GMC Motorhomes, and safety.

B

Bob Dunahugh

New member
Sep 17, 2012
2,784
4
3
I seem to be going to my friends salvage yard way to often in search for th=
ings, and ideas for the GMC, and other projects. I thought that as I got ol=
der that these trips would end. NOT. It seems that this form is contribut=
ing to driving me there. ( GRIN ) GMC owners seem to be very interested in =
updating their coaches to make them safer, more comfortable, and to meet th=
e owners needs so they can continue to be on the road in a 36 to 41 year o=
ld GMC that we all love. I even widened our side door by 7 inches for a whe=
elchair. And GM had no plans for this to be continuing on for so long. We =
make changes to the steering, front suspension, rear brakes, and rear suspe=
nsion. This is all done in an attempt to improve our chances of getting to =
where we want to go safely. Will these changes guarantee our arrival under =
all conditions. NO. But these changes will help. This also is the case of t=
he shoulder belt. That shoulder belt will do absolutely no good in a catast=
rophic crash. My point here is that how often does that catastrophic crash =
happen. How many of you that hit the salvage yards ever see a car, or truck=
that is rolled up into a ball. Or just shredded to pieces. I never have. B=
ut I do believe that a shoulder belt will HELP in most accidents. The photo=
of a GMC with the top ripped off. There is a point to that also. Is there=
a right, or wrong. It all comes down to your comfort zone. And improving y=
our ODDs of living threw an accident. My two cents. Bob Dunahugh GMCMI M=
ember78 Royale =09=09 =09 =09=09
 
> I seem to be going to my friends salvage yard way to often in search for things, and ideas for the GMC, and other projects. I thought that as I got older that these trips would end. NOT. It seems that this form is contributing to driving me there. ( GRIN ) GMC owners seem to be very interested in updating their coaches to make them safer, more comfortable, and to meet the owners needs so they can continue to be on the road in a 36 to 41 year old GMC that we all love. I even widened our side door by 7 inches for a wheelchair. And GM had no plans for this to be continuing on for so long. We make changes to the steering, front suspension, rear brakes, and rear suspension. This is all done in an attempt to improve our chances of getting to where we want to go safely. Will these changes guarantee our arrival under all conditions. NO. But these changes will help. This also is the case of the shoulder belt. That shoulder belt will do absolutely no good in a catastrophic crash. M
> y point here is that how often does that catastrophic crash happen. How many of you that hit the salvage yards ever see a car, or truck that is rolled up into a ball. Or just shredded to pieces. I never have. But I do believe that a shoulder belt will HELP in most accidents. The photo of a GMC with the top ripped off. There is a point to that also. Is there a right, or wrong. It all comes down to your comfort zone. And improving your ODDs of living threw an accident. My two cents.
> Bob Dunahugh GMCMI Member78 Royale
Bob,

I don't come away from the shoulder belt discussion discouraged, I see that there are enough ways to do it that I can find one that suits me.

The ONE way that I can see that has a good chance of keeping your face off the steering wheel in a "minor" front collision, and won't tear your head off in a rollover, is the one with the belt anchored to the floor and going over the shoulder of the seat. The floor where the seat bolts down would need to be reinforced to help keep the seat from tearing loose in a "real" head-on crash, and no one can tell us how much reinforcement or where. But that would be my approach.
--
'73 23' Sequoia For Sale
'73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
UA (Upper Alabama)
CanyonLands most likely for a parts coach. Sequoia being restored to service.
 
Well, there are 14 jillion different scenarios when it comes to crashes. We
all agree that the GMC, above the belt line is Not Substantial enough to
attach shoulder harness to. So, do we do something like the Land speed GMC
has done and make a full cage with inertia reels and Hahn's device, or look
at percentages of the most probable types of accident we are MOST LIKELY to
be involved in. I kind of lean towards accident prevention rather than the
doomsday preparedness situation. We are driving a 12000 pound vehicle in
much heavier traffic patterns than the era in which it was designed. Seems
like more effective brakes ought to be very high on the list. Fewer
distractions inside the cockpit ought to be a high priority as well. Just
my way of looking at it. All that instrumentation that some GMC 's have
will certainly take your eyes off the road for too long in my opinion.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

>
>

> > I seem to be going to my friends salvage yard way to often in search for
> things, and ideas for the GMC, and other projects. I thought that as I got
> older that these trips would end. NOT. It seems that this form is
> contributing to driving me there. ( GRIN ) GMC owners seem to be very
> interested in updating their coaches to make them safer, more comfortable,
> and to meet the owners needs so they can continue to be on the road in a
> 36 to 41 year old GMC that we all love. I even widened our side door by 7
> inches for a wheelchair. And GM had no plans for this to be continuing on
> for so long. We make changes to the steering, front suspension, rear
> brakes, and rear suspension. This is all done in an attempt to improve our
> chances of getting to where we want to go safely. Will these changes
> guarantee our arrival under all conditions. NO. But these changes will
> help. This also is the case of the shoulder belt. That shoulder belt will
> do absolutely no good in a catastrophic crash.
> M
> > y point here is that how often does that catastrophic crash happen. How
> many of you that hit the salvage yards ever see a car, or truck that is
> rolled up into a ball. Or just shredded to pieces. I never have. But I do
> believe that a shoulder belt will HELP in most accidents. The photo of a
> GMC with the top ripped off. There is a point to that also. Is there a
> right, or wrong. It all comes down to your comfort zone. And improving your
> ODDs of living threw an accident. My two cents.
> > Bob Dunahugh GMCMI Member78 Royale
> Bob,
>
> I don't come away from the shoulder belt discussion discouraged, I see
> that there are enough ways to do it that I can find one that suits me.
>
> The ONE way that I can see that has a good chance of keeping your face off
> the steering wheel in a "minor" front collision, and won't tear your head
> off in a rollover, is the one with the belt anchored to the floor and going
> over the shoulder of the seat. The floor where the seat bolts down would
> need to be reinforced to help keep the seat from tearing loose in a "real"
> head-on crash, and no one can tell us how much reinforcement or where. But
> that would be my approach.
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia For Sale
> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
> UA (Upper Alabama)
> CanyonLands most likely for a parts coach. Sequoia being restored to
> service.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
 
> Well, there are 14 jillion different scenarios when it comes to crashes. We
> all agree that the GMC, above the belt line is Not Substantial enough to
> attach shoulder harness to. So, do we do something like the Land speed GMC
> has done and make a full cage with inertia reels and Hahn's device, or look
> at percentages of the most probable types of accident we are MOST LIKELY to
> be involved in. I kind of lean towards accident prevention rather than the
> doomsday preparedness situation.

Hear, hear...

> We are driving a 12000 pound vehicle in much heavier traffic patterns than the era in which it was designed. Seems like more effective brakes ought to be very high on the list.

80mm front calipers and well adjusted drums worked as well as they could
on my coach but when I saw the first available Reaction Arm brakes I was
almost willing to mortgage the farm to buy them. Bringing the price down
to manageable levels make Manny (disc) and Tom (drums) my heroes. I'm
finally very comfortable with the braking on my coach.

> Fewer distractions inside the cockpit ought to be a high priority as well.

Pretty sure all of us realize we're not driving minivans. Considering my
love of "enthusiastic' driving, my friends can't figure out why I like
driving the GMC. It doesn't involve you the same was as a fast, good
handling car does, but it certainly involves you. The fact that we hear
of so few accidents with a group this big tends to support the idea that
we ARE paying attention when we're driving our rigs.

Very little chance that we'll even need our seatbelts at all. A smaller
chance that someone will pull out in front of us and we can't slow quick
enough - reaction arm brakes or not. And even smaller chance that we're
going to roll our coaches into the ditch and tear the top off.

> Just my way of looking at it. All that instrumentation that some GMC 's have
> will certainly take your eyes off the road for too long in my opinion.

Agreed. I have oil pressure and water temp right on top and clocked so
the needles point up when all is well. A quick glance says the
important things are fine. There is time to read oil temp, tranny temp,
voltmeter and such when I have nothing else to do. The Chuck Garton
School of Instrumentation isn't for me. :^)

Kelvin
 
New here but wanted to chime in if I could. As I was reading James's statement yes maybe putting in a roll bar of some type was just my thought. Could this be done? Has it been done other than in a made for speed GMC? Can it be done without major surgery? Updating saftey is on my list of things to see done to mine. Heck I would put in air bags if I new that much about them. I would like my pasengers and I to know that if an accident were to occur we could all walk away.
--
John T.
Humble Texas just north of Houston
'67 Firebird convetable
'71 Buick GS
'77 Trans AM
'73 Porsche 914
'74 Sequioa
 
I disagree that the structure above the belt line is inadequate for mounting shoulder harnesses. The motor home structure is very substantial compared to light aircraft attach structure, which have been required to have shoulder harnesses for many years. The top failure in a rollover is the one time that shoulder harness attached to that structure is bad. In the much more common front end collision shoulder harness attached in the ways shown on the photo site are more than adequate.

Hal Kading (who spent 24 days hospitalized because he didn't have a shoulder harness in a car crash)
 
Hal does make a good point on aircraft and shoulder belts. A flying soup can [otherwise known as a Cessna] has shoulder belts.

That being said, it seems clear to this redneck that the most practical solution would be to install one of the modern seats that have the shoulder harness integral to the seat back. The floor is already supposed to be strong enough to manage the forces of a belted in driver/passenger. If you wanted to reinforce further, it strikes me as a lot easier to gusset the floor than the wall.

Just my two cents, having lurked on this subject the past few days....

Scott
'74 x-Glacier
Newmarket ON

> To: gmclist
> From: halkading
> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 13:09:43 -0600
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] GMC Motorhomes, and safety.
>
>
>
> I disagree that the structure above the belt line is inadequate for mounting shoulder harnesses. The motor home structure is very substantial compared to light aircraft attach structure, which have been required to have shoulder harnesses for many years. The top failure in a rollover is the one time that shoulder harness attached to that structure is bad. In the much more common front end collision shoulder harness attached in the ways shown on the photo site are more than adequate.
>
> Hal Kading (who spent 24 days hospitalized because he didn't have a shoulder harness in a car crash)
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
Yes mounting a sholder harness is a good thing but the way of mounting it could posibly be improved upon. The GMC was not made for the seatbelt improvement only the justification of needing to do so. With a "rollbar" you could have the best of both worlds it seems. Yes the looks and space it needs may not be to desired but a strong anchor point with top seperation protection would be a plus.
--
John T.
Humble Texas just north of Houston
'67 Firebird convetable
'71 Buick GS
'77 Trans AM
'73 Porsche 914
'74 Sequioa
 
The Chuck Garton School of Instrumentation isn't for me. :^)
Kelvin

Chuck has plenty of time to read all those gauges when he's lost in the woods in Oregon.

Sorry, Chuck. Couldn't resist.

--
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
 
> Hal does make a good point on aircraft and shoulder belts. A flying soup can [otherwise known as a Cessna] has shoulder belts.

He kinda does, but I would expect those belts are mostly about holding
you in place in a vehicle that has X, Y AND Z movement. Certainly going
to help during a rough landing or light crash.

> That being said, it seems clear to this redneck that the most practical solution would be to install one of the modern seats that have the shoulder harness integral to the seat back. The floor is already supposed to be strong enough to manage the forces of a belted in driver/passenger.

I haven't looked at it for years, but I'm not sure I'd worry about how
the box is bolted to the floor. There is a lot of structure there. The
swivel, on the other hand, was never made to handle the forces
involved. At least to my recollection. I might be convinced otherwise
if I had a good look at one but... it just seems like that assembly
would be the weak point.

Kelvin
 
Jim, I don't agree on your comment regarding shoulder harnesses. On our 23
the forward door frame on the pass side is plenty strong to accept 3/8"
grade 8 bolts drilled through the two aluminum sections parallel with the
centerline of the coach. As well the opposite side right behind the drivers
seat also has a pretty heavy aluminum extrusion. I think I have some
pictures I can post when we did ours.

Thanks,

Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 GMC Glacier
Anza, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces
[mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 10:10 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] GMC Motorhomes, and safety.

Well, there are 14 jillion different scenarios when it comes to crashes. We
all agree that the GMC, above the belt line is Not Substantial enough to
attach shoulder harness to. So, do we do something like the Land speed GMC
has done and make a full cage with inertia reels and Hahn's device, or look
at percentages of the most probable types of accident we are MOST LIKELY to
be involved in. I kind of lean towards accident prevention rather than the
doomsday preparedness situation. We are driving a 12000 pound vehicle in
much heavier traffic patterns than the era in which it was designed. Seems
like more effective brakes ought to be very high on the list. Fewer
distractions inside the cockpit ought to be a high priority as well. Just my
way of looking at it. All that instrumentation that some GMC 's have will
certainly take your eyes off the road for too long in my opinion.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

>
>

> > I seem to be going to my friends salvage yard way to often in search
> > for
> things, and ideas for the GMC, and other projects. I thought that as I
> got older that these trips would end. NOT. It seems that this form
> is contributing to driving me there. ( GRIN ) GMC owners seem to be
> very interested in updating their coaches to make them safer, more
> comfortable, and to meet the owners needs so they can continue to be
> on the road in a
> 36 to 41 year old GMC that we all love. I even widened our side door
> by 7 inches for a wheelchair. And GM had no plans for this to be
> continuing on for so long. We make changes to the steering, front
> suspension, rear brakes, and rear suspension. This is all done in an
> attempt to improve our chances of getting to where we want to go
> safely. Will these changes guarantee our arrival under all conditions.
> NO. But these changes will help. This also is the case of the shoulder
> belt. That shoulder belt will do absolutely no good in a catastrophic
crash.
> M
> > y point here is that how often does that catastrophic crash happen.
> > How
> many of you that hit the salvage yards ever see a car, or truck that
> is rolled up into a ball. Or just shredded to pieces. I never have.
> But I do believe that a shoulder belt will HELP in most accidents. The
> photo of a GMC with the top ripped off. There is a point to that
> also. Is there a right, or wrong. It all comes down to your comfort
> zone. And improving your ODDs of living threw an accident. My two cents.
> > Bob Dunahugh GMCMI Member78 Royale
> Bob,
>
> I don't come away from the shoulder belt discussion discouraged, I see
> that there are enough ways to do it that I can find one that suits me.
>
> The ONE way that I can see that has a good chance of keeping your face
> off the steering wheel in a "minor" front collision, and won't tear
> your head off in a rollover, is the one with the belt anchored to the
> floor and going over the shoulder of the seat. The floor where the
> seat bolts down would need to be reinforced to help keep the seat from
tearing loose in a "real"
> head-on crash, and no one can tell us how much reinforcement or where.
> But that would be my approach.
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia For Sale
> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
> UA (Upper Alabama)
> CanyonLands most likely for a parts coach. Sequoia being restored to
> service.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
 
I'm guessing it would get complex, after all, this is a chassis on frame
vehicle.

I do wonder if a cage that included the passenger portion (front seats and
the couch area) would be of use?

Should it be to some racing spec, or? Here is where you might run into some
liability if you sold it, while it would mostly be an improvement, it
wouldn't always be, and someone might sue you. Also, you might need to
upgrade the seating, otherwise you have added more things to hit your head
on.

>
>
> New here but wanted to chime in if I could. As I was reading James's
> statement yes maybe putting in a roll bar of some type was just my thought.
> Could this be done? Has it been done other than in a made for speed GMC?
> Can it be done without major surgery? Updating saftey is on my list of
> things to see done to mine. Heck I would put in air bags if I new that much
> about them. I would like my pasengers and I to know that if an accident
> were to occur we could all walk away.
> --
> John T.
> Humble Texas just north of Houston
> '67 Firebird convetable
> '71 Buick GS
> '77 Trans AM
> '73 Porsche 914
> '74 Sequioa
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
Plato seems wrong to me today.
 
Too much weight for a simple hoop to be of any use. The structure
you're building it into isn't really conductive to a strong, simple
hoop, either. If you look at the cage in the LSR coach it's massive and
I'm guessing all of the main points go directly to the frame... a frame
that you really want isolated from the body in any coach you're going to
use.

I don't think there's any way to build anything other that would do the
job well. And those who have cages in there cars without wearing a
helmet are also fooling themselves. If you actually get into something
where you end up using the cage you'd be surprised just how far your
body and move and stretch in an accident. You head coming in contact
with a steel tube is pretty much all bad.

Kelvin

> I'm guessing it would get complex, after all, this is a chassis on frame
> vehicle.
>
> I do wonder if a cage that included the passenger portion (front seats and
> the couch area) would be of use?
>
> Should it be to some racing spec, or? Here is where you might run into some
> liability if you sold it, while it would mostly be an improvement, it
> wouldn't always be, and someone might sue you. Also, you might need to
> upgrade the seating, otherwise you have added more things to hit your head
> on.
>
>

>
>>
>> New here but wanted to chime in if I could. As I was reading James's
>> statement yes maybe putting in a roll bar of some type was just my thought.
>> Could this be done? Has it been done other than in a made for speed GMC?
>> Can it be done without major surgery? Updating saftey is on my list of
>> things to see done to mine. Heck I would put in air bags if I new that much
>> about them. I would like my pasengers and I to know that if an accident
>> were to occur we could all walk away.
>> --
>> John T.
>> Humble Texas just north of Houston
>> '67 Firebird convetable
>> '71 Buick GS
>> '77 Trans AM
>> '73 Porsche 914
>> '74 Sequioa
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
 
> Jim, I don't agree on your comment regarding shoulder harnesses. On our 23
> the forward door frame on the pass side is plenty strong to accept 3/8"
> grade 8 bolts drilled through the two aluminum sections parallel with the
> centerline of the coach. As well the opposite side right behind the drivers
> seat also has a pretty heavy aluminum extrusion. I think I have some
> pictures I can post when we did ours.

Just putting bolts thru any of the relatively thin framework might not
be the best idea.

I thought thru the mounting scheme before showing it to a couple of my
coworkers (also Mech Engineers) and we all agreed that there was no way
these mounting points would be the failure point in the three point belt
system.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g3599-seatbelts-3-point.html

That said... if you're truly worried about ripping your head off in a
rollover don't even consider this. In fact, even me recommending you do
it this way is foolish. I'm willing to put our bodies behind these seat
belts is 99.99% of the accidents we're likely to encounter. You may
attempt to do something similar and cut a corner of two and end up with
something that won't hold.

Kelvin
 
Back in my dragster pilot days, if there was any room at all between my
helmet and the cage, just the forces in a uneventful run would blur my
vision if any contact was made between helmet and an unpadded portion of
the cage. And the dragster was all cage. I never got one upside down, but
I did prang the jersey barriers a time or two. If you had an adequate cage
in a GMC, it wouldn't have all the comforts of home to be sure. Perhaps a
23' has more bracing near the door than a 26' does, and the door is up
front, unlike the 26. The coaches I have seen with the interior stripped
were all 26'. I have seen wrecked GMC's both in pictures and after the
wrecks, and everything above the beltline was gone. Perhaps a person, well
versed in roll cage and safety restraint installation, could come up with
internal structure that would withstand human body inertial forces in the
event of a front end crash. I wouldn't attempt it myself, but that does not
rule out someone else doing so. The unease one feels with only a lap belt
makes me back off the following distance in my experience. Jwid.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

> Too much weight for a simple hoop to be of any use. The structure
> you're building it into isn't really conductive to a strong, simple
> hoop, either. If you look at the cage in the LSR coach it's massive and
> I'm guessing all of the main points go directly to the frame... a frame
> that you really want isolated from the body in any coach you're going to
> use.
>
> I don't think there's any way to build anything other that would do the
> job well. And those who have cages in there cars without wearing a
> helmet are also fooling themselves. If you actually get into something
> where you end up using the cage you'd be surprised just how far your
> body and move and stretch in an accident. You head coming in contact
> with a steel tube is pretty much all bad.
>
> Kelvin
>

> > I'm guessing it would get complex, after all, this is a chassis on frame
> > vehicle.
> >
> > I do wonder if a cage that included the passenger portion (front seats
> and
> > the couch area) would be of use?
> >
> > Should it be to some racing spec, or? Here is where you might run into
> some
> > liability if you sold it, while it would mostly be an improvement, it
> > wouldn't always be, and someone might sue you. Also, you might need to
> > upgrade the seating, otherwise you have added more things to hit your
> head
> > on.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 10:58 AM, John Trellue

> >
> >>
> >> New here but wanted to chime in if I could. As I was reading James's
> >> statement yes maybe putting in a roll bar of some type was just my
> thought.
> >> Could this be done? Has it been done other than in a made for speed GMC?
> >> Can it be done without major surgery? Updating saftey is on my list of
> >> things to see done to mine. Heck I would put in air bags if I new that
> much
> >> about them. I would like my pasengers and I to know that if an accident
> >> were to occur we could all walk away.
> >> --
> >> John T.
> >> Humble Texas just north of Houston
> >> '67 Firebird convetable
> >> '71 Buick GS
> >> '77 Trans AM
> >> '73 Porsche 914
> >> '74 Sequioa
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >>
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
 
>
> What is the problem ? 2001 and some years up GM truck, tahoe and suburban.
>
> http://s1126.photobucket.com/user/Espen_Heitmann/media/1973%20Sequoia/_57_zpsb7cc3844.jpg.html

Look at how that is bolted to the floor. That isn't how you bolt a GMC
seat to the floor. Usually bolted to the OEM swivel which was never
designed to hold a 100# seat and a 200# man in the event of a big
frontal impact.

How much did a '75 seat weight? ±40 pounds? And all it had to do was
hold itself in place in an accident.
In this case I think you'd be better off using the stock lap belt and
hoping the giant seat holds itself in place.

But again, we don't get in that many accidents with our motorhomes.
Probably a moot point. Probably...
 
> >
> > What is the problem ? 2001 and some years up GM truck, tahoe and suburban.
> >
> > http://s1126.photobucket.com/user/Espen_Heitmann/media/1973%20Sequoia/_57_zpsb7cc3844.jpg.html
>
> Look at how that is bolted to the floor. That isn't how you bolt a GMC
> seat to the floor. Usually bolted to the OEM swivel which was never
> designed to hold a 100# seat and a 200# man in the event of a big
> frontal impact.


It has 8 bolts if I remember right 2 in front and 2 in the rear of each side rail, but it shoud not matter much and if you think it will need a stronger bolt to the swivel that is an easy task, the base in the GMC should be more than strong enough.
--
1973 26' Parrot green Seqouia in Norway
"Loffen" translates to white bread, it is also a nick name for your.. well you know..down there.. and it was my dog's name, but hey you can also call me Espen ;)
 
Appie, the picture was just from the first one I did find, I have seen a pair from $ 300 and up on Ebay.

Just do not buy the ones with side air bags, they are easily spotted by the air bag cover on the outer side of the seat back.


--
1973 26' Parrot green Seqouia in Norway
"Loffen" translates to white bread, it is also a nick name for your.. well you know..down there.. and it was my dog's name, but hey you can also call me Espen ;)
 
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