One-ton knuckle outer tie rod end improvement

[RF_Burns]

The One-Ton steering knuckle has a larger hole for the outer tie rod end. It is also a thicker mount than the OEM knuckle, so the OEM outer tie rod
end does not sit deep enough to fully thread the nut on the tie rod end stud. The solution was to ream the hole slightly to allow the stud to sit
deeper and the nut will thread on.

I found this left two issues on my coach:
1 - The stud does not meet with the knuckle until the well inside the knuckle. My farm-boy shade-tree mechanic instincts tell me that this will put
an additional lever arm on the stud and excess forces. Indeed I found the outer tie-rod end stud loosened several times. I've replaced my outer tie
rod ends and made a collar to bring the point of contact closer to the tie rod end ball joint, which seems to work because the stud has not loosened
since... but I'm not happy with that setup.

2 - Also with the OEM outer tie rod end, the stud sits so deep that there is little room for up/down movement. I don't know if mine hit the knuckle,
but its close and doesn't sit well with me.

In a recent video from Hal StClair on his current rear-wheel drive build, he showed his front end using a one-ton setup. For the outer tie-rod end he
used the correct GM tie rod end for the GMC. He found a business that will custom make the adjustment tube of any length with any standard size thread
on either end for a cost of only $19.00.

I'd like to investigate this further, but I was wondering if anyone else has done this and could share the information.

Here is Hal's video showing his front end. Unfortunately the audio is badly muffled. I believe he said he had to use a different inner tie rod end
from a Ford to get left and right hand threads for each end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s0L0KBi6AY

Hal shared with me the source of the tie rod sleeve:

http://dcaracefab.com/dca-cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=21&zenid=65r04ohcgkf0je3fsuosr20jb1

I'm hoping that using the OEM outer tie rod end will address my two concerns. So again just wondering if anyone else has already done this and can
share their experiences / info with the group.

Thanks to Hal for this information.


--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

 

[hal stclair]

Bruce, I used the OEM out board tie rod from the 1 ton truck. I'm not sure you will be able to use this tie rod end in the 1 ton conversion knuckle as
that has been modified/reamed out. You might have to start with a new knuckle because of the modifications.
Hal
--
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."

1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,

Rio Rancho, NM

 

[Jim Hupy]

Bruce has a "home brewed" 1-Ton kit, not the one from Manny T.
Manny reams that tie rod bore with a tapered reamer. Ones from the
men's mall need to be reamed, they are a metric taper, not S.A.E. like the
tie rod itself. Sometimes when you finish reaming, the bore comes out a bit
large for the tie rod end, and the shoulder of the taper extends beyond the
control arm bore. The cure for that is to use a very thick flat washer
under the castle nut to take up that space. The center hole in that thick
washer must be large enough to allow the shoulder to go through it, NOT
against the washer. When any tapered joint is assembled, it must be
absolutely clean and grease free. If it isn't, you can expect it to loosen
up in use. Been there, done that! Got the free t shirt that says "stupid
does as stupid is."
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 9:02 AM Hal StClair via Gmclist <

> Bruce, I used the OEM out board tie rod from the 1 ton truck. I'm not sure
> you will be able to use this tie rod end in the 1 ton conversion knuckle as
> that has been modified/reamed out. You might have to start with a new
> knuckle because of the modifications.
> Hal
> --
> "I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own
> mind, except you happen to be insane."
>
> 1977 Royale 101348,
>
> 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
>
>
>
> 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
>
> Rio Rancho, NM
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[RF_Burns]

Sorry JimH...

I don't have a home-brew one-ton setup. I bought a kit from JimK circa Fall 2010/maybe winter 2011... maybe even even spring 2010.

At that time I had not even heard of Manny offering a one-ton kit despite my watching the GMC sites several times a day.

So say who's stupid now... sorry you called it!

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

 

[Jim Hupy]

Bruce, I was referring to myself with the stupid reference. Sorry if I made
it sound like I was talking about you. Not intended.
Your Jim K. setup was more than likely a real Bill Hubler conversion,
if it was an early one. Same thing applies about the metric taper and
reamers, though. That was about the time when GM switched over to metric,
some very early 1 ton stuff was SAE. Later stuff was metric. Are the 4
bolts that screw into the back of the hub metric, like 15 mm? If so, than
the tie rod end taper is likely metric spec also. I have installed so many
1 ton front ends that I forget how many. Some were metric, some not. I have
run into the same issue of the loose fitting tapers as well.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 7:58 PM Bruce Hislop via Gmclist <

> Sorry JimH...
>
> I don't have a home-brew one-ton setup. I bought a kit from JimK circa
> Fall 2010/maybe winter 2011... maybe even even spring 2010.
>
> At that time I had not even heard of Manny offering a one-ton kit despite
> my watching the GMC sites several times a day.
>
> So say who's stupid now... sorry you called it!
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[Richard RV]

Bruce,

I also have a non-kit one ton and I don't recall noticing that the tie rod ends sit down too far in the knuckle. But now you have me wondering. Is
it possible that your knuckles were reamed too deep?

Initially I was going to ream the knuckles myself, then I priced the reamer and brought the knuckles to a drivetrain shop. Guy did it on the spot
with the reamer in a cordless drill, asked for $15 and I gave him $20.

I don't think that the tie rod end sitting further down in the knuckle will have any effect on the stress on the stud. The forces from the steering
box and road contact are not affected, the stud neck has always been the weak point, but it's free to rotate. Unless there's stud/knuckle play, or
the tie rod end hits the knuckle, then, yeah, there's a problem. I think if the tie rod end hit the knuckle you would've already found out the hard
way.

If I had any concern I'd have no problem grinding down the bottom outboard edges of the knuckle's tie rod end lever to increase the clearance.
Wouldn't take much - rounding over the corner 1/8" would probably increase tie rod travel clearance by an inch.

Please clarify something - Jim H mentioned a washer under the castle nut to take up the slack, but you mentioned a collar. Is your collar
placed/configured differently, is it a tapered sleeve...?

Richard
--
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach with 18,477 verified miles;
‘76 Edgemonte

 

[RF_Burns]

Richard, I'll try to clarify what JimH was saying. Since the knuckle mount for the one-ton is thicker than the GMC motorhome, the tie-rod end stud
would not go far enough through to expose enough threads for the nut and cotter pin. The solution was to ream the knuckle a bit to allow enough
threads for the cotter pin to be inserted. If you reamed too much then the stud sat too high and the nut was past the cotter pin holes. Some just
added a thick flat washer to correct this.

Mine was reamed just enough to get the cotter pin in with some cursing, so that is not the issue on mine. However the stud does not contact the
knuckle until it is well inside the knuckle.

Just thought the proper OEM outer tie rod end would fit better.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

 

[RF_Burns]

Hal,

Interestingly when I look up on the Moog site and enter 1990 K3500 it show the outer tie rod end as a ES2836RL with a right hand thread.

When I look up a 1997 (the year you used) it shows a ES2838RL with a left hand thread... same thread (I think) as the ES412RL which the OEM knuckle
used. I say "I think" because the specs Moog site shows for the ES412RL are definitely WRONG!

I'll need to investigate further to see if the one-ton tie-rod end will fit better even after reaming.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

 

[RF_Burns]

So I found a Moog PDF showing the tie rod end (TRE) stud to knuckle misfit that I am trying to correct. The OEM outer TRE stud is too short to fit
the one-ton knuckle's TRE mounting boss. The solution is was to ream the taper out slightly to allow the stud to sit in further so the nut and cotter
pin could be properly fitted. That means the where the TRE stud meets the knuckle taper is inside the boss... even further than shown on this Moog
bulletin.

My knuckle was reamed just enough to get the cotter pin in by curving the cotter pin just a bit.

Any one know of a site that shows the actual stud length of various TRE's. Moog's site only shows major and minor stud diameters, not the length.

So I am hoping to find an outer TRE that will fit the knuckle and be compatible with the rest of the steering system.

https://www.rockauto.com/genImages/11/MOOG_PS_Bulletin_27019B_Stud_Design_ENG-R.pdf

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that