New Toad Brake

Ken H.

Active member
Sep 9, 2000
19,427
5
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Some of you may recall that I recently bought a 2014 Honda CRV, replacing
the CRV we bought new in '99. That car received my "$30 Toad Brake" back
in '07 (or before):

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g3291-2430-toad-brake.html
,
That brake served us VERY well, with no maintenance, for all the years
since. Hopefully, George Zhookoff will enjoy it as much, since he's now
its owner.

Then, a few years back, I designed a "$5 Toad Brake" for proportional
braking:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5153-245-toad-brake.html

I never bothered to complete and install that conceptual design, so now
that I need a new toad brake, I've done a new design and fabrication. It's
been a slow process because of the right thumb surgery I had on Pearl
Harbor day -- I'm still almost one-handed. But, it's now completed and
installed. I guess, as I age, I'm becoming less frugal, because this has
turned out to be the "$200 Toad Brake":

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g7150-24200-toad-brake.html

Before you try that URL, be advised that there are no photos yet, only a
wiring diagram. I'll try to get photos made and posted in the next few
days. In the meantime, here's a primer:

A dash switch controls a Viair 98C compressor to charge a 1/2 cf reservoir,
which is equipped with a pressure switch to control the compressor, a
safety valve, a bleed valve, a pressure gauge, a quick-disconnect for
external air usage, and, most importantly, an output pressure regulator.
That regulator is used to control the pedal force applied in the CRV when
the tow-er's brake lights come ON (or the momentary test switch on the CRV
dash is pressed). The compressor and reservoir are mounted on a custom
mount cantilevered off of two engine mounting bolts.

The regulator feeds a cutoff valve, required because the 5/2 control valve
which follows it tends to bleed air continuously. That control valve
either retract or extends a 1.4 sq. in. pneumatic piston whose cylinder is
mounted laterally and horizontally just above and behind the radiator.
A Bowden cable attaches the pneumatic piston shaft to the brake pedal to
pull it toward the floorboard when the shaft retracts.

That basic assembly is capable of applying about 140 lbf of force (1.4 sq.in.
X 100 psi) to the brake pedal, which is probably enough to provide
sufficient toad braking without vacuum boost. But, depending on that brute
force method would require that the CRV's brake booster ALWAYS be bled
before towing, else the first few stops would be DRAMATIC. And, I didn't
really trust the tiny Bowden cable I'm using to withstand that force long
term.

So, now the dash switch for the compressor also controls a vacuum boost
pump thru a vacuum switch and associated load relay. Turns out, there a
vacant "box" about 6' x 1' x 6" beneath the passenger side of the CRV; the
pump's mounted there. WIth boosted brakes, the pneumatic system needs to
exert only a slight tug to provide adequate braking.

This is still a pure "bang-bang" system; i.e., the brakes are either
applied or not. It would be relatively simple to add a sensor and variable
pressure control for proportional braking. But I'll probably never bother
since this is an improvement on the $30 Toad Brake which served me so well.

All that's explained by the wiring diagram. :-)

Photos to follow.

Ken H.
 
Ken,

I have been marveling at the simplicity of the 5$ Toad Brake that you published some years back.
But, I have only now figured out what bothered me about the installation.

It is simple, with that 500 Caddy in a 23' coach, you could easily pull a hole shot that sent the inertial mass back into the seat hard enough to
damage the upholstery of the seat front. ;)

Matt - I hope you have a boring drive to Tucson


--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
haha That is so true, Matt. I've ridden in that lil hotrod. It'll yank a
kink in yer neck! :-)
bdub

> Ken,
>
> I have been marveling at the simplicity of the 5$ Toad Brake that you
> published some years back.
> But, I have only now figured out what bothered me about the installation.
>
> It is simple, with that 500 Caddy in a 23' coach, you could easily pull a
> hole shot that sent the inertial mass back into the seat hard enough to
> damage the upholstery of the seat front. ;)
>
> Matt - I hope you have a boring drive to Tucson
>
>
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
I told you I still have a FEW minor details to work out on that design.
But I think there's enough left in the budget for a scrap of clothes line.

Thanks for the constructive comments.

Ken, Sitting in the shade of the GMC at Lackland AFB FamCamp Overflow with
John Nicholls, H.

> Ken,
>
> I have been marveling at the simplicity of the 5$ Toad Brake that you
> published some years back.
> But, I have only now figured out what bothered me about the installation.
>
> It is simple, with that 500 Caddy in a 23' coach, you could easily pull a
> hole shot that sent the inertial mass back into the seat hard enough to
> damage the upholstery of the seat front. ;)
>
> Matt - I hope you have a boring drive to Tucson
>
>
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
This is then a constant pedal push regardless what the coach is doing beyond turning its stop lights on?

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
The $5 Toad Brake is fully proportional; the faster the GMC tries to stop
it, the more the $5 Toad Brake helps. Look it up: https://goo.gl/u7aPds

(Be sure to notice the posting date.)

​Ken H.

On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 8:16 PM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <

> This is then a constant pedal push regardless what the coach is doing
> beyond turning its stop lights on?
>
> --johnny
> --
> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Nah, the $200 one.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
Yes, when the brake lights come on, the 3/2 valve opens, applying the
pre-set regulated pressure to retract the cylinder's shaft, pulling the
Bowden cable attached to the brake cable. No attempt at proportionality.
But it is pretty effective at helping the GMC.

If anyone's got a good idea for an inertia controlled, or other air valve
regulating proportional control, I'm probably willing to prototype it --
I'll need suggestions for how to do what I visualize as extensive,
complicated testing to get all the parameters coordinated.

​Ken H.

On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 8:48 AM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <

> Nah, the $200 one.
>
> --johnny
> --
>
 
Ken,
I don't have an idea for your valve but if I may offer one to fix the pulsing brakes when the right turn signal is on:
I think a diode between the NO K1 relay terminal and the K1 coil terminal at B (put in so that Left turn signal current would flow through the NO
contacts to the new diode then to point B but Right turn signal current could not flow from point B to D1) would lock in the relay until brakes were
released. If the left brake light were on, one pulse from Right turn signal would close and lock K1 in until both the right turn signal and the left
brake light were off. To keep the Left brake light from feeding the Right brake llght (or Right turn light) another Diode needs to be installed at
point B.
What do you think?
Dave
PS Should you disable the coach flashers?
--
1977 26 foot 403
 
David,

I'm a bit dense after today's 400 mile ride, but I can't figure out what
your "point B" is. Please enlighten me.

Ken H.

> Ken,
> I don't have an idea for your valve but if I may offer one to fix the
> pulsing brakes when the right turn signal is on:
> I think a diode between the NO K1 relay terminal and the K1 coil terminal
> at B (put in so that Left turn signal current would flow through the NO
> contacts to the new diode then to point B but Right turn signal current
> could not flow from point B to D1) would lock in the relay until brakes were
> released. If the left brake light were on, one pulse from Right turn
> signal would close and lock K1 in until both the right turn signal and the
> left
> brake light were off. To keep the Left brake light from feeding the Right
> brake llght (or Right turn light) another Diode needs to be installed at
> point B.
> What do you think?
> Dave
> PS Should you disable the coach flashers?
> --
> 1977 26 foot 403
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Ken,

There is a device used for turning on a center brake light with inputs from
U.S.-style turn-signals/brake lights. It's called "Stoplogic" and it's $15
here:

https://www.rvandvansurplus.com/brakelights.asp?Vehicletype=RV

It turns on a third brake light only when both right and left turn-signal
lamps are lit, and keeps it on thereafter until both become unlit. I used
one for my high third brake light and it works like a charm. That will stop
the pulsing when a turn signal is on, either by itself or while applying
brakes.

Rick "sure it's just an arrangement of diodes--but someone else figured it
out and made it work for too cheap to make me have to think about it" Denney

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Ken Henderson
wrote:

> David,
>
> I'm a bit dense after today's 400 mile ride, but I can't figure out what
> your "point B" is. Please enlighten me.
>
> Ken H.
>

>
> > Ken,
> > I don't have an idea for your valve but if I may offer one to fix the
> > pulsing brakes when the right turn signal is on:
> > I think a diode between the NO K1 relay terminal and the K1 coil terminal
> > at B (put in so that Left turn signal current would flow through the NO
> > contacts to the new diode then to point B but Right turn signal current
> > could not flow from point B to D1) would lock in the relay until brakes
> were
> > released. If the left brake light were on, one pulse from Right turn
> > signal would close and lock K1 in until both the right turn signal and
> the
> > left
> > brake light were off. To keep the Left brake light from feeding the Right
> > brake llght (or Right turn light) another Diode needs to be installed at
> > point B.
> > What do you think?
> > Dave
> > PS Should you disable the coach flashers?
> > --
> > 1977 26 foot 403
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
 
Ken,
I was referring to your own point "B". Point B is where the Right turn signal connects to the coil of K1.
Dave
--
1977 26 foot 403
 
well if it were me I'd use an arduino, a pressure sensor and a accelerometer. Then PWM the solenoid to keep the pressure where you want it. That sounds like too much work IMHO.

I don't see ho to make a cheap mechanical system.
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of David Shafer
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 8:52 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New Toad Brake

Ken,
I was referring to your own point "B". Point B is where the Right turn signal connects to the coil of K1.
Dave
--
1977 26 foot 403

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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Or, for those of us who are electronically challenged, hook that blue wire
that
GM left in the body harness, to the brake light switch in the front and to
the
center stop light in the rear.

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Colie"
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2018 8:25 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New Toad Brake

> Or, You could look up Emery's design of about 9 years ago.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/3rd-brake-light/p28235-3bake.html
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
I posted about this $15 device at least that long ago. :) Not willing to
heat up the soldering iron for $15, and the package is potted in epoxy and
moisture-proof.

Rick “http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g4086-third-eye-brake-light.html”
Denney

> Or, You could look up Emery's design of about 9 years ago.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/3rd-brake-light/p28235-3bake.html
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com