Quick Trip to the Florida Panhandle

Hal,

The whole thing does seem really weird, especially since there was no drama
at all -- I just suddenly got no motivation from the go pedal. It will be
interesting.

Ken

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 1:15 AM, Hal StClair
wrote:

> It seems that the carrier had to lock up some way. A broken tooth or
> something locking the ring gear between the case or the main shaft of the
> trans
> locking up from a catastrophic failure, but that seems improbable.
> Something had to try and stop the carrier while the wheels were still
> trying to
> move forward. Don't see how the spiders could have done that especially
> running straight.
> Hope the mystery will be solved without too much expense and work. Good
> luck Ken.
> Hal
> --
> 1977 Royale 101348,
>
> 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
>
> 1975 Eleganza II, 101230
>
> 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Looking at the photo of the chipped ring gear, the adjacent tooth to the top appears to be cracked. Without being able to see both sides of each tooth, and the those of the pinion, it is hard to determine what caused the damage.

I'm wondering if the whine was the pinion bearing starting to let go, shedding debris and ultimately a chunk large enough to jam the ring gear? Both the cracked & chipped teeth may have been damaged at the same time, provided a chunk was wedged between them.

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

>
> Hal,
>
> The whole thing does seem really weird, especially since there was no drama
> at all -- I just suddenly got no motivation from the go pedal. It will be
> interesting.
>
> Ken
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 1:15 AM, Hal StClair

>
>> It seems that the carrier had to lock up some way. A broken tooth or
>> something locking the ring gear between the case or the main shaft of the
>> trans
>> locking up from a catastrophic failure, but that seems improbable.
>> Something had to try and stop the carrier while the wheels were still
>> trying to
>> move forward. Don't see how the spiders could have done that especially
>> running straight.
>> Hope the mystery will be solved without too much expense and work. Good
>> luck Ken.
>> Hal
>> --
>> 1977 Royale 101348,
>>
>> 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
>>
>> 1975 Eleganza II, 101230
>>
>> 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
I'm about to go out and remove the FD. It's supported only by the cherry
picker, but I think I'm going to have to back off the bell housing bolts
and slide the transmission to the rear 1/2" or so to get it out. Seems my
custom Cad500 front mount interferes. That will require installing the
gantry and two hoists. :-((

More later.

Ken

> Looking at the photo of the chipped ring gear, the adjacent tooth to the
> top appears to be cracked. Without being able to see both sides of each
> tooth, and the those of the pinion, it is hard to determine what caused the
> damage.
>
> I'm wondering if the whine was the pinion bearing starting to let go,
> shedding debris and ultimately a chunk large enough to jam the ring gear?
> Both the cracked & chipped teeth may have been damaged at the same time,
> provided a chunk was wedged between them.
>
 
Ken,

Gary Kosier gave me a set of OEM Caddy 500 front motor mounts, would you post a photo of what interferes so I can see if they will
interfere as well?

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:01 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Quick Trip to the Florida Panhandle

I'm about to go out and remove the FD. It's supported only by the cherry
picker, but I think I'm going to have to back off the bell housing bolts
and slide the transmission to the rear 1/2" or so to get it out. Seems my
custom Cad500 front mount interferes. That will require installing the
gantry and two hoists. :-((

More later.

Ken

> Looking at the photo of the chipped ring gear, the adjacent tooth to the
> top appears to be cracked. Without being able to see both sides of each
> tooth, and the those of the pinion, it is hard to determine what caused the
> damage.
>
> I'm wondering if the whine was the pinion bearing starting to let go,
> shedding debris and ultimately a chunk large enough to jam the ring gear?
> Both the cracked & chipped teeth may have been damaged at the same time,
> provided a chunk was wedged between them.
>
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
One thing this tells me: the usual practice of ignoring the final drive is
risky. They don't fail often, but it's bad when they do.

I've been on borrowed time with mine. When we drained it, about a pint of
black syrup came out. Looking through the stub axle opening saw no evidence
of shiny metal--the other 3 pints were encrusted onto every surface.

Rick "new one on the way" Denney

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 6:02 AM Ken Henderson
wrote:

> I'm about to go out and remove the FD. It's supported only by the cherry
> picker, but I think I'm going to have to back off the bell housing bolts
> and slide the transmission to the rear 1/2" or so to get it out. Seems my
> custom Cad500 front mount interferes. That will require installing the
> gantry and two hoists. :-((
>
> More later.
>
> Ken
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
 
> Ken,
>
> Gary Kosier gave me a set of OEM Caddy 500 front motor mounts, would you post a photo of what interferes so I can see if they will
> interfere as well?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:01 PM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Quick Trip to the Florida Panhandle
>
> I'm about to go out and remove the FD. It's supported only by the cherry
> picker, but I think I'm going to have to back off the bell housing bolts
> and slide the transmission to the rear 1/2" or so to get it out. Seems my
> custom Cad500 front mount interferes. That will require installing the
> gantry and two hoists. :((
>
> More later.
>
> Ken
>
>

>
> > Looking at the photo of the chipped ring gear, the adjacent tooth to the
> > top appears to be cracked. Without being able to see both sides of each
> > tooth, and the those of the pinion, it is hard to determine what caused the
> > damage.
> >
> > I'm wondering if the whine was the pinion bearing starting to let go,
> > shedding debris and ultimately a chunk large enough to jam the ring gear?
> > Both the cracked & chipped teeth may have been damaged at the same time,
> > provided a chunk was wedged between them.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

I have a cad 500 and used the 68-72 front engine mount. I have found that the 500 must be slightly longer than the 455/403 in that to get the
trans/FD out, I have to unbolt the front mount from the frame and slide the engine forward 2" or so to get the trans to clear the flexplate and slide
down past the rear mount crossmember. Just my observation.
--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
 
Rob,

It's my custom mount that's giving the trouble:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/cad-500/p32488-060-cad-500-front-mount-w-olds-rubber.html

That said, I suspect the Cad mount will interfere similarly. I finally
managed to get past the obstruction (with a 3' crow bar). Part of my
problem is likely the fact that my FD support bracket won't allow it to
tilt forward enough to bypass the cross-chassis tie rod. I'm on lunch
break now after going for longer bolts to correct that problem. It WILL
come out this afternoon, even if I have to mount the gantry, etc., and
slide the 425 aft. :-)

Ken

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Rob Mueller
wrote:

> Ken,
>
> Gary Kosier gave me a set of OEM Caddy 500 front motor mounts, would you
> post a photo of what interferes so I can see if they will
> interfere as well?
>
 
That's for sure. I've always been very complacent about them -- never had
one fail in any vehicle. The CRV's had one change in its 130,000 miles,
and that because of a Honda custom fluid change requirement. The S-10 got
one at 100,000 miles because I replaced all of the wheel bearings --
probably needlessly.

I'm gonna pay more attention now.

Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com

> One thing this tells me: the usual practice of ignoring the final drive is
> risky. They don't fail often, but it's bad when they do.
>
> I've been on borrowed time with mine. When we drained it, about a pint of
> black syrup came out. Looking through the stub axle opening saw no evidence
> of shiny metal--the other 3 pints were encrusted onto every surface.
>
> Rick "new one on the way" Denney
>
 
Larry,

I was about to reply "I've never found that necessary". Then I remembered:
I've never R&R'd the transmission nor the Cad engine alone -- always as
the complete drive train. That REALLY makes me hope there's not
transmission damage this time. I'd been thinking, "Oh, if there's any
damage, I'll just go ahead & drop the transmission and put that Manny
rebuild setting there into it."

Thanks for the heads up -- might save me HOURS trying to figure it out.

Ken H.

> I have a cad 500 and used the 68-72 front engine mount. I have found that
> the 500 must be slightly longer than the 455/403 in that to get the
> trans/FD out, I have to unbolt the front mount from the frame and slide
> the engine forward 2" or so to get the trans to clear the flexplate and
> slide
> down past the rear mount crossmember. Just my observation.
> --
>
 
I had an original 3:07 fail at some where near 90,000 miles. Grinding and
gnashing sounds emenating from within. I pulled it, and found bad bearings
as well as ring and pinion wear. I had a spare final drive, so I just
ordered the 3:70 gear set from Jim K. I do have a home made case spreader,
so I swapped the gears out. The shims that I had were not quite right, so I
ordered a bunch from Cinnabar. Pricey stuff there, but, the only game in
town. Bearings I sourced local as we have an old line bearing house that
knows their stuff. The Toronado final drive differs from most G.M. carriers
in that it has no crush sleeve, or threaded carrier to allow in/out
adjustment of the pinion. You have to add/subtract shims to the pinion
cover to get it right. Same goes for moving the carrier side to side. Add
shims on the tight side, subtract the same amount on the other. Mesh is
verified with Prussian blue or white lead. Old School all the way. Time
prohibitive by today's labor rates. No dial gages needed here. But an
absolute bastard to get exactly right the first time. Seems to always have
some whine either on accell or decell if not spot on. I have 30,000+ on my
3:70 now. I have a temp gage on it, runs 200 degrees flat and level, a bit
higher climbing.
Jim Hupy

> Larry,
>
> I was about to reply "I've never found that necessary". Then I remembered:
> I've never R&R'd the transmission nor the Cad engine alone -- always as
> the complete drive train. That REALLY makes me hope there's not
> transmission damage this time. I'd been thinking, "Oh, if there's any
> damage, I'll just go ahead & drop the transmission and put that Manny
> rebuild setting there into it."
>
> Thanks for the heads up -- might save me HOURS trying to figure it out.
>
> Ken H.
>

>
> > I have a cad 500 and used the 68-72 front engine mount. I have found
> that
> > the 500 must be slightly longer than the 455/403 in that to get the
> > trans/FD out, I have to unbolt the front mount from the frame and slide
> > the engine forward 2" or so to get the trans to clear the flexplate and
> > slide
> > down past the rear mount crossmember. Just my observation.
> > --
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Ken,

The Kingsley I got from Kerry has a Caddy 500 in it and I have a Caddy 500 here in Sydney for the Avion.

I also have a 3.21 to 1 and a switch pitch trans in Sydney and Houston. I'm going to install them in both coaches as I believe the
Caddy will move them down the road quite well through the 3.21 to 1.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 2:45 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Quick Trip to the Florida Panhandle

Larry,

I was about to reply "I've never found that necessary". Then I remembered:
I've never R&R'd the transmission nor the Cad engine alone -- always as
the complete drive train. That REALLY makes me hope there's not
transmission damage this time. I'd been thinking, "Oh, if there's any
damage, I'll just go ahead & drop the transmission and put that Manny
rebuild setting there into it."

Thanks for the heads up -- might save me HOURS trying to figure it out.

Ken H.

> I have a cad 500 and used the 68-72 front engine mount. I have found that
> the 500 must be slightly longer than the 455/403 in that to get the
> trans/FD out, I have to unbolt the front mount from the frame and slide
> the engine forward 2" or so to get the trans to clear the flexplate and
> slide
> down past the rear mount crossmember. Just my observation.
> --
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Ken,

I've never removed the front mount bolts on my Cadillac.
I did juggle trannys around due to a dumb mistake on my
part. Last fall, Tom Hampton's tranny guy changed it again.
Never had to move the motor. Since the motor bolts to the
tranny exactly like the Olds does, why would anything be
any more difficult than removing it from an Olds?

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ken Henderson"
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 12:45 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Quick Trip to the Florida Panhandle

> Larry,
>
> I was about to reply "I've never found that necessary". Then I
> remembered:
> I've never R&R'd the transmission nor the Cad engine alone -- always as
> the complete drive train. That REALLY makes me hope there's not
> transmission damage this time. I'd been thinking, "Oh, if there's any
> damage, I'll just go ahead & drop the transmission and put that Manny
> rebuild setting there into it."
>
> Thanks for the heads up -- might save me HOURS trying to figure it out.
>
> Ken H.
>

>
>> I have a cad 500 and used the 68-72 front engine mount. I have found
>> that
>> the 500 must be slightly longer than the 455/403 in that to get the
>> trans/FD out, I have to unbolt the front mount from the frame and slide
>> the engine forward 2" or so to get the trans to clear the flexplate and
>> slide
>> down past the rear mount crossmember. Just my observation.
>> --
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Hallelujah!!! Not the final message after all, but getting closer: I got
the final drive out today. More trouble than expected because there were 4
studs rather than bolts and I didn't remove them before beginning the
"drop". Wound up having to remove 2 of them 10* at a time with little
vice-grips because they were too long to allow the FD to drop. Then, the
way I had the FD bolted to my support jig didn't allow it to rotate enough
to clear the cross-chassis tie rod. Had to go buy longer bolts and shim
the jig out to clear protrusions on the side of the FD. Then in came right
out.

The output shaft of the transmission and the input shaft of the FD appear
perfect so hopefully there's no transmission damage. The ring, pinon, and
output shafts all turn freely and without noticeable binding. The one big
tooth chunk and few smaller dings reported earlier, and shown in the
photos, appear to be the only damage; I can only see a tiny portion of the
spider gears, but they look OK. I've added a few photos. It may be
possible to see in them that the ring gear wear pattern looks "off" to me
-- mostly on the outer 2/3 of the teeth. And the pattern is skewed
diagonally across the teeth rather than parallel to them; I don't THINK
that's right. But I don't know whether that's from the original setup or
only since I began to have a whine. What I DO know is that the case ain't
'sposed to have that big crack all the way around the passenger side output
bearing!

Now how/when did that happen? Did the missing gear chunk finally lodge
between the pinion and ring gear, locking everything up momentarily,
breaking the case open and simultaneously shearing both axles? I'd sure
have thought that would be a dramatic event, exciting even HER. But
neither of us heard a thing unusual! Alternative hypotheses welcomed --
but they won't be tested -- not by me! :-)

Here's the link again:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B3XquSIYjDleQXZPNkFKVUNGRnM?usp=sharing

Ken H.
 
Sure sounds like a reasonable explanation, especially with the case split.
Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1975 Eleganza II, 101230

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
 
Me, too.

But I'm really wondering how the ring gear chipped in the first place.
Looks like brittle fracture, not fatigue.

How many miles?

Any failed bearings?

Rick "post-mortems restore confidence" Denney

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 10:06 PM Hal StClair
wrote:

> Sure sounds like a reasonable explanation, especially with the case split.
> Hal
> --
> 1977 Royale 101348,
>
> 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
>
> 1975 Eleganza II, 101230
>
> 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
 
It all starts at the forge and foundry. Purity of the ores. Quenched too
quickly, not quickly enough, etc. Speed of cutters, amount of chatter,
finish, polishing, assembly, vibration, stresses of all kinds. Setup of
gears. And on, and on. Like Rick says, post failure analysis is not an
exact science without electron microphotographs, xrays, cubic $$$$. Old
stuff eventually fails. Fatigue? Stresses accumulate over time. Stuff
happens. Best guess? Like the Col. said. From where I stand, anyway.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

> Me, too.
>
> But I'm really wondering how the ring gear chipped in the first place.
> Looks like brittle fracture, not fatigue.
>
> How many miles?
>
> Any failed bearings?
>
> Rick "post-mortems restore confidence" Denney
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 10:06 PM Hal StClair

>
> > Sure sounds like a reasonable explanation, especially with the case
> split.
> > Hal
> > --
> > 1977 Royale 101348,
> >
> > 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
> >
> > 1975 Eleganza II, 101230
> >
> > 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> --
> Rick Denney
> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Well, to everyone's relief, especially mine, here's the final report on our
adventure:

Yesterday morning Lou Boone arrived to help me with the re-assembly of the
coach. The final drive had not yet arrived, so we busied ourselves with
installing the replacement right side axle and general cleanup. Then we
pulled the pinion carrier out of the FD. These pictures show what we found:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3XquSIYjDleQXZPNkFKVUNGRnM

My hypothesis that the ring gear lost part of a tooth, causing the lock-up
and breakage of the axles and housing, was apparently wrong. It seems that
one of the pinon teeth let go and caused the damage to the ring gear tooth,
and the jam and breakage. As the photos show, almost the entire tooth
broke off. Why? Dunno.

The coasting noise I reported earlier was unquestionably a warning, but not
a very clear one. When I changed the FD lube after Bean Station, it looked
good, so little damage had been done by that time -- perhaps the gear had
fractured but was holding its position. There was no obvious reason to do
anything other that what I did -- make another trip. By the end of that
200 mile trip, the new lube was thoroughly polluted with ground up metal;
if the old had looked 1/10th that bad when I changed it, I'd have torn into
the FD then.

But, without being able to turn the pinon with the FD installed, I might
not have even seen the single bad tooth on the ring gear. And would
definitely not have seen any flaw on the pinion, which can only be examined
by removing the FD and the 6 bolts holding the pinon carrier into the FD.
I have no words of wisdom for any other potential victim except, "Don't
ignore a sudden increase in FD noise!".

Oh yeah, according to my records, I'd put 85,746 miles on that 3.55 FD from
Applied GMC, most of it supporting a Cad500 engine -- and a reasonably
moderate driver (not a JimK). I don't think this failure reflects
unfavorable at all on Jim's product. It was not a wear problem but more
what I'd call a "concealed defect", which can never be fully prevented.

After lunch we stopped by the friend's shop where the drive was to be drop
shipped. About 15 minutes after we left there I got a call to come back
and pick it up -- it was there on our first visit.

Offloading the old drive from the engine hoist and mounting the replacement
went smoothly: I was able to bolt on the mounting jig with the new drive
still in the box. An overhead chain hoist that I keep in place lifted the
FD & jig into a perfect position to bolt the jig to the engine hoist.

Installation of the FD went reasonably well despite some difficulty getting
it past my Cad 500 engine mount. It took us until time to clean up for
supper to get the FD bolted in place, but we ended the day feeling very
good about the day's progress.

This morning Lou bolted up and torqued the axles while I installed the
final drive cover he'd cleaned and painted yesterday (we used my old one
because of its temperature sensor and drain plug). Because I'd had to
drain ATF when I removed the FD, we had to pull the vacuum modulator from
the transmission and add fluid 'til it ran out (I didn't want to trust the
dipstick). I pulled the VM while Lou poured ATF from above. When we
thought we had it full, we cleaned up for a test drive. When I shifted
into Reverse, everything operated OK, but when I stopped a few feet later
and shifted into Drive, nothing happened -- nor in S, L, or R! Trying
again, I got D, so moved back onto the rack.

After several VM out, ATF in, VM in, engine run & shift gears, we finally
got reliable shifting. I don't know why we had so much trouble getting a
full fill, but we did. The dipstick read correctly when all was done.

I'm not going to tell you about the one time I tried to HOLD the modulator
in during the engine run & shifting. Nor about the blast of ATF all over
me, the chassis, exhaust pipe, the rack floor... Nope, ain't never gonna
mention that nor the pile of oil absorb I've got to clean up tomorrow.

Once we were cleaned up again, we took the coach for a trouble-free 25 mile
ride. It shifts properly and the FD seems nearly silent -- neither Lou nor
I hears well enough to say "absolutely quiet".

All in all, it's been a frustrating, but educational experience. I hope
this long thread will result in others having less difficulties!

I'll be leaving on Thursday for GMCDL Noccalula Falls, AL. I'm confident
of a trouble-free trip.

Most of all, thanks to all those who offered to, and did, help: The
Richardsons for receiving us and helping with the initial "repairs". Manny
for having the premonition, or something, to send me the two spare axles 18
months before I needed them. Special thanks to Jim K for expediting a
replacement drive to me, and to Craig Lechowicz for getting it built up and
to me promptly. And most of all, to Lou Boone for being here with me
through the critical reassembly and all the times when 4 hands were 10
times as good as 2. Thank all of you and those I didn't mention by name.
Only in "GMC Land".

Over & Out,

Ken H.