I am looking for a magic bullet

> > Try this: boil a kettle of water. Use the freeze spray or dry ice on the line. Isolate the back of the nut with tape so when you pour the
> > boiling water on it it hits the nut but not the line. Freeze the line, boil the nut, take a small dead blow hammer and whack the nut around (if
> > you can reach it) and see if it win't come loose. The idea is to get the nut hot - boiling is usually plenty - while freezing and thereby
> > shrinking the line. Couple of whacks to loosen it, or Whatsisname's trick of just a >bit< of tightening then loosen. The only line I've so far
> > been unable to loosen was the upper trans cooler on my 23' when I recored the radiator. Go figure.
> >
> > --johnny
>
>
> Johnny
>
>
> if remember correctly from a physics class when you heat a donut shaped object (the nut) the inside diameter actually gets smaller, it is a
> classic demo of a non-intuitive situation. The donut shape expands in both directions inward and outward as it is heated. If there was a way to
> chill just one of the pieces without chilling the other like putting the dry ice on the line a foot away from the nut. Just a thought.
>
> I got lucky, several applications of PB Blaster and jerking the wrench back and forth got the lines loose from the hoses. Amen to anti-seize.


Tom, you are entirely correct on the effects of heating and cooling. The super heating and shock cooling I'm doing causes the items to shrink at
different rates and hopefully allows some of the penetrating oil to penetrate. On the three I have not been able to get loose yet, I plan to try
super cooling them with dry ice and hopefully shrinking them.

I have never tried this approach before. The dry ice place is only about 12 miles away So I plan to drive over there, refill my borrowed acetylene
bottle and get some dry ice next week.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Although I haven’t tried this myself, I have been told by an old family friend that water works quite well at helping loosen rusted threads. He said water helped make the rust, and will also help loosen it. I’ve also read similar comments in some old gunsmithing books.

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

>

>>> Try this: boil a kettle of water. Use the freeze spray or dry ice on the line. Isolate the back of the nut with tape so when you pour the
>>> boiling water on it it hits the nut but not the line. Freeze the line, boil the nut, take a small dead blow hammer and whack the nut around (if
>>> you can reach it) and see if it win't come loose. The idea is to get the nut hot - boiling is usually plenty - while freezing and thereby
>>> shrinking the line. Couple of whacks to loosen it, or Whatsisname's trick of just a >bit< of tightening then loosen. The only line I've so far
>>> been unable to loosen was the upper trans cooler on my 23' when I recored the radiator. Go figure.
>>>
>>> --johnny
>>
>>
>> Johnny
>>
>>
>> if remember correctly from a physics class when you heat a donut shaped object (the nut) the inside diameter actually gets smaller, it is a
>> classic demo of a non-intuitive situation. The donut shape expands in both directions inward and outward as it is heated. If there was a way to
>> chill just one of the pieces without chilling the other like putting the dry ice on the line a foot away from the nut. Just a thought.
>>
>> I got lucky, several applications of PB Blaster and jerking the wrench back and forth got the lines loose from the hoses. Amen to anti-seize.
>
>
> Tom, you are entirely correct on the effects of heating and cooling. The super heating and shock cooling I'm doing causes the items to shrink at
> different rates and hopefully allows some of the penetrating oil to penetrate. On the three I have not been able to get loose yet, I plan to try
> super cooling them with dry ice and hopefully shrinking them.
>
> I have never tried this approach before. The dry ice place is only about 12 miles away So I plan to drive over there, refill my borrowed acetylene
> bottle and get some dry ice next week.
>
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
How are you suggesting that I apply the water?
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
After applying heat to a fitting, try adding some candle wax. It will wick
into the threads and they will loosen.
I've had a lot of success with this method. Don't get caught snitching the
candle from the house. LOL

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Les Burt"
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 12:14 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet

> Although I haven’t tried this myself, I have been told by an old family
> friend that water works quite well at helping loosen rusted threads. He
> said water helped make the rust, and will also help loosen it. I’ve also
> read similar comments in some old gunsmithing books.
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> '75 Eleganza 26'
>
>

>>

>>>> Try this: boil a kettle of water. Use the freeze spray or dry ice on
>>>> the line. Isolate the back of the nut with tape so when you pour the
>>>> boiling water on it it hits the nut but not the line. Freeze the line,
>>>> boil the nut, take a small dead blow hammer and whack the nut around
>>>> (if
>>>> you can reach it) and see if it win't come loose. The idea is to get
>>>> the nut hot - boiling is usually plenty - while freezing and thereby
>>>> shrinking the line. Couple of whacks to loosen it, or Whatsisname's
>>>> trick of just a >bit< of tightening then loosen. The only line I've so
>>>> far
>>>> been unable to loosen was the upper trans cooler on my 23' when I
>>>> recored the radiator. Go figure.
>>>>
>>>> --johnny
>>>
>>>
>>> Johnny
>>>
>>>
>>> if remember correctly from a physics class when you heat a donut shaped
>>> object (the nut) the inside diameter actually gets smaller, it is a
>>> classic demo of a non-intuitive situation. The donut shape expands in
>>> both directions inward and outward as it is heated. If there was a way
>>> to
>>> chill just one of the pieces without chilling the other like putting the
>>> dry ice on the line a foot away from the nut. Just a thought.
>>>
>>> I got lucky, several applications of PB Blaster and jerking the wrench
>>> back and forth got the lines loose from the hoses. Amen to anti-seize.
>>
>>
>> Tom, you are entirely correct on the effects of heating and cooling.
>> The super heating and shock cooling I'm doing causes the items to shrink
>> at
>> different rates and hopefully allows some of the penetrating oil to
>> penetrate. On the three I have not been able to get loose yet, I plan to
>> try
>> super cooling them with dry ice and hopefully shrinking them.
>>
>> I have never tried this approach before. The dry ice place is only about
>> 12 miles away So I plan to drive over there, refill my borrowed acetylene
>> bottle and get some dry ice next week.
>>
>> --
>> Ken Burton - N9KB
>> 76 Palm Beach
>> Hebron, Indiana
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Since you have been soaking the fittings with kroil and/or an ATF/acetone mix, the only way I see water having any effect now would be after you have heated the fittings to burn off the oil. With the oil in the joint, water will obviously bog penetrate. Try applying water while the parts are still moderately hot. The cooling effect would wick the water into the joint. While quenching with water might provide the best loosening effect, I would wonder how it might affect the integrity of the tubing and its ability to hold high pressures.

The wax method Gary mentioned is also an old gunsmithing trick that helps lubricate the threaded joint.

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

>
> After applying heat to a fitting, try adding some candle wax. It will wick into the threads and they will loosen.
> I've had a lot of success with this method. Don't get caught snitching the candle from the house. LOL
>
> Gary Kosier
> 77PB w/500Cad
> Newark, Ohio
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Les Burt"
> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 12:14 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet
>
>> Although I haven’t tried this myself, I have been told by an old family friend that water works quite well at helping loosen rusted threads. He said water helped make the rust, and will also help loosen it. I’ve also read similar comments in some old gunsmithing books.
>>
>> Les Burt
>> Montreal
>> '75 Eleganza 26'
>>
>>

>>>

>>>>> Try this: boil a kettle of water. Use the freeze spray or dry ice on the line. Isolate the back of the nut with tape so when you pour the
>>>>> boiling water on it it hits the nut but not the line. Freeze the line, boil the nut, take a small dead blow hammer and whack the nut around (if
>>>>> you can reach it) and see if it win't come loose. The idea is to get the nut hot - boiling is usually plenty - while freezing and thereby
>>>>> shrinking the line. Couple of whacks to loosen it, or Whatsisname's trick of just a >bit< of tightening then loosen. The only line I've so far
>>>>> been unable to loosen was the upper trans cooler on my 23' when I recored the radiator. Go figure.
>>>>>
>>>>> --johnny
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Johnny
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> if remember correctly from a physics class when you heat a donut shaped object (the nut) the inside diameter actually gets smaller, it is a
>>>> classic demo of a non-intuitive situation. The donut shape expands in both directions inward and outward as it is heated. If there was a way to
>>>> chill just one of the pieces without chilling the other like putting the dry ice on the line a foot away from the nut. Just a thought.
>>>>
>>>> I got lucky, several applications of PB Blaster and jerking the wrench back and forth got the lines loose from the hoses. Amen to anti-seize.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, you are entirely correct on the effects of heating and cooling. The super heating and shock cooling I'm doing causes the items to shrink at
>>> different rates and hopefully allows some of the penetrating oil to penetrate. On the three I have not been able to get loose yet, I plan to try
>>> super cooling them with dry ice and hopefully shrinking them.
>>>
>>> I have never tried this approach before. The dry ice place is only about 12 miles away So I plan to drive over there, refill my borrowed acetylene
>>> bottle and get some dry ice next week.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ken Burton - N9KB
>>> 76 Palm Beach
>>> Hebron, Indiana
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Actually, I think the hole in the nut will enlarge along with the nut. Measue and report back.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
Les and Gary,

I did not make it out there today. Eye doctor appointment tomorrow is going to screw up my vision for most of tomorrow. So probably Tuesday I'll
try the suggested candle trick. I do not see how candle wax would be better than penetrating oil but I'm willing to try it and learn something new if
it works.

Thanks
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
> Actually, I think the hole in the nut will enlarge along with the nut. Measue and report back.
>
> --johnny

Well Johnny I guess I miss remembered that experiment. You are right. I confused two different experiments. Shows what happens to your memory 40 or 50
years down the road.

:blush:

--
Tom Lins
Elkton, FL
77 GM Rear Twin, Dry Bath, 455
Manuals on DVD
http://www.bdub.net/tomlins/
 
I don't even remember how many years, much less what happened when :) But I did remember heated nuts let go of their bolts somehow :)
In the flat motor shop we had a tool for removing valve seats from the aluminum heads. We heated the entire assembly and then put the tool, which was
an expanding circle of metal tubing with gripping fingers in the hot valve seat and took a squeeze bottle and ran water through the expanded tube.
The seat cooled rapidly and you could lift it our t without interference.

--johnny

--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
> Johnny
>
> if remember correctly from a physics class when you heat a donut shaped object (the nut) the inside diameter actually gets smaller, it is a
> classic demo of a non-intuitive situation. The donut shape expands in both directions inward and outward as it is heated. If there was a way to
> chill just one of the pieces without chilling the other like putting the dry ice on the line a foot away from the nut. Just a thought.
>

Tom,
(There is not simple abbreviation for the opposite of IIRC. (?iircbar?)
When you heat something that is all one material it all changes dimensions the same way.
So, if you heat a donut, the hole gets larger as proportionally as much as the outside.

I am personally wishing Ken luck here. Old brake lines and fittings have been the bane of my existence. Bleed screws were up there to until I
learned to pipe dope => then later and better teflon tape the threads. (And put the little rubber caps on.)

Now I anti-seize brake fitting during assembly.

All you really need is to keep maintaining the same vehicle for a decade or more and you start to pay attention to lots of things you didn't used to
care much about....

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Matt,

I hate working on brake lines too. These are the hardest ones I have ever had to get apart. Usually a lot of heat and shock cooling them with a good
lubricant does the job. Also soaking them daily for about 5 days with Kroil usually does the trick. Not this time.

> > Johnny
> >
> > if remember correctly from a physics class when you heat a donut shaped object (the nut) the inside diameter actually gets smaller, it is a
> > classic demo of a non-intuitive situation. The donut shape expands in both directions inward and outward as it is heated. If there was a way to
> > chill just one of the pieces without chilling the other like putting the dry ice on the line a foot away from the nut. Just a thought.
> >
>
> Tom,
> (There is not simple abbreviation for the opposite of IIRC. (?iircbar?)
> When you heat something that is all one material it all changes dimensions the same way.
> So, if you heat a donut, the hole gets larger as proportionally as much as the outside.
>
> I am personally wishing Ken luck here. Old brake lines and fittings have been the bane of my existence. Bleed screws were up there to until I
> learned to pipe dope => then later and better teflon tape the threads. (And put the little rubber caps on.)
>
> Now I anti-seize brake fitting during assembly.
>
> All you really need is to keep maintaining the same vehicle for a decade or more and you start to pay attention to lots of things you didn't used
> to care much about....
>
> Matt


--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Ken,

I just thought of something, IIRC you're having problems with the lines connected to the combination valve. With all the heating and
cooling your doing to that valve it will most likely be shot. You could take a Dremel with a thin cutoff blade and slice into the
valve to release the nut. Then all you'll have to deal with is the rust between the brake line and nut.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Ken Burton
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 10:45 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet

Matt,

I hate working on brake lines too. These are the hardest ones I have ever had to get apart. Usually a lot of heat and shock
cooling them with a good lubricant does the job. Also soaking them daily for about 5 days with Kroil usually does the trick. Not
this time.

Ken Burton -
 
ROB,

What a neat idea. That valve is definitely already shot. I might even cut 2 slots and beat on it with a chisel, or maybe a nut breaker If I can find
mine.

Thanks
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
'how do I pour...'

Carefully. :)

The idea is to warm the nut but not the line. Heavy rag to keep the line dry? If you get dry ice, wrap it to the line with the rag and then pour hot
water over the nut. Although now I'm gonna do the Rob Thang with my Dremel clone.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
Success!!

I tried the candle wax thing. I let is sit and cool for 24 hours after applying the wax. Tried to loosen again and Nothing. After 24 hours I still
could budge the nut.

BTW, I have only worked with one thing in the past that goes from a solid to gas without stopping off in a liquid state on the way. Well, you should
see what happens when you put a solid candle on a nut and tube that was just heated with acetylene. You have an instant cloud.

So I went back to Acetylene (without bottled oxygen.) I heated the nut and tube for about 4 minutes (I even melted a hole in the aluminum heat shield
I had put behind it.) I feel I got it as hot as possible without adding oxygen. So after heating it as hot as practical, I sprayed the nut and tube
with Freeze Off for about 20 seconds. I grabbed the nut with my special vice grips and it easily broke loose.

So I now have 7 of the 9 total lines loose and all 5 on the combination valve. I removed the combination valve today. Tomorrow I will clean all of
the nuts and the first inch or so of the steel line with brake cleaner and a Dremmel tool wire brush. . I have only 2 left. They are the brake
lines that end at the rubber hoses on both of the front wheels.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
If you are replacing the hoses, just cut them with a pair of bypass rose
pruners, remove the retaining clip, and hold the nut immobile, unscrew the
metal end of the hose from the nut without turning it on the steel line.
After you have the hose free, then you have access to both ends of the
line. It's what I do with the stubborn ones.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> Success!!
>
> I tried the candle wax thing. I let is sit and cool for 24 hours after
> applying the wax. Tried to loosen again and Nothing. After 24 hours I
> still
> could budge the nut.
>
> BTW, I have only worked with one thing in the past that goes from a solid
> to gas without stopping off in a liquid state on the way. Well, you should
> see what happens when you put a solid candle on a nut and tube that was
> just heated with acetylene. You have an instant cloud.
>
> So I went back to Acetylene (without bottled oxygen.) I heated the nut and
> tube for about 4 minutes (I even melted a hole in the aluminum heat shield
> I had put behind it.) I feel I got it as hot as possible without adding
> oxygen. So after heating it as hot as practical, I sprayed the nut and tube
> with Freeze Off for about 20 seconds. I grabbed the nut with my special
> vice grips and it easily broke loose.
>
> So I now have 7 of the 9 total lines loose and all 5 on the combination
> valve. I removed the combination valve today. Tomorrow I will clean all of
> the nuts and the first inch or so of the steel line with brake cleaner and
> a Dremmel tool wire brush. . I have only 2 left. They are the brake
> lines that end at the rubber hoses on both of the front wheels.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Yes Jim. That was my plan. I was thinking to just pull the retaining / mounting clips and push the hose assemblies out of their mounting holes.
Then I'll hold the tube nut firmly with vice grips up against the frame to keep them from rotating. Start turning the nut parts which are the
remaining parts of the cut hose assembly. I have heated a few of these in the past and always manage to get it hot enough to explode the hose. So it
is much easier, as you suggest, to just cut it first. Then I can use a deep well socket on a 3/8 drive impact to loosen it.

Thanks Jim.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
glad your not charging by the hour :) Glad u got it handled

Sully
77 eleganza 2
bellevue

> Yes Jim. That was my plan. I was thinking to just pull the retaining /
> mounting clips and push the hose assemblies out of their mounting holes.
> Then I'll hold the tube nut firmly with vice grips up against the frame to
> keep them from rotating. Start turning the nut parts which are the
> remaining parts of the cut hose assembly. I have heated a few of these in
> the past and always manage to get it hot enough to explode the hose. So it
> is much easier, as you suggest, to just cut it first. Then I can use a
> deep well socket on a 3/8 drive impact to loosen it.
>
> Thanks Jim.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
> glad your not charging by the hour :) Glad u got it handled
>
> Sully
> 77 eleganza 2
> bellevue

Yes, 90% of my life I worked for a salary or salary plus commission. In this case the salary was very low and the commission was based on a
percentage of that. So no matter how high the percentage was it still came out to nothing. Example 50% of 0 is Zero.

One good thing is the feds, (income, SSI, medicare tax), and state calculate all calculate the same way (a percentage). So their cut is nothing. I do
not even have to file the paperwork.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
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