plug into GFI outlet

[kstockwell]

Last week while plugged in at home my GFI outlet popped at some point. I had been using my vacuum cleaner (not the GMC one). I plugged it in again
and later I noticed the GFI outlet was buzzing, not super loud but pretty loud.

So, I plugged into my house outlet (non GFI). This GFI outlet is new, the whole line to the garage is new we didn't have one before.

I plugged in this morning, waited for it to start buzzing- maybe 5 minutes. Then I shut breakers off. It would change the pitch of the buzz. I got
to the one labeled water heater (on my panel it's the upper right) and the buzzing stopped. So, now what do I do? The water heater was off, I have a
wire coming from the breaker box to an normal switch that says water heater. It's always off, I use propane to heat my water.

It's like it's not grounding out, but it's sort of grounded? It sounded like this, but only when I was plugged in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw2MdV1X1iU

thanks
kelly
--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

 

[Ken B]

Turning off the circuit breaker to the water heater does NOT disconnect the neutral and ground to the water heater. It sounds like you have a short
in the heating element between neutral and ground. Replace the heating element or disconnect the neutral going to the water heating element.
Electric heating elements failures are very common.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

 

[kstockwell]

Thank you for the info. I should be ok in the meantime if I don't use the water heater on electric and keep the breaker off?
Then when I can I'll change the element. I'm not sure were that is; but I'm sure the internet will help me. It's a newer water heater, not stock

kelly
--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

 

[mghamms]

Most gmc's have the ground and neutral connected in the breaker box.
There is also the possibility that they are connected elsewhere.
These connections ate what will trip the gfi. Gfi just Checks for an unbalanced load between the hot and neutral.
If the neutral and ground are connected some power may be transferred from the neutral to the ground and trip the gfi.
Your gfi may be bad now because of this. Change to a new gfi and use your rv with a none gfi outlet should fix your short term problem.
--
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts

 

[kstockwell]

I did more investigation because I realized the IOTA converter was also plugged into this breaker and my batteries were low. Apparently the IOTA
DLS45 is what's tripping the GFIC
If I plug it into another outlet in the coach (not the one next to the circuit breaker that also goes to the water heater) it quickly trips. When
plugged into the outlet by the circuit breaker it makes the GFI outlet buzz like crazy and eventually trips.

I just did a search and found this.
http://www.everything-about-rving.com/when-my-rv-is-plugged-into-a-gfci-outlet-the-power-converter-is-tripping-the-gfci.html

anyone else have this happen? I'm still not sure my GFI outlet is not the issue. It's new but I had a hot tub on this circuit once with a GFI
breaker. Between the GFI on the end of the hot tub plug, and the GFI circuit breaker it didn't work out, we ended up putting in a normal circuit
breaker. I now have a normal circuit breaker and a GFI outlet. though other things don't seem to make it buzz or pop.

We leave for music camp tonight. We went a month ago; I'm pretty sure I plug into a GFI outlet there; so I'll see if it happens there. If so this is
a new thing, if not my GFI outlet is crap

kelly
--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

 

[Ken H.]

Mike, et al,

Any GMC which has the ground and neutral connected in its breaker box is
MISWIRED and DANGEROUS. That connection should be made ONLY in the shore
power box. To understand this requirement, read this:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmceast.com%2Ftechnical%2FBurton_Grounding_GMC_Motorhome.pdf
or
https://goo.gl/MW1lcP

Ken H.

> Most gmc's have the ground and neutral connected in the breaker box.
> There is also the possibility that they are connected elsewhere.
> These connections ate what will trip the gfi. Gfi just Checks for an
> unbalanced load between the hot and neutral.
> If the neutral and ground are connected some power may be transferred from
> the neutral to the ground and trip the gfi.
> Your gfi may be bad now because of this. Change to a new gfi and use your
> rv with a none gfi outlet should fix your short term problem.
> --
> 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
>
>

 

[kstockwell]

this is what work printers are for. double sided, color ready to read this weekend

thank you

> Mike, et al,
>
> Any GMC which has the ground and neutral connected in its breaker box is
> MISWIRED and DANGEROUS. That connection should be made ONLY in the shore
> power box. To understand this requirement, read this:
>
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmceast.com%2Ftechnical%2FBurton_Grounding_GMC_Motorhome.pdf
> or
> https://goo.gl/MW1lcP
>
> Ken H.
>

>
> > Most gmc's have the ground and neutral connected in the breaker box.
> > There is also the possibility that they are connected elsewhere.
> > These connections ate what will trip the gfi. Gfi just Checks for an
> > unbalanced load between the hot and neutral.
> > If the neutral and ground are connected some power may be transferred from
> > the neutral to the ground and trip the gfi.
> > Your gfi may be bad now because of this. Change to a new gfi and use your
> > rv with a none gfi outlet should fix your short term problem.
> > --
> > 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

 

[sgltrac]

I see in there that Ken B states that Paterson says to ground the dist to
the battery. If i remember correctly in my instructions that came with the
Paterson dist it said to ground it directly to the intake manifold.

Sully
77 eleganza 2
Bellevue

> this is what work printers are for. double sided, color ready to read
> this weekend
>
> thank you
>
>
>

> > Mike, et al,
> >
> > Any GMC which has the ground and neutral connected in its breaker box is
> > MISWIRED and DANGEROUS. That connection should be made ONLY in the shore
> > power box. To understand this requirement, read this:
> >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmceast.com%2Ftechnical%2FBurton_Grounding_GMC_Motorhome.pdf
> > or
> > https://goo.gl/MW1lcP
> >
> > Ken H.
> >

> >
> > > Most gmc's have the ground and neutral connected in the breaker box.
> > > There is also the possibility that they are connected elsewhere.
> > > These connections ate what will trip the gfi. Gfi just Checks for an
> > > unbalanced load between the hot and neutral.
> > > If the neutral and ground are connected some power may be transferred
> from
> > > the neutral to the ground and trip the gfi.
> > > Your gfi may be bad now because of this. Change to a new gfi and use
> your
> > > rv with a none gfi outlet should fix your short term problem.
> > > --
> > > 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> --
> 1978 Kingsley
> Putney VT
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[mghamms]

> Mike, et al,
>
> Any GMC which has the ground and neutral connected in its breaker box is
> MISWIRED and DANGEROUS. That connection should be made ONLY in the shore
> power box. To understand this requirement, read this:
>
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmceast.com%2Ftechnical%2FBurton_Grounding_GMC_Motorhome.pdf
> or
> https://goo.gl/MW1lcP
>
> Ken H.
>

>
> > Most gmc's have the ground and neutral connected in the breaker box.
> > There is also the possibility that they are connected elsewhere.
> > These connections ate what will trip the gfi. Gfi just Checks for an
> > unbalanced load between the hot and neutral.
> > If the neutral and ground are connected some power may be transferred from
> > the neutral to the ground and trip the gfi.
> > Your gfi may be bad now because of this. Change to a new gfi and use your
> > rv with a none gfi outlet should fix your short term problem.
> > --
> > 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> >
> >
>
> Miswires Yes
>
> Dangerous Well not that much. Should be fixed to meet the code but no real danger. Don't forget that the NEC if set by committee and not all
> science.
>
> I did look up the electric code from 1974 just to see if the ground and neutral should be separate at that point of time. And YES they should have
> even then.
> non electricians over time do muck things up.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

--
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts

 

[Jim Hupy]

If you make yourself into a better ground path than the conductors
themselves provide, you can be assured that electricity will find a way to
ground through you. If you do not consider that to be dangerous, I ponder
why you do not? I would not do that.
Jim Hupy

> > Mike, et al,
> >
> > Any GMC which has the ground and neutral connected in its breaker box is
> > MISWIRED and DANGEROUS. That connection should be made ONLY in the shore
> > power box. To understand this requirement, read this:
> >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmceast.com%2Ftechnical%2FBurton_Grounding_GMC_Motorhome.pdf
> > or
> > https://goo.gl/MW1lcP
> >
> > Ken H.
> >

> >
> > > Most gmc's have the ground and neutral connected in the breaker box.
> > > There is also the possibility that they are connected elsewhere.
> > > These connections ate what will trip the gfi. Gfi just Checks for an
> > > unbalanced load between the hot and neutral.
> > > If the neutral and ground are connected some power may be transferred
> from
> > > the neutral to the ground and trip the gfi.
> > > Your gfi may be bad now because of this. Change to a new gfi and use
> your
> > > rv with a none gfi outlet should fix your short term problem.
> > > --
> > > 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Miswires Yes
> >
> > Dangerous Well not that much. Should be fixed to meet the code but no
> real danger. Don't forget that the NEC if set by committee and not all
> > science.
> >
> > I did look up the electric code from 1974 just to see if the ground and
> neutral should be separate at that point of time. And YES they should have
> > even then.
> > non electricians over time do muck things up.
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> --
> 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[Ken B]

I think I convinced Dick to change his instructions and he did it. You are correct. Connect distributor ground to something on the engine. The
intake manifold it fine.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

 

[Ken H.]

You don't even have to be "better", just good enough to conduct 100 mA (0.1
A) or so at 170 volts (peak voltage 120 vac). That 1700 Ohms isn't hard to
achieve under wet conditions.

Ken H.

> If you make yourself into a better ground path than the conductors
> themselves provide, you can be assured that electricity will find a way to
> ground through you. If you do not consider that to be dangerous, I ponder
> why you do not? I would not do that.
> Jim Hupy
>

>

> > > Mike, et al,
> > >
> > > Any GMC which has the ground and neutral connected in its breaker box
> is
> > > MISWIRED and DANGEROUS. That connection should be made ONLY in the
> shore
> > > power box. To understand this requirement, read this:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmceast.com%2Ftechnical%2FBurton_Grounding_GMC_Motorhome.pdf
> > > or
> > > https://goo.gl/MW1lcP
> > >
> > > Ken H.
> > >

> > >
> > > > Most gmc's have the ground and neutral connected in the breaker box.
> > > > There is also the possibility that they are connected elsewhere.
> > > > These connections ate what will trip the gfi. Gfi just Checks for an
> > > > unbalanced load between the hot and neutral.
> > > > If the neutral and ground are connected some power may be
> transferred
> > from
> > > > the neutral to the ground and trip the gfi.
> > > > Your gfi may be bad now because of this. Change to a new gfi and use
> > your
> > > > rv with a none gfi outlet should fix your short term problem.
> > > > --
> > > > 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Miswires Yes
> > >
> > > Dangerous Well not that much. Should be fixed to meet the code but no
> > real danger. Don't forget that the NEC if set by committee and not all
> > > science.
> > >
> > > I did look up the electric code from 1974 just to see if the ground and
> > neutral should be separate at that point of time. And YES they should
> have
> > > even then.
> > > non electricians over time do muck things up.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> >
> > --
> > 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[richard h staples]

There is also the possibility that they are connected elsewhere.

This differed from my recollection from when I added new circuits and breakers for second AC and electric wall heater, etc to my early '75 Eleganza.
So I went and checked the GM wiring diagrams, and no, the neutral and ground busses are NOT interconnected, at least on GM-finished coaches. If they
ARE connected, it was probably the IPO at work. Be safe out there.

Rick Staples

--
Rick Staples, '75 Eleganza, Johnstown, CO

"Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the Wise to the Wise, and all paths may run ill." -Tolkien

 

[kstockwell]

Hi All,

I'm not dead, electrocuted, laying next to the coach, beer one hand.

I got to camp, and plugged into a GFI outside outlet (same as I did a month ago) and the outlet is not buzzing or tripping. So, I'm suspicious of the
one at home.

Is there a way to test my plug? Can I plug into something (like a Kill-A-Watt type device that tells you about electrical usage) that could give me
info on the electrical flow?

Thank you all for the responses. I was a little worried something had happened in the coach in the last month, but I am hopeful something happened at
home.

Having the electrical info is really helpful. I'm on the cusp of getting one lithium battery to replace my golf carts and I wanted to take a good
look at my electrical compartment; and where things go/what they do. I need to get the special lithium charging dongle for the IOTA, and I wanted to
put the battery in the electrical box area; leaving the back where the 6v batteries are empty for my brand new macerator hose.)

kelly
--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

 

[dave stragand1]

They have little outlet testers at the big box stores for around $5. Very easy to use.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Power-Gear-3-Wire-Receptacle-Tester-50542/206212329

>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm not dead, electrocuted, laying next to the coach, beer one hand.
>
> I got to camp, and plugged into a GFI outside outlet (same as I did a month ago) and the outlet is not buzzing or tripping. So, I'm suspicious of the
> one at home.
>
> Is there a way to test my plug? Can I plug into something (like a Kill-A-Watt type device that tells you about electrical usage) that could give me
> info on the electrical flow?
>
> Thank you all for the responses. I was a little worried something had happened in the coach in the last month, but I am hopeful something happened at
> home.
>
> Having the electrical info is really helpful. I'm on the cusp of getting one lithium battery to replace my golf carts and I wanted to take a good
> look at my electrical compartment; and where things go/what they do. I need to get the special lithium charging dongle for the IOTA, and I wanted to
> put the battery in the electrical box area; leaving the back where the 6v batteries are empty for my brand new macerator hose.)
>
> kelly
> --
> 1978 Kingsley
> Putney VT
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[john r. lebetski]

First, if the ground conductor in your power cable is intact, you should not get a shock even with a leakage to ground in the coach and no GFCI. Metal
fatigue from improper coiling (kinking and twisting) can break the conductors in the cable set. Look for any areas with kinks, bulges or knots. You
can buy a molded extension cord and cut off the female end and have the cord wired into your coach panel to keep factory molded construction. Since
it works at camp you may be ok
Secondly you need to understand how GFCIs work. The current on the hot and neutral needs to be equal and opposite. Does not matter if you are using a
little or a lot it needs to be the same "coming and going". If not then this tells the GFCI it is going somewhere it should not and instantly trip. If
there is a bond between the N and G in the coach that will cause and instant trip as there are now 2 return paths and an imbalance between H and N.
Sounds like your GFCI at home has a loose connection or the device has deteriorated. They do not do well in wet or humid Locations. Best to have it
replaced and checked afterwards
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

 

[john r. lebetski]

A tip is to always coil your power cable into the compartment using what we call in the entertainment industry as "over under" or "reverse coil". If
you gently straighten out the cord and let all the twists come out, then reverse coil it into the compartment you will have zero twists when you
extend it. Otherwise if you go round and round you will have one kink for every turn. This can cause the internal conductors to shift ruining the
cable.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

 

[Jim Hupy]

I used to try to coil both hoses and long extension cords and almost always
fought with them. someone showed me how to handle them. Lay them out in a
straight line, and pull one end to the other. Drop them on the ground, walk
back to the middle, and pick it up, walk to the ends. Repeat, until you can
pick up the whole thing. To deploy, just take it out and give it a toss. It
will lay out, no kinks. If you coil it, it will tangle.
Jim Hupy

On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 7:53 AM, John R. Lebetski
wrote:

> A tip is to always coil your power cable into the compartment using what
> we call in the entertainment industry as "over under" or "reverse coil". If
> you gently straighten out the cord and let all the twists come out, then
> reverse coil it into the compartment you will have zero twists when you
> extend it. Otherwise if you go round and round you will have one kink for
> every turn. This can cause the internal conductors to shift ruining the
> cable.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[emerystora]

>
> On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 7:53 AM, John R. Lebetski

>
>> A tip is to always coil your power cable into the compartment using what
>> we call in the entertainment industry as "over under" or "reverse coil". If
>> you gently straighten out the cord and let all the twists come out, then
>> reverse coil it into the compartment you will have zero twists when you
>> extend it. Otherwise if you go round and round you will have one kink for
>> every turn. This can cause the internal conductors to shift ruining the
>> cable.
>> --
>> John Lebetski
>> Woodstock, IL
>> 77 Eleganza II
>>

John
You are too late warning me. I have been coiling my 50 (40) amp cable round and round for the 37 years that I have owned it.
When can I expect to have the cable ruined?

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

 

[Ken H.]

Emery,

We need to have him give us lessons at the next rally -- I haven't been
able to figure it out for the past 81 years! Maybe we can get Kim to
schedule a seminar?

Ken H.

>
> >
> > On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 7:53 AM, John R. Lebetski <
> gransport7087>

> >
> >> A tip is to always coil your power cable into the compartment using what
> >> we call in the entertainment industry as "over under" or "reverse
> coil". If
> >> you gently straighten out the cord and let all the twists come out, then
> >> reverse coil it into the compartment you will have zero twists when you
> >> extend it. Otherwise if you go round and round you will have one kink
> for
> >> every turn. This can cause the internal conductors to shift ruining the
> >> cable.
> >> --
> >> John Lebetski
> >> Woodstock, IL
> >> 77 Eleganza II
> >>
>
> John
> You are too late warning me. I have been coiling my 50 (40) amp cable
> round and round for the 37 years that I have owned it.
> When can I expect to have the cable ruined?
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CO
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>