Onan electric gas shut off valve just before the fuel pump.

ken harland

New member
Dec 30, 2005
292
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Interesting discussion. I was just working on mine and was thinking the valve wasn't opening because the pump wouldn't prime the carb so I pulled the
valve and found it was in fact failed....open! Fuel just flows straight through it when held vertically and disconnected from power. Who knows how
long it's been like that.

But as to the point that the carb fuel will be drawn down without the solenoid valve, that's not possible as the fuel inlet on the carb is above the
fuel level in the bowl. It certainly can evacuate the pump and filter if you use one but none of those will delay starting if the carb bowl is full.
I also doubt that air flowing back through the system can starve the motor driven fuel pump but that's only a hunch. Easy enough to put a vacuum
gauge on the line and see which brings me to the point of my post...how much suction is the Onan pump supposed to produce?

Mine has very little and I didn't have my gauges handy to check but I really had to pay close attention to see that there's any at all. It hasn't
been long since I disassembled and cleaned it so I doubt it's fouled but the check valves could be leaky from age.

As an aside, you know how you start to tackle one specific problem and pretty soon you're up to your neck in issues? My goal today was to test the
low oil pressure switch since the Onan would start but shut off as soon as you released the start switch. As I sat on the ground beside the genset, I
figured I might as well pull the side cover off to expose the pressure switch while I was taking the cover off the control board. Well don't you know
it...one of the bolts holding the cover snapped off flush in the head with the slightest pressure.

So I stopped there and got my drill, left-hand drill bits, tap, sharp punch, hammer and propane torch. A little later the remains of the bolt were
extracted and threads cleaned up. I reseated the connector on the pressure switch just to make sure and then tried to start the generator and no
dice! It started fine a few days ago. Grabbed a 12 V source and attempted to prime the carb and the pump ran continuously building no back pressure
unlike a few days ago. That launched me on the troubleshooting of the solenoid valve. I don't imagine they pull much vacuum but it appeared mine
couldn't pull any fuel from a nearly full tank.
--
1978 Eleganza II
 
> But as to the point that the carb fuel will be drawn down without the solenoid valve, that's not possible as the fuel inlet on the carb is above the
> fuel level in the bowl. It certainly can evacuate the pump and filter if you use one but none of those will delay starting if the carb bowl is full.


Hi Ken,

You are correct in that in the absence of the solenoid valve the siphon induced by fuel dropping back into the tank can drain the pump but not the carb bowl.

Keep in mind that the temperature in the Onan compartment stays very near ambient while the machine is running due to massive cooling airflow - however the temperature rises rapidly and considerably once the machine is shut down; the sustained heat soak after shutdown can vaporize some (or perhaps all) of the fuel inventory that was left in the bowl. Crappy ethanol-laced gas exacerbates this effect (ask the people whose main engine suffers from vapor lock).

I was curious about the temperatures in the Onan enclosure so I instrumented my compartment with thermocouples to see exactly what was going on. I found that on an 80F day the compartment reached almost 220F directly above the exhaust manifold immediately after the unit was shut off. The carb, being on top of the engine, will be subject to the same temperature extremes and therefore fuel evaporation out of the bowl could be an issue for subsequent starts.

My temperature measurement results are here: http://www.jcmco.com/gallery/album29

—Jim

Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
 
Thanks, Jim. Good information.

I would like to point out that the Onan was running with the drawer and cover door closed.

Some people think that their Onan will run cooler with the door propped open and the Onan extended on its slides.
I have often seen them running this way at campgrounds.

However, as your data shows, the massive cooling airflow is achieved with the Onan tucked into its enclosure with the compartment door closed.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

>

>
>> But as to the point that the carb fuel will be drawn down without the solenoid valve, that's not possible as the fuel inlet on the carb is above the
>> fuel level in the bowl. It certainly can evacuate the pump and filter if you use one but none of those will delay starting if the carb bowl is full.
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> You are correct in that in the absence of the solenoid valve the siphon induced by fuel dropping back into the tank can drain the pump but not the carb bowl.
>
> Keep in mind that the temperature in the Onan compartment stays very near ambient while the machine is running due to massive cooling airflow - however the temperature rises rapidly and considerably once the machine is shut down; the sustained heat soak after shutdown can vaporize some (or perhaps all) of the fuel inventory that was left in the bowl. Crappy ethanol-laced gas exacerbates this effect (ask the people whose main engine suffers from vapor lock).
>
> I was curious about the temperatures in the Onan enclosure so I instrumented my compartment with thermocouples to see exactly what was going on. I found that on an 80F day the compartment reached almost 220F directly above the exhaust manifold immediately after the unit was shut off. The carb, being on top of the engine, will be subject to the same temperature extremes and therefore fuel evaporation out of the bowl could be an issue for subsequent starts.
>
> My temperature measurement results are here: http://www.jcmco.com/gallery/album29
>
> —Jim
>
> Jim Miller
> 1977 Eleganza
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Hi Emery,

I’m subscribed to the email list and Ken’s message that I replied to is the first I’ve seen with this particular subject; therefore I do not know the whole back story.

Maybe some messages are not making it from the forum to the email list?

I would not run my Onan extended out on its slides unless I had a good reason to do so however I see no harm (and perhaps some potential benefit) to running the unit with the door open if circumstances permitted me to do so. The engine will receive the same cooling airflow while operating no matter whether the door is open or closed - but after shutdown the hot air would convectively flow right out of the compartment through the open door thus cooling things off more rapidly and preventing loss of fuel inventory in the bowl.

—Jim

Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

>
> Thanks, Jim. Good information.
>
> I would like to point out that the Onan was running with the drawer and cover door closed.
>
> Some people think that their Onan will run cooler with the door propped open and the Onan extended on its slides.
> I have often seen them running this way at campgrounds.
>
> However, as your data shows, the massive cooling airflow is achieved with the Onan tucked into its enclosure with the compartment door closed.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CO
 
Jim, this thread started in Nov 2016 and the last post before mine was still that month so maybe that's why you don't recognize it.
--
1978 Eleganza II
 
> Jim, this thread started in Nov 2016 and the last post before mine was still that month so maybe that's why you don't recognize it.

Yes Ken, that must be it. I’ve archived GMCnet 2016 and therefore didn’t see the rest of the thread. Thank you.

Strange, though….your sentence I quoted above was all that came through the email reflector to my mailbox. Yet, when I look at the forum there’s an additional sentence - “Still hoping someone has suction specs for the Onan pump”.

I do not know that *suction* specs were published for the pump nor have I ever tried to measure it as it seems kind of a meaningless indicator of performance in this particular application. I can tell you, however, that I measured the pump's *discharge* pressure fluctuating at 1-2 psi on an operational Onan that was fully loaded at 6kW. HTH.

—Jim

Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
 
Hi Jim,

Not sure I understand your statement "it seems kind of a meaningless indicator of performance in this particular application". The pump has to be
able to draw fuel from the tanks and to do so must create some level of suction. Mine seems weak but without some guidance I can't assess whether
it's adequate or I have a different problem upstream.
--
1978 Eleganza II
 
> Not sure I understand your statement "it seems kind of a meaningless indicator of performance in this particular application". The pump has to be
> able to draw fuel from the tanks and to do so must create some level of suction. Mine seems weak but without some guidance I can't assess whether
> it's adequate or I have a different problem upstream.

Why not just measure the discharge pressure? If you google: facet bendix fuel pump ….then you’ll find that their output pressure, operating voltage and pipe fitting size are specified...not their suction ability.

If we were talking about a vacuum pump or a well water pump then suction specs might be interesting but in the case of the Onan we’re talking about a foot or less of lift from the main fuel tank to the pump. I’m more interested in the pump’s ability to push fuel into the bowl without so much pressure to overrun the needle/seat. Just my $0.02.

—Jim

Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
 
> Hi Ken,
> You are correct in that in the absence of the solenoid valve the siphon induced by fuel dropping back into the tank can drain the pump but not the
> carb bowl. ...
I guess Duane Simmons never thought of that.

http://bdub.net/gmcmotorhome.info/generator.html

I wonder how many folks read that (besides just me) and removed it. I wonder if any of them had problems because of it.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."
 
You need to use the rubber seal around the oil filter and even attach the
cooling air deflector .
The Prime switch helps to shorten cranking time as the switch will pull
fuel to the bowel of carb.
These options have been used on these Onan since 1990.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Ken Harland
wrote:

> Hi Jim,
>
> Not sure I understand your statement "it seems kind of a meaningless
> indicator of performance in this particular application". The pump has to
> be
> able to draw fuel from the tanks and to do so must create some level of
> suction. Mine seems weak but without some guidance I can't assess whether
> it's adequate or I have a different problem upstream.
> --
> 1978 Eleganza II
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
 
Since no one seems to have an answer I guess I'll first disassemble this pump perhaps one last time before ordering a replacement.

I'm probably going to remove and clean the tank selector valve while I'm at it so to make sure I have no problems there.


--
1978 Eleganza II
 
The suction side of that style of pump has very little suction when pulling air. Many times when the gas line and pump is dry (empty) we have to
prime them to get them to start pumping again. It takes very little vacuum to get that pump to run again if it has liquid in the pump and line.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
> Jim, this thread started in Nov 2016 and the last post before mine was still that month so maybe that's why you don't recognize it.
>
> Still hoping someone has suction specs for the Onan pump.

Ken,

During an engine installation in an otherwise good sailboat, I had to find a location for the Bendix fuel pump. In the instructions provided, they
recommended that the pump be located above the fuel tank top by no more than 3 feet. I later came across the same instructions for a Facet electronic
pump, but that said 1 foot.

So, I am guessing that if the pump you are looking at is a Bendix clicker (stock on an Power Drawer), it should pull from the fuel tank => IF the fuel
line to it is sound. I have had trouble with them in the past when the pump got completely dry. I had to run the pump with the discharge open until
it picked up fuel. It was good ever after.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
The Onan draws it's fuel from the rear (main) tank on a pipe fitting
towards the drivers side rear of the tank. There is a fuel stand off tube
attached to the tank inside that only projects into the fuel supply about
3/4 of the way down. This prevents the Onan from consuming all the fuel in
the tank and leaving you stranded. If the fuel level is lower than the end
of the tube, the Onan won't run. Most GMC up fitted coaches use this
fitting. Coachman up fitted coaches do not. They use a "T" in the fuel hose
from the main tank. They will suck you dry on the main tank. And, introduce
air into the fuel supply for the coach engine.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> Since no one seems to have an answer I guess I'll first disassemble this
> pump perhaps one last time before ordering a replacement.
>
> I'm probably going to remove and clean the tank selector valve while I'm
> at it so to make sure I have no problems there.
>
>
> --
> 1978 Eleganza II
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Thanks Ken, Matt and James, good info.

First thing is to draw a suction on the fuel line to confirm there's actually fuel to be drawn. Next is to introduce some fuel into the pump to see
if can hold a suction.

If I decide to replace it, does anyone have an Airtex model number that's a compatible replacement?
--
1978 Eleganza II
 
Now there's a reason right there to keep the solenoid valve. If my valve is indeed failed in the open position, that could explain why I've often had
difficult starting the genset.
--
1978 Eleganza II
 
> > Jim, this thread started in Nov 2016 and the last post before mine was still that month so maybe that's why you don't recognize it.
> >
> > Still hoping someone has suction specs for the Onan pump.
>
> Ken,
>
> During an engine installation in an otherwise good sailboat, I had to find a location for the Bendix fuel pump. In the instructions provided,
> they recommended that the pump be located above the fuel tank top by no more than 3 feet. I later came across the same instructions for a Facet
> electronic pump, but that said 1 foot.
>
> So, I am guessing that if the pump you are looking at is a Bendix clicker (stock on an Power Drawer), it should pull from the fuel tank => IF the
> fuel line to it is sound. I have had trouble with them in the past when the pump got completely dry. I had to run the pump with the discharge open
> until it picked up fuel. It was good ever after.
>
> Matt


I have had similar experiences with the Facet pumps. If you open the input line to the pump all of the fuel runs back to the tank and the line is
left dry inside. On one I had to resort to the loose rag and compressed air in the fuel filler to initially coax the gas up the line. I am not
recommending this as people that do not know what they are doing can easily destroy something in the tank and fuel system there or elsewhere in the
coach.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Ken, even when the valve works, when the unit is turned off and the heat
evaporates the fuel in the bowel,you end up cranking a few.
By installing the prime pump switch, you push the button for several
seconds then hit the starter.
I believe we supply the kit for around $28

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 7:58 AM, Ken Harland
wrote:

> Now there's a reason right there to keep the solenoid valve. If my valve
> is indeed failed in the open position, that could explain why I've often had
> difficult starting the genset.
> --
> 1978 Eleganza II
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
 
Just installed mine this afternoon while I wait for a new solenoid valve to arrive.

> Ken, even when the valve works, when the unit is turned off and the heat
> evaporates the fuel in the bowel,you end up cranking a few.
> By installing the prime pump switch, you push the button for several
> seconds then hit the starter.
> I believe we supply the kit for around $28
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

--
1978 Eleganza II