Rear Wheel Seal

B

Bruce Hart

Active member
Oct 18, 2011
1,414
6
38
Would like a little advice here. I am currently doing a brake job and replacing the four bearings and inner seals on
the four rear wheels. I have 9 Napa seals 21771 that interferers with a 1/4" dowel pin. I checked with all of the
parts stores in my area and all the seals interfered with the lip. In my bag of spare parts I have an original
seal #3857731 and it also interferes with the lip. The only difference that I see is the original seal's chamfer is
.060" wide where the Napa seal is .090" wide. If I remove .030" from the Napa seal would that give me the sufficient
clearance so the bearing won't rub and contaminate the bearing with metallic fillings from the seal.

I did a pre-test on the rear spindle with the Napa seal and could not see how the bearing could rub on the chamfer,
but the bearing was not under load either.
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
 
My understanding from Dave Lenzi with the rear seals, if you press them in flush with the hub the seal will be positioned too far inward and will not
seal on the axle. Do not press the seal all the way into the hub, leave it slightly proud of the hub and all is good.

It is the front seals that can touch the bearing and get metal filings into the bearings.

Check with Dave Lenzi to be sure this is correct.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
 
G'day,

Bruce is correct; at the GMCMI Convention in Elkhart I bought a tool from him for $40.00 which seats the seals at the proper depth.

Dave is a VERY busy man; you can contact him on eight 1 zero - 6 five 3 - three 9 zero 2 but keep that in mind and don't tie him up
with idle chit chat!

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Bruce Hislop
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 8:25 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Rear Wheel Seal

My understanding from Dave Lenzi with the rear seals, if you press them in flush with the hub the seal will be positioned too far
inward and will not seal on the axle. Do not press the seal all the way into the hub, leave it slightly proud of the hub and all is
good.

It is the front seals that can touch the bearing and get metal filings into the bearings.

Check with Dave Lenzi to be sure this is correct.

Bruce Hislop
 
Larry,

It's my understanding that the front wheel seal should be proud also -- but
I never found a spec. for it in a manual. When we did one here recently I
made a seating tool to set 0.040", and arbitrary amount which seemed
adequate. Do you know the correct setting?

I THINK I'd already made a tool for the rear seals; I'll have to hunt it up
and make sure it's set to your 0.060". If not, I'll chuck the disc back in
the lathe and correct it. What I'm a little concerned about there, though,
is whether the seal will then clear Manny's reaction arm torque box. So
many possible "gotcha's"! :-)

Ken H.

> Seal should stand "proud" about .060.
> --
>
 
Is the problem with the new seals the depth of the metal ring, or the shape
of the seal rubber? If the former, installing it proud should make no
difference. If the latter, would a thin spacer behind the spindle correct
any issue with the torque box?

Given that this spindle was used on two or three bazillion front ends, is
there a solution (besides lining up the aftermarket executives in front of
a firing squad) in the wider market?

Rick "this needs a better solution than looking for old stock" Denney

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 1:06 PM Ken Henderson
wrote:

> Larry,
>
> It's my understanding that the front wheel seal should be proud also -- but
> I never found a spec. for it in a manual. When we did one here recently I
> made a seating tool to set 0.040", and arbitrary amount which seemed
> adequate. Do you know the correct setting?
>
> I THINK I'd already made a tool for the rear seals; I'll have to hunt it up
> and make sure it's set to your 0.060". If not, I'll chuck the disc back in
> the lathe and correct it. What I'm a little concerned about there, though,
> is whether the seal will then clear Manny's reaction arm torque box. So
> many possible "gotcha's"! :-)
>
> Ken H.
>
>

>
> > Seal should stand "proud" about .060.
> > --
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
 
Rick, I don't know if you have ever tried to remove a spindle from a bogie
arm, but on some of them, my 20 ton hydraulic press won't do the job. They
are an interference fit in the bogie when new, and 40 years of rust don't
help matters. I have noticed that the shoulder for the seal surface varies
a bit on spindles that I have worked on, so that may be the difference, not
the placement of the seal. .020" shouldn't make much difference. I suspect
that bearing cages vary more than that between brands, and that could lead
to interference between the inner part of the seal and the cage.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> Is the problem with the new seals the depth of the metal ring, or the shape
> of the seal rubber? If the former, installing it proud should make no
> difference. If the latter, would a thin spacer behind the spindle correct
> any issue with the torque box?
>
> Given that this spindle was used on two or three bazillion front ends, is
> there a solution (besides lining up the aftermarket executives in front of
> a firing squad) in the wider market?
>
> Rick "this needs a better solution than looking for old stock" Denney
>
> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 1:06 PM Ken Henderson

>
> > Larry,
> >
> > It's my understanding that the front wheel seal should be proud also --
> but
> > I never found a spec. for it in a manual. When we did one here recently
> I
> > made a seating tool to set 0.040", and arbitrary amount which seemed
> > adequate. Do you know the correct setting?
> >
> > I THINK I'd already made a tool for the rear seals; I'll have to hunt it
> up
> > and make sure it's set to your 0.060". If not, I'll chuck the disc back
> in
> > the lathe and correct it. What I'm a little concerned about there,
> though,
> > is whether the seal will then clear Manny's reaction arm torque box. So
> > many possible "gotcha's"! :-)
> >
> > Ken H.
> >
> >

> >
> > > Seal should stand "proud" about .060.
> > > --
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> --
> Rick Denney
> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
removal isn't hard if you go at it right.
Remove the four bolts and nuts from the spindle
Thread the holes from the rear with (I believe) a 7/16" tap
Make a square steel plate 1/2", slightly larger than the spindle bolt pattern.
Drill four holes aligned with the ones you just threaded.
Drill a 5/8" hole centered on the plate
Weld a 9/16" nut to the hole
thread a 9/16 bolt through the plate and then the nut.
bolt the plate to the rear of the bogie
heat the bogie using a wide pattern torch. Have a beer or coffee while it heats
Use an impact wrench on the centered bolt to drive the spindle out of the bogie.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
I have a puller exactly like the one you described. I followed your
procedure up to the point of heating the bogie forging with a torch. That
is a big no no. The shop manual warns against using heat on suspension
components, and so did the General Motors Training Center that I attended.
But, if it is your coach, you assume the risk if you heat stuff. But, I
can't do that on customers coaches.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Oct 24, 2017 5:23 PM, "Johnny Bridges via Gmclist" <

> removal isn't hard if you go at it right.
> Remove the four bolts and nuts from the spindle
> Thread the holes from the rear with (I believe) a 7/16" tap
> Make a square steel plate 1/2", slightly larger than the spindle bolt
> pattern.
> Drill four holes aligned with the ones you just threaded.
> Drill a 5/8" hole centered on the plate
> Weld a 9/16" nut to the hole
> thread a 9/16 bolt through the plate and then the nut.
> bolt the plate to the rear of the bogie
> heat the bogie using a wide pattern torch. Have a beer or coffee while it
> heats
> Use an impact wrench on the centered bolt to drive the spindle out of the
> bogie.
>
> --johnny
> --
> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
> Larry,
>
> It's my understanding that the front wheel seal should be proud also -- but
> I never found a spec. for it in a manual. When we did one here recently I
> made a seating tool to set 0.040", and arbitrary amount which seemed
> adequate. Do you know the correct setting?
>
> I THINK I'd already made a tool for the rear seals; I'll have to hunt it up
> and make sure it's set to your 0.060". If not, I'll chuck the disc back in
> the lathe and correct it. What I'm a little concerned about there, though,
> is whether the seal will then clear Manny's reaction arm torque box. So
> many possible "gotcha's"! :)
>
> Ken H.
>
>

>
> > Seal should stand "proud" about .060.
> > --
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

Ken, I took that ".060 proud" off of the "set" tool that Dave makes. But still cannot remember what the setting is for the front seals. Betch-a Dave
knows...
--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
 
Can anyone send a picture of the seal setting tool and the installed seal?

Please.

Sent from my iPhone

>

>> Larry,
>>
>> It's my understanding that the front wheel seal should be proud also -- but
>> I never found a spec. for it in a manual. When we did one here recently I
>> made a seating tool to set 0.040", and arbitrary amount which seemed
>> adequate. Do you know the correct setting?
>>
>> I THINK I'd already made a tool for the rear seals; I'll have to hunt it up
>> and make sure it's set to your 0.060". If not, I'll chuck the disc back in
>> the lathe and correct it. What I'm a little concerned about there, though,
>> is whether the seal will then clear Manny's reaction arm torque box. So
>> many possible "gotcha's"! :)
>>
>> Ken H.
>>
>>

>>>
>>> Seal should stand "proud" about .060.
>>> --
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> Ken, I took that ".060 proud" off of the "set" tool that Dave makes. But still cannot remember what the setting is for the front seals. Betch-a Dave
> knows...
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Joh,

It would be nice to have the dimensions of both those seal installers
posted somewhere so we could turn our own. They're simple enough that even
I, with only GA Tech Machine Shop 101 in 1956 can make them ('tho' not
pretty like Dave's). :-)

Ken H.

> Ken,
>
> Dave Lenzi was nice enough to sell me the last rear seal installer tool he
> had on him at our work rally in august. He must of made more to sell to
> Rob.
>
> Dave also had a front seal installation tool as well. I did not get
> One of those.
>
>
> --
> Jon Roche
> 75 palm beach
> St. Cloud, MN
> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Ken,

Here you go:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/tools/p63852-front-wheel-bearing-seal-tool.html

I'll find the rear seal installer I bought from Dave at Elkhart and add it shortly.

BTW Dave gave me permission to publish this.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 1:55 AM
To: GMC Mail List
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Rear Wheel Seal

Joh,

It would be nice to have the dimensions of both those seal installers
posted somewhere so we could turn our own. They're simple enough that even
I, with only GA Tech Machine Shop 101 in 1956 can make them ('tho' not
pretty like Dave's). :-)

Ken H.
 
Lemme point out, warm. Not HOT. You could likely run hot water over it for ten or fifteen minutes and get the same result. I just warmed it in
hopes of making it easier to drive out.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
> Ken,
>
> Here you go:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/tools/p63852-front-wheel-bearing-seal-tool.html
>
> I'll find the rear seal installer I bought from Dave at Elkhart and add it shortly.
>
> BTW Dave gave me permission to publish this.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 1:55 AM
> To: GMC Mail List
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Rear Wheel Seal
>
> Joh,
>
> It would be nice to have the dimensions of both those seal installers
> posted somewhere so we could turn our own. They're simple enough that even
> I, with only GA Tech Machine Shop 101 in 1956 can make them ('tho' not
> pretty like Dave's). :)
>
> Ken H.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

So, if my math is correct, looks like the seal on the front stands "proud" about .065?
--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
 
Uhhh...... Larry. Would you accept .165" as a better choice?

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Larry"
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 11:25 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Rear Wheel Seal

>> Ken,
>>
>> Here you go:
>>
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/tools/p63852-front-wheel-bearing-seal-tool.html
>>
>> I'll find the rear seal installer I bought from Dave at Elkhart and add
>> it shortly.
>>
>> BTW Dave gave me permission to publish this.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>> The Pedantic Mechanic
>> Sydney, Australia
>> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Ken
>> Henderson
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 1:55 AM
>> To: GMC Mail List
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Rear Wheel Seal
>>
>> Joh,
>>
>> It would be nice to have the dimensions of both those seal installers
>> posted somewhere so we could turn our own. They're simple enough that
>> even
>> I, with only GA Tech Machine Shop 101 in 1956 can make them ('tho' not
>> pretty like Dave's). :)
>>
>> Ken H.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> So, if my math is correct, looks like the seal on the front stands "proud"
> about .065?
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Uh-oh! Looks like I'm in trouble!

Without a seal and hub to examine, it looks like Dave positions the seal
off of the bearing's race. It may be that the end results are similar, but
we approach the problem from different directions. The only one of his
dimensions I match is the 2.900". I believe that's the OD of the rubber
part of the seal, with the metal housing extending outward from there -- to
just beyond Dave's 3.080" diameter.

My tool positions the seal in relation to the knuckle; it's cut arbitrarily
deeply at the 2.900" diameter to clear the rubber (and anything else inside
the seal). A 3.100"-2.900" diameter ridge immediately outside there
catches the metal of the seal Another ridge 0.040" higher than that one
contacts the knuckle's machined surface to set the "proudness" of the
seal's metal.

Unless I'm mistaken, Dave's tool is intended to position the seal correctly
in relation to the bearing, regardless of anything else. Mine depends on
the sanctity of the design and construction of the components and merely
sets the seal at 0.040" proud of the hub.

Guess I'll have to find a seal to check out -- even though I now run the
1-Ton front suspension. :-(

Ken H.

> > Ken,
> >
> > Here you go:
> >
> > http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/tools/p63852-front-
> wheel-bearing-seal-tool.html
> >
> > I'll find the rear seal installer I bought from Dave at Elkhart and add
> it shortly.
> >
> > BTW Dave gave me permission to publish this.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rob M.
> > The Pedantic Mechanic
> > Sydney, Australia
> > AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> > USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> > USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Ken
> Henderson
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 1:55 AM
> > To: GMC Mail List
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Rear Wheel Seal
> >
> > Joh,
> >
> > It would be nice to have the dimensions of both those seal installers
> > posted somewhere so we could turn our own. They're simple enough that
> even
> > I, with only GA Tech Machine Shop 101 in 1956 can make them ('tho' not
> > pretty like Dave's). :)
> >
> > Ken H.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> So, if my math is correct, looks like the seal on the front stands "proud"
> about .065?
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Well, turns out we're circulating a bunch of false information again!
Here's the link I found at Mr. erf's site:

http://bdub.net/gmcmotorhome.info/front.html

Even there, there's a discrepancy with what Dave says here:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/3221/Dave_Lenzi_s_seal_tool.pdf

My tool sets the seal proud of the knuckle, which everyone seems to agree
is WRONG. Hopefully, we didn't do any damage to the one we (LB & I)
installed recently, because the seal fitted into the knuckle pretty easily;
it's probable that the CV pushed it on into place without damaging it.
Then again, we replaced it because the one removed was badly damaged --
perhaps from being installed proud??? :-(

Ken H.

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Ken Henderson
wrote:

> Larry,
>
> It's my understanding that the front wheel seal should be proud also --
> but I never found a spec. for it in a manual. When we did one here
> recently I made a seating tool to set 0.040", and arbitrary amount which
> seemed adequate. Do you know the correct setting?
>
> I THINK I'd already made a tool for the rear seals; I'll have to hunt it
> up and make sure it's set to your 0.060". If not, I'll chuck the disc back
> in the lathe and correct it. What I'm a little concerned about there,
> though, is whether the seal will then clear Manny's reaction arm torque
> box. So many possible "gotcha's"! :-)
>
> Ken H.
>
>

>
>> Seal should stand "proud" about .060.
>> --
>>
>
 
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