Motor troubles again!!!

Jim, he said the oil pressure gauge was showing at half when the noise
started and he pulled over.

That is one reason I use a real gauge--I want a little more precision than
"half", but in any case he was looking at the gauge at the time.

No oil to the top of the motor does not mean no oil was getting anywhere
else. There could be lots of things happening here, and the diagnosis will
require looking at (and smelling) the oil and filter. Are there chunks in
the oil or trapped in the filter? What's the compression? If pulling all 8
plug wires, one at a time, didn't eliminate the noise, it's not a rod knock.

Rick "let's not jump to conclusions" Denney

> So, one should have noted low oil pressure.
> Continue to drive without looking at gages is not right.
> I don't know the whole story, but low oil pressure was never discussed.
>

>
> > Jim De. My first phone call would be to S & J in Spokane, Wa. Look
> through
> > your paper work for their engine number, and check for the warranty paper
> > work. Be prepared, and controlled and respectful. They are good people.
> If
> > I can help from here, let me know.
> > Jim Hupy
> > Salem, Or
> > 78 GMC ROYALE 403
> >

> >
> > > OK - lots are thinking it - so I will just come rite out and say it!
> > > Jim Demillia:
> > > Have you contacted the company that installed your "New/Junk" engine?
> > Any
> > > help there? If not - be sure to publish there name and location so we
> > can
> > > all avoid them like the plague!
> > > The revenge might salve your wounds a bit also!
> > > Also, be sure the shop you are at really knows GMC MH engines and their
> > > replacement B 4 you get whistle bit again.
> > > Any number of GMCers on this site can tell you what to look for/be
> > careful
> > > of - don't be afraid to reach out!
> > > Mike/The Corvair a holic
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Jun 5, 2018, at 2:28 PM, Jim DeMellia

> > > >
> > > > Brand new motor is junk. There’s a garage here very competent and
> > > capable that just diagnosed it. No oil getting to top of the motor
> which
> > > means no oil getting anywhere else. I’m beyond livid at this point with
> > the
> > > amount of money we’ve spent in motor swap and hotels and rental cars.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > >> On Jun 5, 2018, at 8:33 AM, John R. Lebetski <
> gransport7087
> > >

> > > >>
> > > >> Best to call Tom at Grandview. If he can't do it he may know others
> > in
> > > the area mechanic pool.
> > > >> --
> > > >> John Lebetski
> > > >> Woodstock, IL
> > > >> 77 Eleganza II
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> GMCnet mailing list
> > > >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > >> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
 
Jimmy, be carefull about throwing too many "rocks" I don't think a motor with
0 (zero) oiling would go much further than just a few miles not something
close to 2000. Maybe the extra oil filter the installing shop put in is now
clogged and its really the installer's fault not the engine builde'rs fault.
--
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
 
Ok, did not read that. thanks.

> Jim, he said the oil pressure gauge was showing at half when the noise
> started and he pulled over.
>
> That is one reason I use a real gauge--I want a little more precision than
> "half", but in any case he was looking at the gauge at the time.
>
> No oil to the top of the motor does not mean no oil was getting anywhere
> else. There could be lots of things happening here, and the diagnosis will
> require looking at (and smelling) the oil and filter. Are there chunks in
> the oil or trapped in the filter? What's the compression? If pulling all 8
> plug wires, one at a time, didn't eliminate the noise, it's not a rod
> knock.
>
> Rick "let's not jump to conclusions" Denney
>
> On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 5:27 PM, Jim Kanomata

>
> > So, one should have noted low oil pressure.
> > Continue to drive without looking at gages is not right.
> > I don't know the whole story, but low oil pressure was never discussed.
> >

> >
> > > Jim De. My first phone call would be to S & J in Spokane, Wa. Look
> > through
> > > your paper work for their engine number, and check for the warranty
> paper
> > > work. Be prepared, and controlled and respectful. They are good people.
> > If
> > > I can help from here, let me know.
> > > Jim Hupy
> > > Salem, Or
> > > 78 GMC ROYALE 403
> > >

> > >
> > > > OK - lots are thinking it - so I will just come rite out and say it!
> > > > Jim Demillia:
> > > > Have you contacted the company that installed your "New/Junk" engine?
> > > Any
> > > > help there? If not - be sure to publish there name and location so
> we
> > > can
> > > > all avoid them like the plague!
> > > > The revenge might salve your wounds a bit also!
> > > > Also, be sure the shop you are at really knows GMC MH engines and
> their
> > > > replacement B 4 you get whistle bit again.
> > > > Any number of GMCers on this site can tell you what to look for/be
> > > careful
> > > > of - don't be afraid to reach out!
> > > > Mike/The Corvair a holic
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > > On Jun 5, 2018, at 2:28 PM, Jim DeMellia <
> j.bonez.designs>

> > > > >
> > > > > Brand new motor is junk. There’s a garage here very competent and
> > > > capable that just diagnosed it. No oil getting to top of the motor
> > which
> > > > means no oil getting anywhere else. I’m beyond livid at this point
> with
> > > the
> > > > amount of money we’ve spent in motor swap and hotels and rental cars.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Jun 5, 2018, at 8:33 AM, John R. Lebetski <
> > gransport7087
> > > >

> > > > >>
> > > > >> Best to call Tom at Grandview. If he can't do it he may know
> others
> > > in
> > > > the area mechanic pool.
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> John Lebetski
> > > > >> Woodstock, IL
> > > > >> 77 Eleganza II
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> GMCnet mailing list
> > > > >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > > >> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jim Kanomata
> > Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> > jimk
> > http://www.appliedgmc.com
> > 1-800-752-7502
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> '73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> Northern Virginia
> Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
 
First Jimmy, I'm really sorry to hear about this happening. I can't imagine what it feels like to have to deal with this on the road. We just wrapped
up a 7 month trip (I think we were planning on meeting at one point, but we missed each other) and I think this easily could've happened to us (or
something like it).

I know you already mentioned the shop, and I believe they have a decent reputation. There aren't too many people out there who can look after this
engine properly, so I think you made the best choice you could've made at the time. However, at the end of the day, things get missed and mistakes
happen.

I think the shop should be willing to work with you, so you may be out a tow bill and some more nights at a hotel. Maybe they'll be willing to work
with you on that?

Maybe your supposed to be where you're at right now. Maybe you missed having a fiery accident. I believe that everything happens for a reason and this
is just a test. No matter how hard it gets, it could always be worse. One day you're going to laugh about this. Let me know if you need help with
anything beyond prayer :)

Shaun

Shaun
--
1977 Palm Beach, 455, mostly stock and original
 
Again. You guys are thus far the best resources/community we’ve ever had the privilege of being a part of and I thank you guys for that. I’ll try and address as much as I can with what I know up to this point.
I realize the factory oil gauges in our rigs aren’t necessarily the most accurate pieces of equipment but they do give a baseline of where things should be. That being said the gauge only showed a slight oil pressure loss (1/16th”) right upon hearing the knock. Where I immediately pulled off the highway and drove a total of 2miles to get us to safe place Incase there was a catastrophic failure I wasn’t stranding us on the side of a busy road.
I’ve reached out to the previous shop that installed the motor as to what our current situation is. More so to touch base with them and let them know what has happened. They are a reputable shop that went out of there way to help us. People are humans mistakes happen but I’m not one to point fingers until I also know all the details. Not to say we didn’t pay for there services but we understood the situation we were in.
The shop the camper is at now also seems competent and capable to work on this and is familiar with our drivetrains. I’m limited to where I can get it towed to using my Good Sam membership without paying out the nose for a tow which we can’t afford.
Jim H I’ve contacted S&J about what’s going on and they are going to contact the shop tomorrow to get a more in depth diagnosis of what they found. Different time zones makes it a little more difficult to get people in contact with each other. I’ve been respectful and polite thus far with Dan and Casey. I have the extended warranty which seems a little thin monetarily when it comes to paying to have a motor swapped out. They seem like genuine guys and hopefully I haven’t come across like an ass talking with them but the compounding of all these situations was frustrating at the time.
Matt C. Again your knowledge is always great to read and a lot to absorb. I’m going to head to the garage in the am and see what they’ve got apart. I’d also like to know where the failure took place. Is it something internal? Was there metal from the previous motor failure still lingering in an oil line? If the top end was starved for oil we wouldn’t have made it out of Utah let alone drive almost 2,000 miles before something reared its ugly head.
Shaun and everyone else thanks for your kind words and encouragement we’ll persevere we always do. Speed bumps are just that, small deterrents for a longer greater destination. Our next task which seems like pulling teeth here in Ohio is to get a rental car to get us back to NH we have a wedding to get to in the coming weeks.


Sent from my iPhone

>
> First Jimmy, I'm really sorry to hear about this happening. I can't imagine what it feels like to have to deal with this on the road. We just wrapped
> up a 7 month trip (I think we were planning on meeting at one point, but we missed each other) and I think this easily could've happened to us (or
> something like it).
>
> I know you already mentioned the shop, and I believe they have a decent reputation. There aren't too many people out there who can look after this
> engine properly, so I think you made the best choice you could've made at the time. However, at the end of the day, things get missed and mistakes
> happen.
>
> I think the shop should be willing to work with you, so you may be out a tow bill and some more nights at a hotel. Maybe they'll be willing to work
> with you on that?
>
> Maybe your supposed to be where you're at right now. Maybe you missed having a fiery accident. I believe that everything happens for a reason and this
> is just a test. No matter how hard it gets, it could always be worse. One day you're going to laugh about this. Let me know if you need help with
> anything beyond prayer :)
>
> Shaun
>
> Shaun
> --
> 1977 Palm Beach, 455, mostly stock and original
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Sorry for your terrible ordeal. Assuming you replaced your last motor because of a rod or main bearing failure did the shop bypass the radiator oil
cooler and install a new external cooler? I would worry a small metal particle from the oil cooler could wipe out a rod bearing in a replacement motor
right about the miles you have traveled. If you have to replace this engine because of failed bearings I would insist on a new external cooler and
probably new oil lines. You could also have them leave off the cooler and oil lines and do this repair when you get home. I would not trust anyone
saying they cleaned the cooler by flushing and blowing it out major trouble on the road is a horrible nightmare .
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
 
Roy,

If you review the oil flow path you'll find that it is impossible for contamination from the oil cooler to get into the engine. All
the flow that returns from the oil cooler passes through the filter before it returns to the engine. UNLESS an incorrect oil filter
with a bypass is installed.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6398-455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path.html

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of roy keen
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 8:33 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Motor troubles again!!!

Sorry for your terrible ordeal. Assuming you replaced your last motor because of a rod or main bearing failure did the shop bypass
the radiator oil cooler and install a new external cooler? I would worry a small metal particle from the oil cooler could wipe out a
rod bearing in a replacement motor right about the miles you have traveled. If you have to replace this engine because of failed
bearings I would insist on a new external cooler and
probably new oil lines. You could also have them leave off the cooler and oil lines and do this repair when you get home. I would
not trust anyone saying they cleaned the cooler by flushing and blowing it out major trouble on the road is a horrible nightmare .
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Jim, I'm pretty sure that I'm closest to Spokane out of this group. I'm in Spokane or driving through here almost every other day. If I need to pick
up/arrange anything in Spokane for you don't hesitate to let me know.
Vadim
--
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA
 
Sorry Rob I can't agree with you that a contaminated oil cooler can't destroy an engine. We have talked about this some time ago no matter what if
there is metal floating around in the oil cooler or lines when the bypass valve opens there is always a chance it can get in the bearings why would
you want to take that chance? I' m not the only one that believes a contaminated cooler can waste an engine I know you are sure it can't but i'm Sure
it can so we will just have to disagree. Anyway it just isn't worth taking a chance of loosing a motor a few thousand miles down the road.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
 
Roy,

Please explain how the contamination from the oil cooler passes through the bypass when the oil cooler is downstream of the bypass
valve?

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p60140-oil-filter-base1.html

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58336-oil-filter-base-cooler-adapter-26amp-3b-filter.html

Ref: Maintenance Manual X-7525 / Section 6 - Engine / Page 6A-2 / Engine Lubrication

455 / 403 Engine Lubrication System

The engine oil pan forms a reservoir for engine oil to provide lubrication and also hydraulic fluid to operate the valve lifters.
Oil pressure for lubrication is furnished by a gear type oil pump that is bolted to the rear main bearing cap and driven by the
camshaft gear through a hexagonal drive shaft. Oil enters the pump through a screened inlet located near the bottom rear of the oil
pan.

PLEASE NOTE WHAT THIS PARAGRAPH SAYS.

The pressurized oil from the pump passes through the engine oil cooler located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located
on the right rear side of the engine block, see Figure 2. The oil filter base has a by-pass valve which in the event of filter
restriction will open at 5.3 to 6.3 psi. It then enters the right oil gallery where it is distributed to the five main bearings. The
right bank valve lifters receive oil from this gallery from eight feed holes that intersect the gallery.

The five camshaft bearings are lubricated from vertical passages intersecting the main bearing oil passages . At the front main
bearing a third passage connects the right main oil gallery to the left gallery which then feeds the left bank of valve lifters.

The engine oil pressure warning light switch is connected to the front of the left oil gallery. The switch is calibrated to turn on
the instrument panel warning light when engine oil pressure is too low. The switch, normally closed, is set to open at 2-6 psi.

The rear oil gallery plug has a .040" orifice to help purge contaminants from the gallery. At the front end of the right gallery, a
small orifice sprays oil to lubricate the fuel pump eccentric cam and the timing chain.

The oil pump and distributor drive gear are lubricated by splash from the rear cam bearing and connecting rod bearings.

The rocker arms and valve tips are lubricated by means of oil furnished through the hydraulic lifters and hollow push-rods. A disc
valve in the lifter meters oil to the push rods.

The connecting rod bearings are oiled by constant oil flow from passages drilled through the crankshaft connecting the main journals
to the rod journals. A groove around each main bearing furnished oil to the drilled crankshaft passages.

Oil returns to the oil pan reservoir from the rocker arms through passages at each end of the cylinder heads. Oil from the valve
lifter compartment returns through clearance holes in the lower portion of the compartment near the camshaft. The timing chain
compartment drains directly into the oil pan.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of roy keen
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 12:25 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Motor troubles again!!!

Sorry Rob I can't agree with you that a contaminated oil cooler can't destroy an engine. We have talked about this some time ago no
matter what if
there is metal floating around in the oil cooler or lines when the bypass valve opens there is always a chance it can get in the
bearings why would
you want to take that chance? I' m not the only one that believes a contaminated cooler can waste an engine I know you are sure it
can't but i'm Sure
it can so we will just have to disagree. Anyway it just isn't worth taking a chance of loosing a motor a few thousand miles down the
road.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Playing devils advocate here Rob, cannot debris pass through the bypass
valve when it is open during cold start etc?

Sully
Coachless
Bellevue

> Roy,
>
> Please explain how the contamination from the oil cooler passes through
> the bypass when the oil cooler is downstream of the bypass
> valve?
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p60140-oil-filter-base1.html
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58336-oil-filter-base-cooler-adapter-26amp-3b-filter.html
>
> Ref: Maintenance Manual X-7525 / Section 6 - Engine / Page 6A-2 / Engine
> Lubrication
>
> 455 / 403 Engine Lubrication System
>
> The engine oil pan forms a reservoir for engine oil to provide lubrication
> and also hydraulic fluid to operate the valve lifters.
> Oil pressure for lubrication is furnished by a gear type oil pump that is
> bolted to the rear main bearing cap and driven by the
> camshaft gear through a hexagonal drive shaft. Oil enters the pump through
> a screened inlet located near the bottom rear of the oil
> pan.
>
> PLEASE NOTE WHAT THIS PARAGRAPH SAYS.
>
> The pressurized oil from the pump passes through the engine oil cooler
> located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located
> on the right rear side of the engine block, see Figure 2. The oil filter
> base has a by-pass valve which in the event of filter
> restriction will open at 5.3 to 6.3 psi. It then enters the right oil
> gallery where it is distributed to the five main bearings. The
> right bank valve lifters receive oil from this gallery from eight feed
> holes that intersect the gallery.
>
> The five camshaft bearings are lubricated from vertical passages
> intersecting the main bearing oil passages . At the front main
> bearing a third passage connects the right main oil gallery to the left
> gallery which then feeds the left bank of valve lifters.
>
> The engine oil pressure warning light switch is connected to the front of
> the left oil gallery. The switch is calibrated to turn on
> the instrument panel warning light when engine oil pressure is too low.
> The switch, normally closed, is set to open at 2-6 psi.
>
> The rear oil gallery plug has a .040" orifice to help purge contaminants
> from the gallery. At the front end of the right gallery, a
> small orifice sprays oil to lubricate the fuel pump eccentric cam and the
> timing chain.
>
> The oil pump and distributor drive gear are lubricated by splash from the
> rear cam bearing and connecting rod bearings.
>
> The rocker arms and valve tips are lubricated by means of oil furnished
> through the hydraulic lifters and hollow push-rods. A disc
> valve in the lifter meters oil to the push rods.
>
> The connecting rod bearings are oiled by constant oil flow from passages
> drilled through the crankshaft connecting the main journals
> to the rod journals. A groove around each main bearing furnished oil to
> the drilled crankshaft passages.
>
> Oil returns to the oil pan reservoir from the rocker arms through passages
> at each end of the cylinder heads. Oil from the valve
> lifter compartment returns through clearance holes in the lower portion of
> the compartment near the camshaft. The timing chain
> compartment drains directly into the oil pan.
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of roy
> keen
> Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 12:25 AM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Motor troubles again!!!
>
> Sorry Rob I can't agree with you that a contaminated oil cooler can't
> destroy an engine. We have talked about this some time ago no
> matter what if
> there is metal floating around in the oil cooler or lines when the bypass
> valve opens there is always a chance it can get in the
> bearings why would
> you want to take that chance? I' m not the only one that believes a
> contaminated cooler can waste an engine I know you are sure it
> can't but i'm Sure
> it can so we will just have to disagree. Anyway it just isn't worth taking
> a chance of loosing a motor a few thousand miles down the
> road.
> --
> Roy Keen
> Minden,NV
> 76 X Glenbrook
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
I had an on highway rod knock that put me in a rest area. Here is a 10 second diagnostic test I would do at this point. Paint a single white stripe on
the ballancer front to back with white-out from the shop office. Start the engine and watch and listen and phone video if possible. If the noise is at
1/2 the speed of the crank, proceed with Matt's valve train diagnosis and repair in situo. If the knock is at crank speed the motor has to come out
for replace/ repair. This will eliminate the guessing and waiting for post mortem results. Good luck and it sure seems you are in warranty.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
Sully,

You're kinda sorta correct.

Oil Flow Path

1) Oil is picked up from the sump by the oil pickup

2) It enters the oil pump where it flows to:
a) the oil filter adapter
b) returns to the inlet of the pump when the relief valve opens

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58337-oil-pump-relief-flow-path.html

3) Enters the oil filter adapter where it flows to:
a) oil cooler adapter - The pressurized oil from the pump passes through the engine oil cooler
located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located on the right rear side of the engine block

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58336-oil-filter-base-cooler-adapter-26amp-3b-filter.html

b) the bypass valve - The oil filter base has a by-pass valve which in the event of filter restriction will open
at 5.3 to 6.3 psi. It then enters the right oil gallery where it is distributed to the five main bearings. The
right bank valve lifters receive oil from this gallery from eight feed holes that intersect the gallery.

Since the bypass valve is upstream of the oil filter it means that the oil bypasses back into the engine BEFORE it goes to the oil
cooler in the radiator. Therefore it is impossible for contamination from the oil cooler to get back into the engine UNLESS an oil
filter with a bypass in it is installed. All the oil from the oil cooler MUST pass through the oil filter.

However, if the bypass valve is open (5.3 to 6.3 psi) contamination in the sump can flow back into the engine.

My theory as to why freshly overhauled engines fail at low mileage is that contamination that is generated by a freshly overhauled
engine gets bypassed and fed back into the engine because the oil cooler is contaminated and the bypass valve never closes because
the pressure is greater than 5.3 to 6.3 psi.

I have made a test fixture that will allow me to force the bypass poppet closed:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6920-oil-flow-test.html

Turning the wing nut moves the screw head down and will close the bypass poppet.

When I perform this test:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/oil-system-flow-testing/p58296-oil-flow-test-schematic.html

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Todd Sullivan
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 8:34 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Motor troubles again!!!

Playing devils advocate here Rob, cannot debris pass through the bypass
valve when it is open during cold start etc?

Sully
Coachless
Bellevue

> Roy,
>
> Please explain how the contamination from the oil cooler passes through
> the bypass when the oil cooler is downstream of the bypass
> valve?
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p60140-oil-filter-base1.html
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58336-oil-filter-base-cooler-adapter-26amp-3b-filter.html
>
> Ref: Maintenance Manual X-7525 / Section 6 - Engine / Page 6A-2 / Engine
> Lubrication
>
> 455 / 403 Engine Lubrication System
>
> The engine oil pan forms a reservoir for engine oil to provide lubrication
> and also hydraulic fluid to operate the valve lifters.
> Oil pressure for lubrication is furnished by a gear type oil pump that is
> bolted to the rear main bearing cap and driven by the
> camshaft gear through a hexagonal drive shaft. Oil enters the pump through
> a screened inlet located near the bottom rear of the oil
> pan.
>
> PLEASE NOTE WHAT THIS PARAGRAPH SAYS.
>
> The pressurized oil from the pump passes through the engine oil cooler
> located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located
> on the right rear side of the engine block, see Figure 2. The oil filter
> base has a by-pass valve which in the event of filter
> restriction will open at 5.3 to 6.3 psi. It then enters the right oil
> gallery where it is distributed to the five main bearings. The
> right bank valve lifters receive oil from this gallery from eight feed
> holes that intersect the gallery.
>
> The five camshaft bearings are lubricated from vertical passages
> intersecting the main bearing oil passages . At the front main
> bearing a third passage connects the right main oil gallery to the left
> gallery which then feeds the left bank of valve lifters.
>
> The engine oil pressure warning light switch is connected to the front of
> the left oil gallery. The switch is calibrated to turn on
> the instrument panel warning light when engine oil pressure is too low.
> The switch, normally closed, is set to open at 2-6 psi.
>
> The rear oil gallery plug has a .040" orifice to help purge contaminants
> from the gallery. At the front end of the right gallery, a
> small orifice sprays oil to lubricate the fuel pump eccentric cam and the
> timing chain.
>
> The oil pump and distributor drive gear are lubricated by splash from the
> rear cam bearing and connecting rod bearings.
>
> The rocker arms and valve tips are lubricated by means of oil furnished
> through the hydraulic lifters and hollow push-rods. A disc
> valve in the lifter meters oil to the push rods.
>
> The connecting rod bearings are oiled by constant oil flow from passages
> drilled through the crankshaft connecting the main journals
> to the rod journals. A groove around each main bearing furnished oil to
> the drilled crankshaft passages.
>
> Oil returns to the oil pan reservoir from the rocker arms through passages
> at each end of the cylinder heads. Oil from the valve
> lifter compartment returns through clearance holes in the lower portion of
> the compartment near the camshaft. The timing chain
> compartment drains directly into the oil pan.
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of roy
> keen
> Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 12:25 AM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Motor troubles again!!!
>
> Sorry Rob I can't agree with you that a contaminated oil cooler can't
> destroy an engine. We have talked about this some time ago no
> matter what if
> there is metal floating around in the oil cooler or lines when the bypass
> valve opens there is always a chance it can get in the
> bearings why would
> you want to take that chance? I' m not the only one that believes a
> contaminated cooler can waste an engine I know you are sure it
> can't but i'm Sure
> it can so we will just have to disagree. Anyway it just isn't worth taking
> a chance of loosing a motor a few thousand miles down the
> road.
> --
> Roy Keen
> Minden,NV
> 76 X Glenbrook
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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It has also been mentioned that on initial start-up, the oil is cold, thus thicker, and likely causes the bypass to open until oil warms up.

A fresh rebuild that has any chance of containing residual debris will likely pass that debris straight through the oil system in the first minute or 2 of running.

This is why selecting an appropriate oil for initial run-in is important.

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

>
> Sully,
>
> You're kinda sorta correct.
>
> Oil Flow Path
>
> 1) Oil is picked up from the sump by the oil pickup
>
> 2) It enters the oil pump where it flows to:
> a) the oil filter adapter
> b) returns to the inlet of the pump when the relief valve opens
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58337-oil-pump-relief-flow-path.html
>
> 3) Enters the oil filter adapter where it flows to:
> a) oil cooler adapter - The pressurized oil from the pump passes through the engine oil cooler
> located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located on the right rear side of the engine block
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58336-oil-filter-base-cooler-adapter-26amp-3b-filter.html
>
> b) the bypass valve - The oil filter base has a by-pass valve which in the event of filter restriction will open
> at 5.3 to 6.3 psi. It then enters the right oil gallery where it is distributed to the five main bearings. The
> right bank valve lifters receive oil from this gallery from eight feed holes that intersect the gallery.
>
> Since the bypass valve is upstream of the oil filter it means that the oil bypasses back into the engine BEFORE it goes to the oil
> cooler in the radiator. Therefore it is impossible for contamination from the oil cooler to get back into the engine UNLESS an oil
> filter with a bypass in it is installed. All the oil from the oil cooler MUST pass through the oil filter.
>
> However, if the bypass valve is open (5.3 to 6.3 psi) contamination in the sump can flow back into the engine.
>
> My theory as to why freshly overhauled engines fail at low mileage is that contamination that is generated by a freshly overhauled
> engine gets bypassed and fed back into the engine because the oil cooler is contaminated and the bypass valve never closes because
> the pressure is greater than 5.3 to 6.3 psi.
>
> I have made a test fixture that will allow me to force the bypass poppet closed:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6920-oil-flow-test.html
>
> Turning the wing nut moves the screw head down and will close the bypass poppet.
>
> When I perform this test:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/oil-system-flow-testing/p58296-oil-flow-test-schematic.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Todd Sullivan
> Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 8:34 AM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Motor troubles again!!!
>
> Playing devils advocate here Rob, cannot debris pass through the bypass
> valve when it is open during cold start etc?
>
> Sully
> Coachless
> Bellevue
>

>>
>> Roy,
>>
>> Please explain how the contamination from the oil cooler passes through
>> the bypass when the oil cooler is downstream of the bypass
>> valve?
>>
>>
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p60140-oil-filter-base1.html
>>
>>
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58336-oil-filter-base-cooler-adapter-26amp-3b-filter.html
>>
>> Ref: Maintenance Manual X-7525 / Section 6 - Engine / Page 6A-2 / Engine
>> Lubrication
>>
>> 455 / 403 Engine Lubrication System
>>
>> The engine oil pan forms a reservoir for engine oil to provide lubrication
>> and also hydraulic fluid to operate the valve lifters.
>> Oil pressure for lubrication is furnished by a gear type oil pump that is
>> bolted to the rear main bearing cap and driven by the
>> camshaft gear through a hexagonal drive shaft. Oil enters the pump through
>> a screened inlet located near the bottom rear of the oil
>> pan.
>>
>> PLEASE NOTE WHAT THIS PARAGRAPH SAYS.
>>
>> The pressurized oil from the pump passes through the engine oil cooler
>> located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located
>> on the right rear side of the engine block, see Figure 2. The oil filter
>> base has a by-pass valve which in the event of filter
>> restriction will open at 5.3 to 6.3 psi. It then enters the right oil
>> gallery where it is distributed to the five main bearings. The
>> right bank valve lifters receive oil from this gallery from eight feed
>> holes that intersect the gallery.
>>
>> The five camshaft bearings are lubricated from vertical passages
>> intersecting the main bearing oil passages . At the front main
>> bearing a third passage connects the right main oil gallery to the left
>> gallery which then feeds the left bank of valve lifters.
>>
>> The engine oil pressure warning light switch is connected to the front of
>> the left oil gallery. The switch is calibrated to turn on
>> the instrument panel warning light when engine oil pressure is too low.
>> The switch, normally closed, is set to open at 2-6 psi.
>>
>> The rear oil gallery plug has a .040" orifice to help purge contaminants
>> from the gallery. At the front end of the right gallery, a
>> small orifice sprays oil to lubricate the fuel pump eccentric cam and the
>> timing chain.
>>
>> The oil pump and distributor drive gear are lubricated by splash from the
>> rear cam bearing and connecting rod bearings.
>>
>> The rocker arms and valve tips are lubricated by means of oil furnished
>> through the hydraulic lifters and hollow push-rods. A disc
>> valve in the lifter meters oil to the push rods.
>>
>> The connecting rod bearings are oiled by constant oil flow from passages
>> drilled through the crankshaft connecting the main journals
>> to the rod journals. A groove around each main bearing furnished oil to
>> the drilled crankshaft passages.
>>
>> Oil returns to the oil pan reservoir from the rocker arms through passages
>> at each end of the cylinder heads. Oil from the valve
>> lifter compartment returns through clearance holes in the lower portion of
>> the compartment near the camshaft. The timing chain
>> compartment drains directly into the oil pan.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>> The Pedantic Mechanic
>> Sydney, Australia
>> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of roy
>> keen
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 12:25 AM
>> To: gmclist
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Motor troubles again!!!
>>
>> Sorry Rob I can't agree with you that a contaminated oil cooler can't
>> destroy an engine. We have talked about this some time ago no
>> matter what if
>> there is metal floating around in the oil cooler or lines when the bypass
>> valve opens there is always a chance it can get in the
>> bearings why would
>> you want to take that chance? I' m not the only one that believes a
>> contaminated cooler can waste an engine I know you are sure it
>> can't but i'm Sure
>> it can so we will just have to disagree. Anyway it just isn't worth taking
>> a chance of loosing a motor a few thousand miles down the
>> road.
>> --
>> Roy Keen
>> Minden,NV
>> 76 X Glenbrook
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Can one of you clarify something for me:
The oil system description states that the by-pass valve in the oil cooler housing opens at 5.3-6.3 PSI. From what I have seen on my own coach, the
oil pump puts out pressure of 37-45 PSI (that's what the DigiGauge reads). That means that the entire oil system is pressurized to at least that
amount. How does that affect the by-pass valve? Does this means it gets open right away and some oil by-passes by filter at all times, or does it
mean that by-pass valve opens ONLY when the pressure DIFFERENTIAL between the filter intake and output is greater than 5.3-6.3 PSI, regardless of what
the system oil pressure is?
--
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA
 
Vadim,

The bypass valve in the oil filter adapter opens when the pressure going to the oil cooler and filter is 5.3 to 6.3 pounds per
square inch higher than the pressure returning from the oil cooler and filter.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Vadim Jitkov
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2018 8:06 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Motor troubles again!!!

Can one of you clarify something for me:
The oil system description states that the by-pass valve in the oil cooler housing opens at 5.3-6.3 PSI. From what I have seen on
my own coach, the oil pump puts out pressure of 37-45 PSI (that's what the DigiGauge reads). That means that the entire oil system
is pressurized to at least that amount. How does that affect the by-pass valve? Does this means it gets open right away and some
oil by-passes by filter at all times, or does it
mean that by-pass valve opens ONLY when the pressure DIFFERENTIAL between the filter intake and output is greater than 5.3-6.3 PSI,
regardless of what the system oil pressure is?
--
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Rob,
Thank you for the clarification. That low PSI number bothered me. Now it makes perfect sense - dirty filter = low oil pass though the filter, thus a
need to by-pass in order not to starve the engine of oil.
Thank you again.
I have to add one more thing - collectively, of you folks here on the forum are an amazing repository of knowledge. Your willingness to share that
knowledge is unparalleled. Glad to have found you.
V.
--
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA
 
Vadim,

You're welcome. We're all dedicated to keeping these "old gals" on the road for as long as possible!

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Vadim Jitkov
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2018 10:15 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Motor troubles again!!!

Rob,
Thank you for the clarification. That low PSI number bothered me. Now it makes perfect sense - dirty filter = low oil pass though
the filter, thus a need to by-pass in order not to starve the engine of oil.
Thank you again.
I have to add one more thing - collectively, of you folks here on the forum are an amazing repository of knowledge. Your willingness
to share that knowledge is unparalleled. Glad to have found you.
V.
--
Vadim Jitkov
 
Saw this on the Corvette forum, as it relates to the oil filter bypass valve.
And the Olds is set at only 5 PSI.

"Today's engine has very tight tolerances, two stage oil pumps and high flow lubrication system requirements. The proper match of oil filter to engine
application is more
important than it has ever been in the past. The use of a replacement oil filter with an internal bypass valve opening pressure specifications of 15
PSI (100 kPa) or less,
allows debris to circulate in the engine causing damage to bearings and other tight tolerances areas, which may result in premature engine failure."

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/4119585-oil-filter-bypass-valve-is-important.html
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/attachments/c7-z06-discussion/48268771d1522338334-oil-filter-bypass-valve-is-important-2012-2017-corvette_-service-bulletin_-17-na-157.pdf
--
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
 
Bill,

I'm sorry but in my opinion the information referenced is irrelevant to the Olds 455 and 403 as both use oil filters that DO NOT
have bypasses in them.

The bypass is located in the oil filter adapter tat bolts directly to the side of the engine block:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p60140-oil-filter-base1.html

I would suggest you review this sequence of photos:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6398-455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path.html

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Bill Wevers
Sent: Friday, June 8, 2018 11:31 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Motor troubles again!!!

Saw this on the Corvette forum, as it relates to the oil filter bypass valve.
And the Olds is set at only 5 PSI.

"Today's engine has very tight tolerances, two stage oil pumps and high flow lubrication system requirements. The proper match of
oil filter to engine application is more important than it has ever been in the past. The use of a replacement oil filter with an
internal bypass valve opening pressure specifications of 15 PSI (100 kPa) or less, allows debris to circulate in the engine causing
damage to bearings and other tight tolerances areas, which may result in premature engine failure."

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/4119585-oil-filter-bypass-valve-is-important.html
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/attachments/c7-z06-discussion/48268771d1522338334-oil-filter-bypass-valve-is-important-2012-201
7-corvette_-service-bulletin_-17-na-157.pdf
--
Bill Wevers
 
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