well or if the original preference was leaning to electric? I too have been debating this issue and would
> like to boondock at times so I was leaning towards a 3-way fridge for most flexibility. Any thoughts pertaining to that?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
> 76 Eleganza II with electrical fridge now
There is no discussion of the propane fridge because it would unquestionably do the job. We are all trying to convey the potential difficulties of
going with an electric fridge.

Personally, my gut tells me to use propane to produce heat, and electricity to remove it. That's why the roof AC has a compressor instead of an
absorption refrigeration unit. But electricity is hard to store. By unit of energy, a propane tank stores hundreds of times as much energy as a lead
acid battery. So an incredibly inefficient absorption fridge can run way longer on a tank of propane than an incredibly efficient swing motor
compressor can run on the same size/weight of lead-acid battery bank. Just a little bit of electricity appropriately applied (like a couple of solar
panels and the right charge controller) can swing the equation in favor of the electric fridge. The Onan and a conventional converter/charger is NOT
the correct way to get that little bit of electricity back into the house battery bank. It won't get the voltage high enough to charge the battery in
an hour or three.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."
 
Tom,

he was asking about electric, so that is why the discussion went that way.

I tried for a few years to stick with my original Norcold, but it just was a battery drainer. I bought a used Dometic RM2652 and I will never look
back. My write up is here: http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/search?q=fridge

It took some searching to find the right deal on the fridge, but they show up time to time for sale. I have know a couple people who bought rebuilt
ones for $500.

with the propane fridge, it uses so little propane and electricity it is no longer any concern about boondocking. The new problem with the length of
time now I can Boondocking is no longer battery, it is now is my black tank capacity.

Palmerdad may find that an concern too. I have 2 kids and a wife and they can fill up the black tank in 24 hours.

--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
 
James,

Are you ready?? This is a real discussion of a successful case with all the numbers. So, tighten your seat belt and take notes. (I will be
available to answer questions when we are back along side.)

Our coach was born with a 3.5Ft 12/120 Nocold. It started to have problems. The first replacement Frigidaire 4.5 was installed with a 49$ 750/1500
watt inverter from Hazard Fright. It was a bust for lots of reasons and did not meet the labeled power requirement. It got us through that season
and part of the next. Also, little reefers need airflow up the sides and even after I did some modifications to the space, it was still a problem.
The power consumption was high for several reasons. One was the the Chinese cheated and it could never make load and temperature at the same time.
It was not an "Energy Star".

The inverter was mounted very close to the house bank. It still frequently complained at compressor start. I had a 3.5DC display on the house bank,
and it confirmed the bank sag on starting. It could kill the house bank in a day of dry parking at a July music festival. It also could not reliably
freeze two Tupperware ice trays in a day. (That is something the Nocold did do.) Mary did not like the way its doors worked, so that was just
another reason to look for a replacement.

Recharging the house bank was also less effective than I expected. We had a PD9145w/CW mounted in back in the electric space across from the head.
GMC 23s have the house bank in the right front (Forward Starboard) corner. I kept on checking things, but in retrospect, I was checking wrong. I
measured the output of the PD converter (14.4 as I requested)and never measured the actual charge current and only later measured the actual terminal
at the house bank. When I did, it was 13.5 and I shrugged it off. (It was right and that was one of my mistakes.) I never used to carry my current
probe in the coach. I often do now.

I had talked to the late Dan Greg about his Bogart Trimetric that monitors bank terminal and totalizes current and can provide a state of charge as
percent. If you do not have one of these put one in the budget. There are others now that are just as good.

When the situation arose again, I paid more attention. It turned out that the best that the 9145 could do was about 27 amps to a half shot house bank
and it tapered down from there. We were forced to run the Onan most of the stay. This was not what I had in mind.

Now I did two things. I started looking for what copper I would need to get near the 45 that the PD should do as I now knew that was part of the
problem. After I had filled a spreadsheet with numbers, I knew I could do it if A: I could afford to buy the copper and B: The coach could carry the
weight of all that copper. That was not about to happen. I already had an AC line from the inverter to the reefer. So, I got some more boat romex
(stranded) and ran another AC line from the panel to the house bank corner for the new converter location. I got a PD9260 to put at the passengers
right ankle. The 9260 is about an inch shorter than a 9145 so that helped that choice.

We went reefer shopping again. This time she found a two door 3.5 that was "Energy Star" (also tagged Frigidaire). ES ratings have to be confirmed
by testing to standards. This one is real close the the tag rating, even on the CCV (Cheap Chinese Version) inverter with its modified square wave
output. I had the opportunity to borrow an high buck pure sine inverter. There was a difference, but I don't think it was a 250$us difference. The
compressor starts a little better (subjective) and runs a few (like 10°F) cooler at pump down (getting it cold) much the same as it does on line or
APU power.

This is how it has been run for the last six years. And, yes, this reefer will make ice overnight. It will also run on the house bank - a pair of
now seven year old GC2s - for a day and an half before I have to crank up the Onan and I get to watch it start charging at 58Amps. It still take
about 2-1/2~3 hours to get to 90% SOC. the 9260 will want to set back about there, but that 90% will be good for ~30 hours even if we are making ice.

We sold the first reefer on Craig's list and didn't take too bad a beating. But now think, the second reefer and the inverter together cost just a
little over 200$. Compare that to any other choice that is not 120VAC.

There are other changes that I had to make that I will not include was most were personal desires.

--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
Now with both true Keyless and remote entry
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
My real world experience with quality battery monitors in both our coaches =
is a bit different from the conventionally accepted wisdom. Two to three h=
ours per day of running the Onan and charging with a PD three stage smart c=
harger (or equivalent) is enough to recharge a reasonable size house batter=
y bank (~200 or more amp hours) with normal daily draw use. It won=
=E2=80=99t bring one back from fully depleted in that amount of time, but i=
t will keep you going way longer than your water and holding tanks will las=
t in normal dry camping use. The only way you are going to know for sure w=
ith your coach, your battery bank and your charger is to install and use a =
good quality battery monitor. Those come with an accurate shunt to directl=
y measure amps in and out of the battery bank over a given period of time. =
Such monitors cost $150 to $250. The cheap ones that just measure voltage=
or the $30 wonders with what passes for a shunt will not tell you much of =
value at all. It takes several charge/discharge cycles to calibrate the mo=
nitor to the real amp hour capacity of your battery bank. Do not rely on o=
r believe the battery manufacturers amp hour rating until you confirm it fo=
r yourself. There are way too many ways to game the rating system. He=
re are some real world estimates using the battery bank, charger and genera=
tor in our 77/94 Clasco that might be helpful. These come from the present=
ation at GMCWS at the October 2016 rally in Coos Bay, OR on how to run your=
Onan on either gasoline or propane at the flip of one toggle switch: =
The GMC finished coaches and the Royales have 62 pound propane tanks. Propa=
ne weighs 4.2 #/gal so a full tank will hold 14.8 gallons of propane if pro=
perly filled. The tanks are marked 20 gallons, but that is the capacity if =
they were filled with water. The tanks are designed to run less than 80% fu=
ll of propane. My 6kw Onan will consume 0.2 gallons of propane per hour wh=
ile generating 1kw. The consumption is quite linear all the way up to gene=
rating 4kw consuming a bit over 0.8 gallons per hour. I had no way to crea=
te a reliable load greater than 4kw so could not really test consumption at=
5 or 6KW but have no reason to believe it would be anything other than lin=
ear in that range, too. Normal battery charging (batteries discharged =
to no less than 50%) takes 40 to 50 amps DC initially but tapers down to 10=
-20 amps DC. That averages around 3-4 amps AC, or less than 1kw. So, an av=
erage 3 hour battery charge will consume less than 0.6 gallons of propane p=
er day. Running one typical roof air conditioner will take less than 2kw. S=
tarting will take nearly twice that but only for a short time. If the air c=
onditioner draws 8.3 amps at 120vac it will consume 1kw, if 16.6 amps, 2kw.=
Running at an output of 1kw a full tank of propane will run the Onan =
for 74 hours. Running at 2kw a full tank will run the Onan for 37.5 hours.=
The way we live in the Clasco (showers every day, no anal water conservat=
ion, etc.), a full water tank and empty black/gray tank will serve us for a=
bout three days. Two days if we are really sloppy with water use and maybe=
four days if we really try. The Royale with its separate black and gray t=
anks will go about a day longer in most cases if we are able to drain gray =
water safely or pump it into the black tank when necessary. Heating wa=
ter from cold in the electric only hot water heater in the Clasco takes run=
ning the Onan for about 15 to as much as 25 minutes - more the time it take=
s to make the morning coffee using an electric coffee pot. Heating water a=
nd cooling the refrig. in either coach on propane is hard to really measure=
because the draw is so low. The propane furnace will consume a lot of pro=
pane if it is really cold (those things in our coaches consume around 30,00=
0 to 40,000 btus per hour of operation) and a gallon of propane contains 96=
,000 btus. Hope this helps frame the discussion. Jerry Jerry Wo=
rk The Dovetail Joint Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1=
907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR glwork=
om http://jerrywork.com =
Message: 12 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:39:08 -0700 From: A. To: gmclist Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Refriger=
ator Advice Message-ID: Content-T=

017 16:19 > I see there was a lot of good information pertaining to the e=
lectrical setup. I did not see anyone discuss the propane setup. I don't =
know if > that is because it just does not perform well or if the origina=
l preference was leaning to electric? I too have been debating this issue =
and would > like to boondock at times so I was leaning towards a 3-way fr=
idge for most flexibility. Any thoughts pertaining to that? > > Thank=
s, > Tom > 76 Eleganza II with electrical fridge now There is no disc=
ussion of the propane fridge because it would unquestionably do the job. We=
are all trying to convey the potential difficulties of going with an ele=
ctric fridge. Personally, my gut tells me to use propane to produce he=
at, and electricity to remove it. That's why the roof AC has a compressor i=
nstead of an absorption refrigeration unit. But electricity is hard to st=
ore. By unit of energy, a propane tank stores hundreds of times as much ene=
rgy as a lead acid battery. So an incredibly inefficient absorption fridg=
e can run way longer on a tank of propane than an incredibly efficient swin=
g motor compressor can run on the same size/weight of lead-acid battery b=
ank. Just a little bit of electricity appropriately applied (like a couple =
of solar panels and the right charge controller) can swing the equation i=
n favor of the electric fridge. The Onan and a conventional converter/charg=
er is NOT the correct way to get that little bit of electricity back into=
the house battery bank. It won't get the voltage high enough to charge the=
battery in an hour or three. -- 73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale 73 23' Cany=
onLands Parts Unit 4 Sale Upper Alabama "Highest price does not guarant=
ee highest quality.=E2=80=9D =
 
I’ll second what Matt has to say, except I have a little more battery (EV 6 Volt cells - think T105, but two inches taller, and 15 lbs heavier), and a Xantrex ProSine 2000, that will really charge them at 75 amps.

I get about two days out of the off brand energy star fridge. I have two computer fans that come on when the compressor runs (those fridges use the sides for heat dissipation).

I’m also using 4 gauge welding cable to run the power around to the Inverter/Charger, which is located behind the fridge, and right below the on demand hot water heater. It’s protected for the leak that will happen.

There’s enough there to run the Coffee Maker, Microwave and the Fridge comfortably. Face it, what else do you need besides a cup of coffee, a bowl of ice cream, and warm left overs!

We use our coach generally for touring.

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
1-Ton, Sullybilt Bags, Reaction Arms, 3.70 LSD, Manny Transmission, EV-6010

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"
 
> Thanks everyone for the info. I understand that in the real world a lot depends on the use. I wonder if the energy star ratings account for some
> kind of "typical" days use opening the door and what not. IF I were to go this route what would be a good battery configuration. Right now the
> house has one 12v deep cycle battery which the PO had just installed.

Keep the battery that you have. If it goes dead too often, then look at higher capacity battery bank like two 6 volt golf cart batteries in series.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Alright, I read this entire thread before commenting.

Your plan to recharge the batteries at a high amperage rate in a few hours will not happen.

On a very low house battery(s) you may see an initial charge rate of 50 amps. But that rate will quickly drop off to 30 amps or less. As the
battery takes the charge, the rate will continue to drop until it gets to 2 or 3 amps at full charge. So you can charge the deep cell battery(s) with
a very large converter at 13.6 to 14.0 volts but the the battery(s) will only take what is wants. That is just the nature of Lead Acid batteries.

Inverter efficiency

I have always used the published numbers for inverter efficiency. On a runway light project I am working on, we determined that we have a load of
about 205 watts in LED bulbs. (I intend to measure it more accurately with a Kilowatt the next time I'm on site.) Based on 200 watts of usage I
determined that we should use a 400 watt continuous load - 800 peak inverter.

Since this is a solar application, I am acutely aware of every little load and trying to keep it to a minimum. I measured the inverter consumption
of 3 different inverters with no load attached. They read .6 amps to .7 amps at all voltages from 11.0 to 13.8 .

Raising the voltage did not affect the current draw. So now I know the loss to at idle the inverter. 12.6 volts X .65 amps or 8 watts or less. Then
I threw 150 watts of resistance load on the inverter and measured the load with a Kilowatt and the input to the inverter with the bench supply that I
was using.

The kilowatt said I as consuming 141 watts while the input was 12.6 at 11.76 amps or 148 watts at 37% of load. I increased the load to 250 watts and
the numbers came out the same (7 to 8 watts loss).

Huh? This says that the inverter loss was static (the same) at no load and at 37% and 63% of rated capacity. I did not test any higher loads. I
have always seen inverter losses rated in percent of load. In the case of these three modified sine wave inverters (two brands) that does not appear
to be the case.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Quote:
> A Hamilto
>
> ..... the next day, run the genset long enough to get it back to 55%, and so on until the battery is toast.
>
> It takes a lot of digesting because the author is long-winded and buries the gold pretty deep in his writing, but the second link I provided says
> that a battery needs to be brought to WELL OVER 14 volts AND HELD THERE for a lot longer than any commercially available converter/charger will do.
> An RV converter/charger will run at 13.6 volts or so for a bit then drop off to 13.2 long before the battery is charged. Some SOLAR CHARGE
> CONTROLLERS can be reprogrammed from factory default to do the job. But an RV converter/charger ain't gonna do it. A converter/charger would need to
> run a couple of days to completely charge a battery.

Good Morning ;)

Yes that's why I installed as an extra that Chargebooster, it really gets 14,4 volts, or 14,7 for AGM, to the house batteries, even if the alternator
would only bring 12,7 volts, or less.

As I wrote before, and Matt and others confirmed it, use thick high quality wires!

As a very nice and handy extra I can recommend the Victron BM700 (series) Battery Monitor.
Installed correctly you get a ton of extra helpfull information about chargestatus, (charge)voltage, Amps that are charging or drained etc ...
It even commes with a seperate Bluetooth module so you can see all the values at your iPhone or Androiddevice.
(In Mai there will be a new model from Victron with that BT-Module already included in the housing)

https://www.victronenergy.nl/upload/cache/1474270651_upload_products_555_1000-239_0_20160919093733.png

But as James wants to go for electric, and I can only second that, lets be honnest, propane is convinient for longer stays, boondocking etcetera ....
BUT: You are producing heat to making something colder ...
Effectually you use 10 times more energy to accomplish that.
Furtheron, an absorption fridge has to be good levelled, otherwise its fluid-stream can come to a halt, so it does not cool anymoore, overheating,
cristalisation and getting clugged up, and sometimes a flipping upsidedown can revive that fridge, but often you end up with a dead fridge and
repairing costs 500$ or more, buying a new one even much more ...
Dometic says, sideways, max of 3 degrees and for/backwards max of 6 degrees, and that are the real limits.
The compressor fridges handels upto max of 30 Degrees!!

Then working at outside temps in the higher values, 80-90 degrees, it comes to its limits and will not cool that effectivly anymore.
The compressor household fridge will be able to cool things down at an exterior temp of 90 without a problem. Freezercompartment is much colder and
freezes thoose icecubes much quicker. Opening the door of an absorption fridge during high summertemps, often will make it for the fridge, much more
difficult to stay cool, then the compressor fridge ...
The 12v CRX serie of Dometic/Waeco works at 110 degrees outside temp, so it is capable for tropical regions.

The way with a compressor based fridge is much, much more energy sufficient, a Danfoss or Engel compressor is state of the art and there are
householdfridges with invertercompressor that are so enerysavers, it is wonderfull to observe ;)
But then I recommend a true-sinus inverter, for optimum functioning

Basicly the problem in our MH's is only the available electricity.
Lets take the several situations and look at them:

At home, you plugged in, to pre-chill your fridge, or keep it running ............ No Problem here, either with 12v or 110/120v Fridge ...
Starting your engine ... your on your way ... No problem, the alternator runs and tops off the batteries and feeds without a problem your fridge.
Reststop, McD, Walmart etc for some hours ... No problem, if you drive again, alternator can charge the batteries.
Stopping at campsite with hookup ... No Problem ... ;)
Overnight parking. Boondocking, there's where you have to calculate, how long and at what chargestate is your housebatterie, this applies to both 12v
and householdfridge, with its feed from a inverter. Its all in the numbers.

Where do you get electricity?
Hooked up, through your charger and batterie for the 12 volts Fridge, direct for the 110/120v Fridge.
Driving, through your alternator, going through your batteries, direct for the 12v Fridge, indirect, through the inverter for the household fridge.
Standing still, rest, shopping, boondocking etc... only your housebatteries are the source of electricity ...

BUT ... you can help them, by:
Stocking up your battery capacity, perhaps two 6 volts Golfcart 235 AMPs bats ...
Adding solarpanel(s) and a controller for them, connect it to those poor batteries ;)
Running the generator, from time to time, and perhaps adding an extra charger ...
Buying a very expensive fuel cell, like the: EFOY fuel cells, for off-grid power supplies,
Using other then lead-accid based battery system, also very expensive, but super in use: the LiFeYPO4 battery (Winston).
They need special BMS-systems charging is more demanding, protecting them also, but if all of that is completed, you have a battery that is capable of
giving you 90% discharge without any problems, keeping the voltage at a very stable, high level and as an extra they are much more lighter then the
lead-accid batteries ... and yes, again, I know, they are much more expensive!! Still look at durabillity and the many more cycles they can give, and
it is a matter of doing your math ...

http://www.nothnagel-marine.de/index.php?cat=c289_LiFeYPO4-Einzelkomponenten-Sets.html&language=en

Sorry for this european link, but I am sure there are many US-Suppliers. I know of Advanced RV in Ohio I think how has experience with those Litiumion
bats. Also Pleasure Way uses them more and more in their new RV's.

To complete the whole, you could also use a marine-based wind generator, but then you need wind ;)
But it works well, iff you set it up the right way.
Last but not least ... ;) ... ;) ... take a bike, put it on a stand, mount the wheel against a roller and got you a cheap working alternator from the
junkyard, connect the cables ... and start pusshing those pedals ... ;) (Just kidding)

BTW. At a french campsite, there was an older french guy who had mounted a alternator through a water wheel, in a little stream nearby, and got
continious charge for his battery in his RV (He lived there the whole year)

James, all of it comes down to making choices, in your case, going so often to campsites with hookups, i would go to compressor fridge, either 12v or
110/120v household fridge. And for those few moments that you are longer boondocking, perhaps enlarge your battery, because those 100 amps you are
having now is allready too little, in my opinion.

Good luck with it !!

Daniel

--
Daniel Jacobs, No GMC, but an admirer of them .... We'll see what the future brings ....

Always remember, the world is full of nice people!
So, if you can't find one, be one!
 
Here photo's of the installed Votronic VCC 1212-45, which does a good job in charging the batteries while driving.
And has a Characteristic Line of Charging: IU1oU2

The most easy way to understand its function, is to compare it to a state of the art 110/120v Battery charger, but now the input is not 110/120v but
the available current from the alternator. And giving that alternator a lower chargelevel of the battery, by "fooling" it, and letting it still keep
charging, even if the starterbattery is full (and that mostly happens very fast) Controling and transforming those current and amps to a higher level
if necessary.
Info at: http://www.votronic.de/index.php/en/products2/series-vcc/standard-version/vcc-1212-45

http://members.ziggo.nl/d.w.jacobs/GMC/rsz_votronic_dsc00408.jpg

http://members.ziggo.nl/d.w.jacobs/GMC/rsz_votronic_dsc00412_stitch.jpg

As you can see I have two 12volts GEL batteries op each 80 AMP so the total is 160 AMPS (This was stock at this MH) In case they need replacement I
think I will change them in either Lead Crystal or LithiumIon batteries.

Daniel
--
Daniel Jacobs, No GMC, but an admirer of them .... We'll see what the future brings ....

Always remember, the world is full of nice people!
So, if you can't find one, be one!
 
I've had an Avanti 7.4 Cubic Ft fridge since about 2011. I put some photo's on the GMC photo site a couple of years ago.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6634-all-electric-fridge-by-avanti.html

Previously we had the OEM Norcold fridge. We liked the electric fridge because it would cool down fast and there was no fire danger. When it slowly
died, I looked at new 12VDC and propane fridges but they were really expensive . I paid $500 delivered here in Canada for the Avanti which was about
1/3 of the price of a new propane and 1/4 price of a 12VDC fridge.

I already had a 1500 watt Samlex Pure Sinewave inverter which handled the 600-700 watt starting with ease. Once running the inverter showed the
fridge was consuming 40-50 watts of power. The specs for the fridge said running power was approx 90 watts. The Inverter in our 77 Palm Beach is in
the electrical cabinet connected with (I believe) #4 gauge wire to the house battery.

This past summer I got a Vicron BMV-700 battery monitor. It has a shunt and voltage tap to measure the current and voltage going in and coming out of
the battery. This is a true measurement of the power required by the fridge and inverter. It shows the starting current at ~700 watts and running at
about 100-120 watts (depending on temperature and battery voltage).

http://www.thegmcrv.com/product/victron-energy-bmv-700-battery-monitor

I suspect the reason the Samlex Inverter was showing a low running power was that the power being consumed was about 7% of the inverter's rating. This
low power was at the edge of the circuit's designed measurement capabilities.

As for batteries, I find the batteries marketed to consumers these days are junk. We use alot of deep-cycle batteries for power backup at
communications sites. The Volunteer Fire Departments I serve can't afford the high end Telecom batteries, so we use comsumer/commercial deep-cycle
batteries. We now find the Interstate etc typically run only 60% of their rated power at new and fail within 3 years. Lately we have been using
Northstar batteries, Silver series. I installed a skid of NSB90 (90Amp/hr) Northstart batteries in 2013 and all of them still read over 100Amp/hr
capacity (last tested in Nov/2016). I had purchased 2 American made golf cart batteries at the same time. Last summer they were reading under
60Amp/hr so I replaced them with a single NorthStar 90Amp/hr from my 2013 purchase. It read 135 amp/hr when I installed it after sitting for 3 yrs
and getting a single charge cycle once per year.

It will run the fridge for not quite 24hrs. We rarely boondock.

I'm looking at upgrading to LiFePo batteries in the next couple of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

Just what I did.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
 
Way over thinking. Buy a Norcold made in USA 3 way RV frig.
120V at campground. Free. 12V going down road or briefly during fuel stops. Propane for extended stops or dry camping. It will run longer than the
expiration dates on the food on one tank of propane. The inverter efficiencies have been too generous in these discussions especially if not true sine
wave where you loose at the inverter and at load (refer) as far as efficiency.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
 
@John,

James wants a compressor fridge, but you are absolutly right, there are definnetly situations were a 3-way fridge is the best choise, and also
situations were a compressor fridge is the right choice.

All the things to be considered, like running time of grid, level of the coach, cooling capacity, removing the propanetank, etc, etc.
And of course what are you willing to pay for your solution.

If I rarely boondock like James does, and want a simple solution, getting rid of the propanetank, cooking with electricity and incidental heating with
a buddyheater or electricity .... Eventualy stocking up his battery capacity. Adding perhaps a little solar ...

We boondock al lot and still having no problem, but then we mostly drive every day some miles, sometimes staying an extra day, but then during summer
also no problems (solar charging)

For me I did swap the 3-way out, sold it for a good price, added a few bucks and got me at a marineshop a very good deal on the Waeco, and since we
didden't use all that space in the big 3-way, this one is more then sufficiënt. At max it consumes, less than 3 amps/hour !
This weekend, it was about 20-25 degrees F, ALDE heater running all day, temp inside the MH, about 66 degrees F, I saw a draw of 2-3 amps while the
fridge was running, and there were long times it did not needed to run. Draw in an hour 1-2 amps !! Total for all electra consumption 45 amps/24 hours
!
The CRX series is capable of running at lower speed, only if there is an higher surrounding temperatur, it draws max 5-6 amps, but not all the time.

@Jerry

Quote:
> Bottom line, at least for me, is you cannot beat propane for space heating, water heating and running the refer while dry camping in a GMC. In
> another presentation made at the GMCWS rally in Coos Bay, OR, in October of this year I also talked about running our Onan generators on propane, as
> well: http://www.gmcmi.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Feeding-the-Barbarian-Jerry-Work.pdf Once you make that switch you will never look back at
> things like home refers and massive battery banks because your Onan will start easily, run quieter and more smoothly, outlast you and the next
> several owners and have no more ugly exhaust smell so you can run it easily and as often as you need to to keep everything in your GMC running
> comfortably whether plugged into shore power or not.

For heating and cooking we still will be on the propane path ;)
So for everybody it comes down to making a choise whats best for them.

This combination of electric and propane use works great for us. Futheron we love the speed and cooling with higher temps, of the compressorfridge.

Thanks, Daniel
--
Daniel Jacobs, No GMC, but an admirer of them .... We'll see what the future brings ....

Always remember, the world is full of nice people!
So, if you can't find one, be one!
 
I have to disagree on efficiency of the propane fridge. I do not know how you can compare it to the electric fridge, but my GMC fridge never seems
to ever effect the level of propane in my coach. Have ran it a week on propane and not noticed any difference in my propane gauge. Only time I see
that go down, is when I run the furnace. The same with our propane fridge out at our hunting camp(old residential one). we do not change the 100
pound propane tank during the summer, only when we start running the heat.

as far as how long they take to cool down, I think the books are off on that, or they are talking about larger fridges then mine. It maybe takes a
couple of hours. I usually turn mine on, and fill it up. between the cold food and drinks, and the fridge starting to work, I do not notice it
ever not working.

I also have no issues with my fridge working when it is hot out. I leave my fridge on, and no A/C and it can be 110+ in the coach, and it keeps the
temps. If you are having problems with it not working on hot days, I would guess your installation is not per spec, and you do not have enough
venting out the roof.

as for running it level or not level, 3 degrees is alot. I think we have to drop the back 12" down before we are out starting to get out of spec.


https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl=26+ft+*+sin+3+degrees+in+ft

--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
 
No problem Jon, I fully agree with you, that they don't use that much propane, it was rather in terms of how much energy a cooling unit uses it
working as an absorption, or compression running fridge. Propane fridge uses about 7-10 times more energy to do the same.

But that is not the issue here.
And if you have a very big propanetank, I also would not see a difference if the fridge runs for a few days.
Fact is, little fridges uses up to 300 grams, the big ones up to 450 grams propane per 24 hours.

Also a fact is that the older propanefridges did a better job then the newer ones.
They tried to bring the propane consumption to much down, but that made the cooling capacity at higher temps, worse ...
And of course cleaning your propane fridge from time to time, doing the necessairy maintanance is a normal thing, many people forget.

But for both systems are pros and cons.
As for 12 volts or 110/120v household fridges.
We even can start arguing about the different brands, Dometic, Waeco, Norcold, etc ...

FWIIW, we all try to contribute in a solution for James, and I must admit, I also learn and hear things I did not know or was not aware of.
Thanks to you all for that ! Let that input comming ... :)

Daniel
--
Daniel Jacobs, No GMC, but an admirer of them .... We'll see what the future brings ....

Always remember, the world is full of nice people!
So, if you can't find one, be one!
 
> I have to disagree on efficiency of the propane fridge. I do not know how you can compare it to the electric fridge, but my GMC fridge never
> seems to ever effect the level of propane in my coach. ...
You are mostly correct that it is comparing apples and oranges to compare efficiency of propane fridge vs electric fridge.

The point was that a gallon of propane releases something like 91,000 BTUs of energy. The OEM 7.5 CF Norcold that came in GMCs in the '70s consumes
about 60W running. If it cycles on 50% of the time and off 50% of the time, that is 30 watt hours. 30 watt-hours is about 100 "BTUs". The OEM Norcold
would use 72000 "BTUs" a month. If your propane fridge uses less than 3/4 of a gallon in a month of continuous use, then energy consumption is the
same for both. I don't know how much propane a 3-way uses in a month, but I figured it was gallons, not fractions of a gallon.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."
 
So my conclusion after all of this is that an electric fridge will work for our uses.... EXCEPT for our 3-4 days in Yellowstone without hook ups. But
I don't really want to invest a great deal of money to get us set up just for those few days when most of our use will be on shore power.

So I'm trying to think outside of the box now for those several days. What if I bought a block of dry ice right before entering Yellowstone and stuck
it in the fridge? Perhaps that would maintain the temp in the fridge well enough that it wouldn't have to run as much and enable us to make it
through. Remember, I do have the genset and will be driving the GMC around the park every day as well.

Thoughts? Anyone ever tried this before? (Thanks for playing along with all of my hypothetical questions!)
--
-James Palmer, Traverse City, MI
1976 Eleganza
 
Hi James,

Not a bad idea, and since you drive around, it could work.
Perhaps if you stock up your battery ... Driving, battery and generator should work, adding your extra cold-buffer ... Good move, test it at home,
first.

I know the roads there since we did visit Yellowstone, last year, we stayed three days at the park, coming from Grand Teton .... Wonderfull trip!

BTW. Adding something more to this very interesting thread .... A 3-way fridge, running on propane still needs about 1 amp/hour of 12 volt, just for
the controlunit .... So my CRX-110 which needs at its max 2-3 Amps/hour .... Does no bad job at all ....

Daniel
--
Daniel Jacobs, No GMC, but an admirer of them .... We'll see what the future brings ....

Always remember, the world is full of nice people!
So, if you can't find one, be one!
 
Sorry forgot to tell ...

James, we stayed in Yellowstone at the Fishing Bridge RV Park, with our rental MH, last year.
They had electricity !!

We could easy drive from there to the different viewpoints.
Perhaps if you plan one day there, make a reservation and you will be on the safe side.

Daniel
--
Daniel Jacobs, No GMC, but an admirer of them .... We'll see what the future brings ....

Always remember, the world is full of nice people!
So, if you can't find one, be one!
 
I did the dry ice thing a couple times, a couple different ways(dry ice only, and dry ice and regular ice). I do not advise. It made the fridge
cooler, but did not last, or keep other ice from melting faster. It was not worth the hassle or cost. It may work for your freezer?? but what are
you trying to keep frozen during that time?

I would suggest that you just use regular ice, it is easy to come by, and very cheap. I used the drawers in my old norcold and just kept them filled
up with ice, and it really helped the battery consumption. YOu might not even need to run the fridge if you have good seals. You will find the
black tank will be filling fast. My wife and two daughters get only 1 shower when we camp, and I need to be dumping. They usually will use the
showers at the campsites.

Yellowstone is on the list with the GMC, I understand our coaches can be perfect to see the different parts of the park, I have read many great
traveling stories. Some bring a car, some rent a car, and others just use the motorhome as the car. Let us know what you do and how it works,
someday I will make that trek with mine.

--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Get your shine on at www.cruzingear.co
GMCMI Fall 2026 Rally

Share this page

Share this page
Top Bottom
Back