Looking for help and support with EBL Flash system

[dbrannon79]

Hello all, I'm new to the forum here. Just stumbled across this site while trying to search and find any information I can about the EBL Flash ecm. don't know if this is the right place to post since this isn't for a motor home. It's for an older 1968 Chevy C10 with a 250 straight 6 and 3 speed manual trans.

My son just bought it last week and we have been trying to figure out the EBL tune on it. it's tune is based off from a 4.3 v6 but it's running rich. I have been trying to learn as much as I can about the EBL by reading online and finding the original website though the wayback machine.

I stumbled here and found @RF_Burns posted the last update (Thank you for that) and see there is a possibility of continued support and production through Xfire Performance. This is great news! I really appreciate all the work that went into this and keeping it alive.

My first question is, would it be ok by the admins along with others here to seek help here since this isn't a motor home?

Since I found the V2.7 update I was also wondering if the system I have will be able to use the update posted. I believe this is the EBL Flash not a Flash 2. it uses what looks like an old telephone cable connected to an adapter which converts it to a USB for the laptop. I have not found any numbers on the ECM which is painted black and looks like it came as a complete kit from DynamicEFI rather than a DIY setup.

As for the engine running rich. otherwise it runs good. no timing issues that I can tell. If I disconnect one of the two injectors in the TBI the engine will straighten up and run almost perfect. Maybe a little too lean for any acceleration. I connected a fuel pressure test guage to the pressure line and getting a steady 18 PSI. iirc pressure should be around 11 or so for TBI. So what I tried is taking my pliers and pinching the hose on my test gauge T on the supply side allowing the pressure to drop down to about 10 PSI restricting some of the fuel. as soon as I did this with both injectors connected, it straightened up and ran good, though I was not able to move the throttle while holding my pliers.

The truck has sat for several years long enough for the fuel in the tank to go stale along with the fuel pump to go south. the previous owner cleaned all this out and replaced the fuel pump before my son bought it. My first thought is possibly the pressure regulator and or injectors have some gummy old fuel or varnish stuck inside. I ordered a GM TBI rebuild kit for it and plan to do that this weekend.

In hopes of this fixing the fuel pressure and any chance of varnish in the TBI, I was using the EBL utility to calculate the BPC for the engine just to verify what is in the bin file on the ECM. when I loaded the bin I extracted from the ECM (using EBL_v31.xdf supplied by the PO) the BPC vs VAC table is set to 181 across the board. using the utility calculator entering 250ci with 45 #/hr injectors that are factory for a 4.3l (verified the injectors in the TBI) with a 11 psi fuel pressure I get 191, with 18 psi I get 150. the base tune bin for a 4.3 has 181 same as what is set in the bin which is loaded on the ECM.

I feel like this might be were the issue is for the running too rich condition. When I say running rich, when you start the engine cold (60 degrees outside) it runs rough and blows black soot from the tail pipe acting like it's running full choke. as it warms up it gets better but still acts as if it's running half choked.

I don't see any malfunction indicators on the whatsup app and all data from the sensors seem like all of the electronics are fine.

I'm hoping others here have some experience with the EBL and have some advice on where I should be looking or starting becides making sure the throttle body is clean and fuel pressure is correct.

 

[RF_Burns]

The BPC sets the reference for the fueling tables. If you are sure you have 45 Pound per Hour (pph) injectors and measure 18 PSI fuel pressure, then I would use the 150 number the EBL Utility gave you. Save this to a new Bin and load the new Bin in a different Bin memory number. I use Bin 0 (Zero) for my best known good Bin, then I cycle my test Bins in slots 1 through 7 cycling them, so I can always go back one or more changes. TunerPro will increment the Bin ID number and the file name automatically.

Then do a VE Learn so the EBL can learn a new fuel table. Read the instructions you downloaded from the Web Archive on how to do the VE Learn and how to Flash the updated Bin.

On the Diagnostic Display, there is a graph of the O2 sensor. It should be switching front high to low and back when the O2 sensor is reading Stoich (~14.7) AFR.

Last summer a group of us GMCer's were travelling together. I was following one particular coach and noticed a strong smell of gasoline. At first I was worried it was our coach, but I could not find anything. Then the coach in front of us said they needed to stop for gasoline again, but we still had 3/4 full. We then noticed it was his exhaust that smelled of fuel. He also has the EBL, so we checked things on the WUD. The EBL was commanding lean while the O2 sensor was stuck at rich. Turned out the O2 sensor had been damaged. He had a spare sensor and 15 minutes later we were back on the road all good again.

 

[billvv]

Another place for EBL help is the 'Third-Generation F-body Message Board, and this search on post titles with 'EBL'

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/search.php?searchid=13530997

There is a single thread that covered much of the support for the EBL,. The developer of the EBL, Bob Raucher, is a moderator of this sub-forum and provided direct support on this thread. It has been converted to a searchable PDF and is available here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-prom/790661-ebl-main-thread-searchable.html

 

[dbrannon79]

Thank you for the help.

That was one other question I had. if I needed to replace sensors like the O2, how would I know what the correct sensor to get and if it would be available through a local auto parts store.

The way I was able to ID the injectors was looking at the colors on the top. yellow / blue. looking online shows them to be from a factory 4.3l iirc those are 45#/hr injectors.

 

[dbrannon79]

The BPC sets the reference for the fueling tables. If you are sure you have 45 Pound per Hour (pph) injectors and measure 18 PSI fuel pressure, then I would use the 150 number the EBL Utility gave you. Save this to a new Bin and load the new Bin in a different Bin memory number. I use Bin 0 (Zero) for my best known good Bin, then I cycle my test Bins in slots 1 through 7 cycling them, so I can always go back one or more changes. TunerPro will increment the Bin ID number and the file name automatically.

Then do a VE Learn so the EBL can learn a new fuel table. Read the instructions you downloaded from the Web Archive on how to do the VE Learn and how to Flash the updated Bin.

On the Diagnostic Display, there is a graph of the O2 sensor. It should be switching front high to low and back when the O2 sensor is reading Stoich (~14.7) AFR.

Last summer a group of us GMCer's were travelling together. I was following one particular coach and noticed a strong smell of gasoline. At first I was worried it was our coach, but I could not find anything. Then the coach in front of us said they needed to stop for gasoline again, but we still had 3/4 full. We then noticed it was his exhaust that smelled of fuel. He also has the EBL, so we checked things on the WUD. The EBL was commanding lean while the O2 sensor was stuck at rich. Turned out the O2 sensor had been damaged. He had a spare sensor and 15 minutes later we were back on the road all good again.

Question...

on the EBL utility it also gives me values for BST vs Boost. do I need to adjust these values in the bin as well? I don't see much documentation on this. looking in the tables in tunerpro all I can find are BST - BPC vs Boost 2-bar and for 3-bar. on the bin that is in the EBL both tables are set to 181 same as what the BPC vs VAC table was set to. The EBL utility gives me a value of 150 for everything.

 

[dbrannon79]

I only changed the one table BPC vs VAC to 150 and it's running much better. still too rich on a cold start being it's 50 deg outside. After it warmed up it cleaned up and is running better.

I did a short VE learn and saw all of the areas that it corrected are a -10. Maybe I should open up the VE tables in tunerpro and lower the entire table by 10% and see what that does. O2 sensor is cycling low to high but is mostly reading in the 800 mv range. iirc that is an indication of being slightly rich still.

 

[RF_Burns]

I only changed the one table BPC vs VAC to 150 and it's running much better. still too rich on a cold start being it's 50 deg outside. After it warmed up it cleaned up and is running better.

I did a short VE learn and saw all of the areas that it corrected are a -10. Maybe I should open up the VE tables in tunerpro and lower the entire table by 10% and see what that does. O2 sensor is cycling low to high but is mostly reading in the 800 mv range. iirc that is an indication of being slightly rich still.

You can just save that VE Learn and flash it into the next Bin slot, Then make that slot the active Bin and do a learn off of it.

Once you have several VE learn sessions, then open the Bin in Tuner Pro and look at the VE tables in the Graph mode. From there you can smooth out the curve and save it. Then Flash it and do another VE learn.

I've been running EBL on my GMC with a 455 for about 15 years. I still do a VE learn and update a couple times a year... just because I can!

 

[dbrannon79]

I will do that. I had thought that since every correction that showed up was a -10 I figured try lowering it over the entire table and try again. I only did the short learn with it idling in the driveway, haven't taken it out on the road yet.

still wondering if I should go though the throttle body and replace the regulator diaphragm though before getting too far into the VE learns.. Mainly since the fuel pressure is at 18 and according to the fuel pump specs (P4601HP) it's only supposed to push 9-16. I'm only assuming the pump is giving all it can and the regulator is not "regulating"

I did try lowering the VE table by 10% and re-run a VE learn on it, but it shows almost the same thing at mostly -10 for the corrections. I also have a lot of spark knock counts too, but the exhaust manifold is leaking where the intake and exhaust bolt together. figured those counts are possibly coming from that leaking gasket.

New intake and exhaust gaskets should arrive tomorrow sometime, but not sure if I will be able to get them replaced this weekend. Weather is supposed to get down into the 30's on Saturday!

Here is a screenshot I took of the VE learn after I lowered the VE table by 10% and one of the spark knock counts.

Should I go ahead and install the rebuild kit for the throttle body replacing the regulator first and maybe seal up the exhaust before going too much further on the VE learns?

 

[RF_Burns]

It's been a while since I've gotten deep into the EFI and we are away so I don't have all my documentation with me.
There might be a correction limit setting of 10, but I don't recall. Nice thing is you can make that change and if it goes sideways you still can revert to the last good Bin and carry on.

Knock counts can be triggered by mechanical noise like an exhaust pipe rattling against the frame.

Lowering your fuel pressure back to OEM will lower the PPH rating of the injectors. You may want to get that in order before spending too much time on fuel tables.

 

[dbrannon79]

we pulled off the throttle body and dismantled it. found some varnish up inside the regulator and in some of the passages. couldn't get the injectors to pop loose from the body so it's all sitting in a hot steamy bath in my ultrasonic cleaner. I will try again after it's bath to remove them for further cleaning.

The diaphragm was still somewhat limber but I also found where the adjustment is too. once it's all cleaned up and new diaphragm and gaskets installed we can check pressures and see if it needs any adjustment.

 

[dbrannon79]

Got it all back together just in time for the sun to go down! My son and I rebuilt the throttle body as well as replaced the intake / exhaust manifold gaskets. checked for fuel leaks and fired the engine up.

seemed to run smooth, fuel pressure is now showing right at 16 psi and stays steady running the throttle so I figure leave it there. The fuel pump seems to handle it and keep it steady. No more exhaust leak and it a LOT quieter. Have not reset the BPC yet, but overall it seems happy. I will reset the BPC tomorrow and begin VE learns on it and see what happens as well as watch to see if the spark knock counts decrease.

we took it out for a drive as it is now and seems to be running a whole lot better than it was. Still has lots of work to do, but now I think the worst it over.

 

[EricS]

I would have suggested that you STOP all tuning until you have the exhaust leaks fixed, but I now see that you have fixed the leaks. The O2 sensor will not have be giving accurate feedback, so any changes you made will have to be changed again.

It is my understanding that there are few differences in O2 sensors. Heated, wide band, and narrow band. A universal sensor will work fine.

Does your TB have an adjustable regulator? If not, I'm pretty sure you can put one on (in) it.

 

[dbrannon79]

I know it's been a little bit, but we got all the leaks fixed and it's running great after setting up BPC.

Yesterday we decied to drive the truck out on the freeway out of town. the truck did good although we quickly discovered that it's down on power and would not keep up or maintain speed on small inclines. I believe this to be possibly with timing. the spark advance setting in the bin are set the same as for a 4.3 v6 and I would think that for a 250 l6 would be different.

I would like to get some help learning how to set up the correct timing tables for this engine.

to my knowledge for a 250 l6 engine, base timing should be around 6-8 deg and max advance would be around 36-38 deg.

Here is what tuner pro shows in the bin for what is set currently, how would I go about setting up the SA (spark advance for this 250 engine?





As you can see I have my compare bin in there for a 4.3 5 speed and they are all the same. I wish there was a utility somewhere I could enter initial and max advance numbers in and it would generate tables I could use as a starting point similar to how BPC works. This or I am overlooking something.

 

[dbrannon79]

I suppose the other side to this is can a normal vacuum advance distributor be installed with the EBL system and function. There isn't hardly any info out there for having EFI on a 250 l6. if a normal HEI dist with vacuum advance was installed, would that reek havoc setting trouble codes and cause a fuel derate or can it work in conjunction and not have to mess with SA tables for this engine.

 

[RF_Burns]

I suppose the other side to this is can a normal vacuum advance distributor be installed with the EBL system and function. There isn't hardly any info out there for having EFI on a 250 l6. if a normal HEI dist with vacuum advance was installed, would that reek havoc setting trouble codes and cause a fuel derate or can it work in conjunction and not have to mess with SA tables for this engine.

You can run the EBL with a standard mechanical distributor, either HEI or points... BUT you still need a "Tach" input at 5 volts, NOT 12V pulse you get from the distributor primary.

DO NOT connect the EBL or a 7747 ECM Tach input directly to the coil Tach connection or you will damage it!!

Howell EFI for throttle bodies included a small circuit board inside their wiring harness to accomplish the 12V to 5V transition.

 

[dbrannon79]

I was urged today by some friends to try and figure out the spark advance tables, learning them and how to work them. so with that, I need to soak in all the info I can on how to build the SA tables for this along with the other constraints to make it work properly! if you have any pointers or knowledge, it would be much appreciated.

other than this, don't know if this is in any way related to timing, fueling or all of the above.. I was studying the wire diagram that was provided by the original owner of the truck and then remembering that while I was laying underneath it a while back doing other maintenance I noticed that the speed sensor that is fitted onto the speedo cable at the trans had the wires cut.

looking at the diagram I decided to have a look under the dash again and traced the VSS wire (pin A10) and found it also cut. I soon realized that the DRAC had been cut and removed from the truck so the ECM cannot see a speed signal. I got on ebay and ordered a DRAC with pigtail connectors and plan to install once it arrives. I have modified the DRAC's in the past to account for gear ratios and tire sizes, so I will most likely have to do the same thing to this one too in order to get a proper and accurate signal to the ECM.

Here is the diagram that was provided by the PO when we got the truck.

 

[dbrannon79]

Not sure, but I feel like this might help get a base table going for the EBL but I need to understand some of the terms on it. One being "idle advance". to my understanding a 250 l6 should have a base timing of between 6-8 deg and a max advance of between 36-38 deg. most everything I find online deals with a vacuum advance but the setup on this engine has no vacuum or mechanical advance, it's all done by the ECM. the distributor is set (to my knowledge) at 0 tdc, the ECM takes over from there.

I found this spreadsheet on the thirdgen forums

Spark Advance table example needed - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

DIY PROM - Spark Advance table example needed - Trying to understand the sa tables vs actual engine excelleration vs mph at the foot pedal. Found this graph from older thread here and compared it to my bin which is a lot different. Can there be a good/simple reason?...

www.thirdgen.org

 

[billvv]

The base timing of the distributor (with the EBL disconnected) should match the Initial SA set in the EBL so that the EBL knows how much actual advance to add, so I'd check the actual base timing of the distributor.

 

[Keith V]

You can run the EBL with a standard mechanical distributor, either HEI or points... BUT you still need a "Tach" input at 5 volts, NOT 12V pulse you get from the distributor primary.

DO NOT connect the EBL or a 7747 ECM Tach input directly to the coil Tach connection or you will damage it!!

Howell EFI for throttle bodies included a small circuit board inside their wiring harness to accomplish the 12V to 5V transition.

wait what?
Does this apply to the Tach signal from an HEI distributor?
I'm pretty sure I just ran it directly to the ECM

 

[billvv]

If you used the HEI electronic distributor with the purple/white lead you're OK it seems. Bruce caution was about the mechanical one(s).