Refrigerant news

mark grady

New member
May 2, 1998
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I have been doing research on air conditioning in my spare time. All 5
minutes of it.

This is sort of a work in progress, and you'll need to decide for yourself
if there is info in this message that interests you. No warranty expressed
or implied, if you know what I mean.

Our first stop is at the EPA. There is quite a bit of material on this
subject and you may have to do some digging. Here's a start. If you are
using AOL, I don't know if you can see Adobe Acrobat files, but you can save
them and then open them after you get a viewer at www.adobe.com

EPA regs at www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/612frm4.pdf

This gives you the background on the EPA's rules. See also
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/macssubs.html
which you can see on the web and lists EPA approved substitutes.

This lead me to the home page below with info and several links of
www.autofrost.com which looked very promising.

If you're interested you can also do a search on R406a on the Internet and
pick up some discussions that George Gobel (the inventor of R406) had
regarding the
use of R406a.

He considers R406A a "drop-in" substitute, meaning no mods required.
EPA won't let him say that though. Look at his test results, particularly
with regard to oil compatibility.

One of the factors is that all of these substitutes are blends of other CFCs
and other similar stuff. So what that means is the EPA would like to ban
all of them too. But not just yet. They intend to allow these substitutes
to remain in production and available for as long as R12 stuff is around
(till 2009 if I remember).

At that time only R134a will be around (unless they discover some more good
stuff). As a result the auto manufacturers do not intend to use any of
these replacements but will stick with R134a. So availability will be
limited to just the replacement market (and to the licensed techs only) and
thus the stuff will probably be somewhat hard to locate.

I suggest that you call the toll free number to Monroe Air Tech (on the
Autofrost home page) and
find out about delivery and cost. I think that its about $10 a pound (from
what I know today) You only have to use 80% of the amount of R12 called for.

I have also found out that you can take a section 609 (automotive) test and
be certified to buy R406A. The study guide and the test are on the Internet
at http://www.epatest.com/. It will cost you $20 and you can buy one pound
cans of R406A.

The alternative, the MACS test is much more expensive. Testing probably
isn't for everyone, but I'll pass this info along as this group is very much
do-it-yourself.

I also picked up a catalog from Acme Air conditioning. They have some
evaporators that look promising for rear mounting. They have a web site, but
it's empty. I'll post what I've got on their stuff later this week....

Mark
 
For those of you who are thinking about getting Your section 609
Certification --- The study guides and tests are very simple
- -

I used IMACA (International Mobil Air Conditioning Association)
Ph 817 -338-1100) for my test and study guide -- had to wait to
receive the course by snail mail--

I like the idea of the online study guide and test.



===
Pete Papas-Daytona Beach--Land of Hard Beaches & Soft Women
. Home Phone- (904) 672-0571
.1973 GMC Painted Desert M/H---She's old..but sure is PRETTY
.1976 Bi-Centennial Iron Head Harley Davidson M/C
.1979 280ZX Datsun (First Production Year - 1 of only 1000)
.
.Home Page> http://members.tripod.com/~mehawk_ii/index.html
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
When Autofrost is used as a replacement for R12 the rubber a/c
hoses have to be changed to the barrier type because this
product has HCFC-22 in it's blend. It seems that R22 has the
capability of leaking thru the older non-barrier hoses used in
our couches.

I believe that products like FREEZONE and FREEZE12 (blended
products of HFC-134a and HCFC-142b have no such requirement -
and if memory serves me -- they are slightly more efficient than
R12.

===
Pete Papas-Daytona Beach--Land of Hard Beaches & Soft Women
. Home Phone- (904) 672-0571
.1973 GMC Painted Desert M/H---She's old..but sure is PRETTY
.1976 Bi-Centennial Iron Head Harley Davidson M/C
.1979 280ZX Datsun (First Production Year - 1 of only 1000)
.
.Home Page> http://members.tripod.com/~mehawk_ii/index.html
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
Pete --

You raise a point I didn't mention, but that is important since GMC lister's
may wish to use Autofrost in non GM applications.

The autofrost web site isn't real well organized, but if you click on the
Autofrost 406A link in the left frame, then scroll down to the bottom to the
link entitled Autofrost Compatibility issues, you'll find this info:

"There is a suspected seal compatibility problem with Autofrost (R-406A)
and Autofrost-X4 with York (automotive) compressors using Butyl rubber
seals..."

and this info, which you have pointed out:

"York, Tecumseh and the old Chrysler RV2 compressors were thought to
have a butyl rubber seal, however it has been discovered that these seal
kits were made of Buna-N rubber. It has been known for many years that
R-22 and Buna-N rubber are not compatible." R-22 is a component of 406A.

GM vehicles are also addressed:

"Four Seasons, Murray, and Everco have Neoprene and
they are dark blue in color. GM has used a black neoprene for several
years. These are available from GM dealers or AC Delco distributors.
There are also green O-rings known as HNBR...."

In any event, based on what I know and this information, the GMC motorhome
should not have any compatibility issues with 406A unless *non-neoprene*
O-rings have been installed during system maintenance.

The EPA requirement, however, is for barrier hoses on everything.

I am not aware that R-22 specifically requires barrier hoses.

Again, based only on what little I know, I do believe that 134A always
requires barrier style hoses to maintain system integrity.

With regard to performance, I think its caveat emptor. TCC, the mfg of
Freezone claims: "Freeze 12 will cool better than R-134a in most retrofit
applications." I think its a commonly accepted fact that 134a has higher
head pressure and poorer low speed cooling performance than R-12.

Of course claims are always free and easy from the mfgs. Autofrost claims:
"R-406A is easily 6-8F colder than R-12 in most GM type A/C systems."

By the way, I'm not pushing Autofrost over any other solution, and I don't
have a personal stake in any of this. I just felt that there was a need for
research into what's available and how GMCers who do-it-themselves can get
answers.

I also should have posted this url: http://www.aircondition.com which has
additional information on the subject of auto refrigerants.

Mark

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gmcmotorhome
> [mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]On Behalf Of hawk.ii...Pete
> Papas
> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 10:27 PM
> To: gmcmotorhome
> Subject: Re: GMC: Refrigerant news
>
>
>
> When Autofrost is used as a replacement for R12 the rubber a/c
> hoses have to be changed to the barrier type because this
> product has HCFC-22 in it's blend. It seems that R22 has the
> capability of leaking thru the older non-barrier hoses used in
> our couches.
>
> I believe that products like FREEZONE and FREEZE12 (blended
> products of HFC-134a and HCFC-142b have no such requirement -
> and if memory serves me -- they are slightly more efficient than
> R12.
>
> ===
> Pete Papas-Daytona Beach--Land of Hard Beaches & Soft Women
> . Home Phone- (904) 672-0571
> .1973 GMC Painted Desert M/H---She's old..but sure is PRETTY
> .1976 Bi-Centennial Iron Head Harley Davidson M/C
> .1979 280ZX Datsun (First Production Year - 1 of only 1000)
> .
> .Home Page> http://members.tripod.com/~mehawk_ii/index.html
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
 
I've been using AutoFrost in the coach since the summer of 1996, with the
original hoses without any problems!

Paul Bartz

From: Mark Grady [mailto:mgrady]
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 7:45 AM
Subject: RE: GMC: Refrigerant news

Pete-
You raise a point I didn't mention, but that is important since GMC lister's
may wish to use Autofrost in non GM applications.
The autofrost web site isn't real well organized, but if you click on the
Autofrost 406A link in the left frame, then scroll down to the bottom to the
link entitled Autofrost Compatibility issues, you'll find this info:
"There is a suspected seal compatibility problem with Autofrost (R-406A) and
Autofrost-X4 with York (automotive) compressors using Butyl rubber seals..."
and this info, which you have pointed out:
"York, Tecumseh and the old Chrysler RV2 compressors were thought to have a
butyl rubber seal, however it has been discovered that these seal kits were
made of Buna-N rubber. It has been known for many years that R-22 and Buna-N
rubber are not compatible." R-22 is a component of 406A.
GM vehicles are also addressed:
"Four Seasons, Murray, and Everco have Neoprene and they are dark blue in
color. GM has used a black neoprene for several years. These are available
from GM dealers or AC Delco distributors. There are also green O-rings
known as HNBR...."
In any event, based on what I know and this information, the GMC motorhome
should not have any compatibility issues with 406A unless *non-neoprene*
O-rings have been installed during system maintenance.
The EPA requirement, however, is for barrier hoses on everything.
I am not aware that R-22 specifically requires barrier hoses.
Again, based only on what little I know, I do believe that 134A always
requires barrier style hoses to maintain system integrity.
With regard to performance, I think its caveat emptor. TCC, the mfg of
Freezone claims: "Freeze 12 will cool better than R-134a in most retrofit
applications." I think its a commonly accepted fact that 134a has higher
head pressure and poorer low speed cooling performance than R-12.
Of course claims are always free and easy from the mfgs. Autofrost claims:
"R-406A is easily 6-8F colder than R-12 in most GM type A/C systems."
By the way, I'm not pushing Autofrost over any other solution, and I don't
have a personal stake in any of this. I just felt that there was a need for
research into what's available and how GMCers who do-it-themselves can get
answers.
I also should have posted this url: http://www.aircondition.com
http://www.aircondition.com which has additional information on the
subject of auto refrigerants.
From: owner-gmcmotorhome

[mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]
On Behalf Of
hawk.ii...Pete Papas
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: Refrigerant news
When Autofrost is used as a replacement for R12 the rubber a/c hoses have
to be changed to the barrier type because this product has HCFC-22 in it's
blend. It seems that R22 has the capability of leaking thru the older
non-barrier hoses used in our couches.
I believe that products like FREEZONE and FREEZE12 (blended products of
HFC-134a and HCFC-142b have no such requirement - and if memory serves
me-they are slightly more efficient than R12.
 
Mark, In the excellent and comprehensive GMC restoration checklist you
posted here some time back -- and through which I'm currently working my way
- -- you advised us to have our existing water pump refurbished at
Winterfeldt. Can you tell me how to contact them as I'm at that point of
the process?
And I'm finding that, so far at least, sending detailed sketches of the OEM
radiator to several rad firms has produced nothing in the way of a suggested
dimensional replacement. Are these folks just too lazy to look for what I
need or do I need to keep after them? Can anyone who has replaced the GMC
rad point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Dick 75 PB in Atlanta

>Pete --
>
>You raise a point I didn't mention, but that is important since GMC lister's
>may wish to use Autofrost in non GM applications.
>
>The autofrost web site isn't real well organized, but if you click on the
>Autofrost 406A link in the left frame, then scroll down to the bottom to the
>link entitled Autofrost Compatibility issues, you'll find this info:
>
>"There is a suspected seal compatibility problem with Autofrost (R-406A)
>and Autofrost-X4 with York (automotive) compressors using Butyl rubber
>seals..."
>
>and this info, which you have pointed out:
>
>"York, Tecumseh and the old Chrysler RV2 compressors were thought to
>have a butyl rubber seal, however it has been discovered that these seal
>kits were made of Buna-N rubber. It has been known for many years that
>R-22 and Buna-N rubber are not compatible." R-22 is a component of 406A.
>
>GM vehicles are also addressed:
>
>"Four Seasons, Murray, and Everco have Neoprene and
>they are dark blue in color. GM has used a black neoprene for several
>years. These are available from GM dealers or AC Delco distributors.
>There are also green O-rings known as HNBR...."
>
>In any event, based on what I know and this information, the GMC motorhome
>should not have any compatibility issues with 406A unless *non-neoprene*
>O-rings have been installed during system maintenance.
>
>The EPA requirement, however, is for barrier hoses on everything.
>
>I am not aware that R-22 specifically requires barrier hoses.
>
>Again, based only on what little I know, I do believe that 134A always
>requires barrier style hoses to maintain system integrity.
>
>With regard to performance, I think its caveat emptor. TCC, the mfg of
>Freezone claims: "Freeze 12 will cool better than R-134a in most retrofit
>applications." I think its a commonly accepted fact that 134a has higher
>head pressure and poorer low speed cooling performance than R-12.
>
>Of course claims are always free and easy from the mfgs. Autofrost claims:
>"R-406A is easily 6-8F colder than R-12 in most GM type A/C systems."
>
>By the way, I'm not pushing Autofrost over any other solution, and I don't
>have a personal stake in any of this. I just felt that there was a need for
>research into what's available and how GMCers who do-it-themselves can get
>answers.
>
>I also should have posted this url: http://www.aircondition.com which has
>additional information on the subject of auto refrigerants.
>
>Mark
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-gmcmotorhome
>> [mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]On Behalf Of hawk.ii...Pete
>> Papas
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 10:27 PM
>> To: gmcmotorhome
>> Subject: Re: GMC: Refrigerant news
>>
>>
>>
>> When Autofrost is used as a replacement for R12 the rubber a/c
>> hoses have to be changed to the barrier type because this
>> product has HCFC-22 in it's blend. It seems that R22 has the
>> capability of leaking thru the older non-barrier hoses used in
>> our couches.
>>
>> I believe that products like FREEZONE and FREEZE12 (blended
>> products of HFC-134a and HCFC-142b have no such requirement -
>> and if memory serves me -- they are slightly more efficient than
>> R12.
>>
>> ===
>> Pete Papas-Daytona Beach--Land of Hard Beaches & Soft Women
>> . Home Phone- (904) 672-0571
>> .1973 GMC Painted Desert M/H---She's old..but sure is PRETTY
>> .1976 Bi-Centennial Iron Head Harley Davidson M/C
>> .1979 280ZX Datsun (First Production Year - 1 of only 1000)
>> .
>> .Home Page> http://members.tripod.com/~mehawk_ii/index.html
>> _________________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>
 
> Mark, In the excellent and comprehensive GMC restoration checklist
> you posted here some time back -- and through which I'm currently
> working my way -- you advised us to have our existing water pump
> refurbished at Winterfeldt. Can you tell me how to contact them
> as I'm at that point of the process?

Daryl Winterfeldt 303-530-4995

> And I'm finding that, so far at least, sending detailed sketches
> of the OEM radiator to several rad firms has produced nothing in
> the way of a suggested dimensional replacement. Are these folks
> just too lazy to look for what I need or do I need to keep after
> them? Can anyone who has replaced the GMC rad point me in the
> right direction.

Dick, is your radiator too far gone to have it recored? IIRC, someone
posted here recently that Cinnabar has replacements now.

Patrick
 
>
>> Mark, In the excellent and comprehensive GMC restoration checklist
>> you posted here some time back -- and through which I'm currently
>> working my way -- you advised us to have our existing water pump
>> refurbished at Winterfeldt. Can you tell me how to contact them
>> as I'm at that point of the process?
>
>Daryl Winterfeldt 303-530-4995

Thanks. Will call him.

>> And I'm finding that, so far at least, sending detailed sketches
>> of the OEM radiator to several rad firms has produced nothing in
>> the way of a suggested dimensional replacement. Are these folks
>> just too lazy to look for what I need or do I need to keep after
>> them? Can anyone who has replaced the GMC rad point me in the
>> right direction.
>
>Dick, is your radiator too far gone to have it recored? IIRC, someone
>posted here recently that Cinnabar has replacements now.

Patrick, Recoring is looking better all the time as nobody seems interested
in looking for a comparable unit.
Thanks for the help.
Dick

Patrick
>