New 77' Palm Beach Owner

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JSARC

JSARC

New member
Oct 24, 2021
14
11
3
Rock Springs
Hello all,
We finally purchased our first M.H. and how lucky I was to find one that I've loved ever since seeing one on the movie "Stripes" as a kid. We've had it for a week and are getting ready to repair some interior water lines that were frozen and cracked last year before freshening up the interior and getting after the mechanical / electrical checkout. Have removed the carpet that was installed in the 80's or 90's to see the flooring and was happy to see good bones. Currently pressurized the water system to find that both water lines running in the ceiling are split, so this will be my first battle in trying to hopefully remove the old pipe and pull in the new without opening up the ceiling, hopefully.
If anyone has any experience in this area, please shoot and tips my way!
Thanks
Jerod
 
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Hi Jerod,
I brought my 77 Palm Beach home in March of this year so we are both relatively new to the TZE ...my headliner had been replaced by the PO fairly recently so I have no experience with the overhead water lines but guessing the lines are good or may even have been replaced.
The engine heat exchanger hoses, hot water tank and water pump were PO replaced/new so there's a pretty good chance that any suspect lines such as the overheads were attended to when the headliner was changed.

Sorry can't help -just wanted to welcome you aboard.

Larry
 
Depending upon your layout (model) and how you'll be using your rig seasonally, I highly recommend running your plumbing inside the coach rather than back through the ceiling again. If it's in the coach, it's easier to access and keep from freezing when using your GMC in freezing temps.
 
I'm still considering running it inside the coach. Only reason I'm considering to go through the ceiling is to stick with the original layout. I'll see how it goes.
 
Even if you stick with the original layout (depending on the model), you could still run pex through existing spaces around the perimeter without having to alter the coach much, if at all. At least that's the case on my Kingsley. Obviously it's easy to just use the pipes in the ceiling if they are working, but if you've got to pull new lines, I'd run pex behind cabinets. I will say... it was easier on mine because the rear bedroom came to me dismantled.
 
I have a '77 Palm Beach as well. The headliner was replaced in the mid '90s and is still in great shape so I have not tried to remove it. From my experience looking at other coaches with the headliner removed, its not going to be an easy job.
I would elect to run new pex around the back of the coach which can be done with much less work. However you are now going to have much more piping so waiting for hot water at the kitchen sink is going to dump alot of water down the drain. We mostly run off the fresh water tank and into the black tank (rarely do we have city water and sewage on site). I've seen where others run a return water line back to the fresh water tank so as not to waste fresh water waiting for hot water. I've also seen a water pump from the hot to cold under the kitchen sink that accomplishes the same thing.
My OEM plastic piping is 3/8" so 3/8" pex is large enough since the kitchen sink is small. Also the smaller pipe will deliver hot water faster to the kitchen sink.
 
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Polybutylene Plumbing (the old grey plumbing found in some of our coaches) was phased out many years ago and even banned from residential plumbing in 1995 because it was prone to failure (leak/crack) resulting in mold and other catastrophic issues. I believe the failure was blamed on product breakdown due to chlorine. So you may find/repair one faulty connection - and will soon encounter another.

Although is is not a simple undertaking, replacing ALL of it is the best approach. - I know...that's easy for me to say.

I did a complete gut of my coach and am replacing it all with PEX
 
RF_Burns said:
I have a '77 Palm Beach as well. The headliner was replaced in the mid '90s and is still in great shape so I have not tried to remove it. From my experience looking at other coaches with the headliner removed, its not going to be an easy job.
I would elect to run new pex around the back of the coach which can be done with much less work. However you are now going to have much more piping so waiting for hot water at the kitchen sink is going to dump alot of water down the drain. We mostly run off the fresh water tank and into the black tank (rarely do we have city water and sewage on site). I've seen where others run a return water line back to the fresh water tank so as not to waste fresh water waiting for hot water. I've also seen a water pump from the hot to cold under the kitchen sink that accomplishes the same thing.
My OEM plastic piping is 3/8" so 3/8" pex is large enough since the kitchen sink is small. Also the smaller pipe will deliver hot water faster to the kitchen sink.
Click to expand...
I thought that the main lines running through the ceiling were 1/2" and reduced down to 3/8" before feeding the kitchen faucet? I know that I replaced a section of cracked pipe coming from the city water connection and it was 1/2" and fed into the main line that runs behind the breaker panel and fuse panel area. Please confirm if you meant to rum all 3/8" pex or just reduce from 1/2" to 3/8" at faucet.
You also bring up a good point about wasting water to get hot water to the sink. This is another reason I'm considering trying to open up the ceiling to run as designed.
 
I don't think the length of the pipe running up and over is much shorter than what would run back and around (at least not in my Kingsley- it's only a couple feet of difference, though I'm dealing with a slightly different situation because my PO moved the water heater to under the galley sink). I started looking at swapping out my old polybutylene today, and I decided I'm going to run pex inside metal conduit with access joints in the corners, and then wrap the metal conduit in heat tape and foam insulation. I should be protected from puncture and freezing, and it will be easy to pull/push more pex if that situation were ever to become necessary.
 
Kid,
When I re-plumbed with half-inch pex on my '73 I didn't find it to be too much of a problem, or even that much work, including the over-the-ceiling run. Winterizing isn't much of a deal either. I can't help but comment that your pex inside of conduit with heat tape and insulation sounds labor intensive, expensive and another layer of management in what is a relatively simple system. I would advocate KISS here, with an emphasis on K.
Just my opinion...
Doug
 
dsmithy said:
Kid,
When I re-plumbed with half-inch pex on my '73 I didn't find it to be too much of a problem, or even that much work, including the over-the-ceiling run. Winterizing isn't much of a deal either. I can't help but comment that your pex inside of conduit with heat tape and insulation sounds labor intensive, expensive and another layer of management in what is a relatively simple system. I would advocate KISS here, with an emphasis on K.
Just my opinion...
Doug
Click to expand...

Yeah, but winterizing every week so I can ski during the winter is way more labor intensive than spending a couple days creating a system to keep the pex from freezing. I actually had a shower epiphany this morning, and I think I'm going to use aluminum downspouts for the conduit and tee off one of my heat ducts into the conduit. The rear end and under the galley counter are currently gutted, so there is an open straight shot from the galley sink and dishwasher to the rear and back around and into the wet bath unit.
 
I take your point. Weekly winterizing would be a definite buzzkill. If you have power where you store the coach I'd consideri going with self regulating heat tape. Having camped in our coach down to 0 degrees F. the only thing I had to do was heat tape in the area where the fresh water pump was, because the furnace heat was pretty weak by the time it got there. I likely had 35 years of rodent nests in that duct.

I would think though, that if you are replumbing, a straight run of heat tape on the pex and a spiral wrap of tape would be plenty to prevent freezing inside the coach. That wouldn't make it any harder to fish or pull over the ceiling. The only thing I might be concerned about was the total current draw. The first self regulating heat tape I saw on Amazon was 5 watts a foot. Eighty or ninety feet would get you in the 4-500 watt range when not using the coach. When you're in the coach and heating it I wouldn't think you'd have a problem.

It may well be that I'm talking foolishness since I have a '73 and you've got a '77, Good luck with your project.
Doug
 
dsmithy said:
I take your point. Weekly winterizing would be a definite buzzkill. If you have power where you store the coach I'd consideri going with self regulating heat tape. Having camped in our coach down to 0 degrees F. the only thing I had to do was heat tape in the area where the fresh water pump was, because the furnace heat was pretty weak by the time it got there. I likely had 35 years of rodent nests in that duct.
Click to expand...

Yeah. When I do these "four season" builds (I've been doing them on Airstreams before I got the GMC), I usually move the pump into a cabinet that's more central. That way there is already more "residual" heat, and I can heat a smaller compartment (and hopefully some water lines) instead of heating the whole coach to keep the lines warm. I also make it easy to remove the pump (to take inside) and blow out the lines when I know the temperature is going to drop well below zero.

I'm also liking the idea of aluminum downspouts for furnace ducting since they won't kink or puncture. It would also be easy to use a dryer vent brush to clean them out (if there were ever any blockage like you mention). I know this isn't a possibility for most people with a coach that's already put together, but since I have access right now...


dsmithy said:
I would think though, that if you are replumbing, a straight run of heat tape on the pex and a spiral wrap of tape would be plenty to prevent freezing inside the coach. That wouldn't make it any harder to fish or pull over the ceiling. The only thing I might be concerned about was the total current draw. The first self regulating heat tape I saw on Amazon was 5 watts a foot. Eighty or ninety feet would get you in the 4-500 watt range when not using the coach. When you're in the coach and heating it I wouldn't think you'd have a problem.
Click to expand...

The biggest issue with running up and over is that the ceiling isn't insulated very well. With a conduit for the pex that I can actually pipe heat into, I only have to heat the conduit run instead of the whole coach. I'm thinking if I pipe heat into the plumbing run, I won't even need heat tape (which as you mention, draws some substantial current). It will be interesting to see how much heat I can push into the conduit run with a 12v computer fan and a small electric heater (for down times, not necessarily while using the coach).
 
One last comment.
We've already discussed the possibility of rodent condo's in my heat duct, but I have to mention it is original and is a plastic with spiral wire for "structure." It does pass air pretty well, however, but that air is not very warm by the time it gets to the water pump and water heater on the opposite side of the coach. My point is that it is plastic and a lousy heat conductor but the air is still barely warm by the end of the run. Would your aluminum drain material, which is a great heat conductor, not lose most of the heat in the air its carrying through radiating through the aluminum. It's a guess, but I think so. Lots of new construction has small insulated ducting for its hvac. If I were you I'd do a little research on ducting or a wrap for the conduit run you have in mind.
 
Well... that specific duct wouldn't necessarily be to "move" heat, just to keep the pipes inside it warm, but...

Because the "pipe" is only 3 or 4 inches, it takes advantage of the properties you've already mentioned in newer HVAC (smaller tubes!). Because the interior is smooth and has only two bends (at the corners of the coach, it will move air more easily. Finally, I plan on wrapping the conduit with uxcell 394 mil insulating mat (because I have it on hand) or building the conduit into the polyiso insulation that is going in the back with the bed/desk/storage build.

Though... originally I was going to use aluminum downspout because it would conduct heat from the heat tape well. If I'm not going to use heat tape, I may go back to PVC pipe for the conduit/duct. Less chance of it getting crushed anyway (and I've got a bunch laying around).

I've also got a bunch of insulated, 3 and 4 inch flexible ducting, but since the expense isn't great, I like the idea of a more rigid PVC pipe with a smooth interior. Maybe I'll put a sheath of the flexible ducting over the PVC.

I know the expense of all this wouldn't make much sense if one was buying materials off the shelf, but I get a lot of my supplies from construction surplus and salvage, so the raw materials don't really cost much of anything.
 
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