General wiring question

Ken B

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2002
16,834
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The gauges vary for 10 to 18 depending on the circuit. The wiring diagram show the gauges for each circuit. I do not like copper clad aluminum. I
am talking about the 12VDC stuff. The 120 volt stuff I believe is all 14 gauge. except the main feeds from the generator and shore power.

Everything should be stranded copper. No Aluminum.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Stranded copper rather then solid the more strands the better. Tachometer , voltmeter, temperature gages oil and water , vacuum is where I would start
any others if you feel a need. If you are a flat lande maybe less.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
 
For most applications GPT is probably fine. That being said, TXL,GXL,and SXL are better wire choices for under hood areas where you have more heat and
contaminates like gas and oil. I use the better/more expensive stuff in applications such as wiring harnesses. Gauges 10 through 18 are typical
although I seldom use 18.
Be careful buying from EB or the like stores. Del City or Waytek do carry the good stuff (as well as others).
Have fun, Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1975 Eleganza II, 101230,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,

Rio Rancho, NM
 
Corey,

Where the harness usually is, on top of and in front of the engine, the only place that is too hot for normal wire grades is the exhaust cross over in
the intake manifold. So, if you go over or around that, no problems. You can copy the wire gauges from the diagrams and not go wrong. This is
particularly true because the wire sizes call out are SAE and not AWG. SAE is 85~90% of AWG. If you buy marine grade wire, that is find stranded for
vibration and tinned for corrosion protection.

One last thing that I have learned. There are crimping tools that save the insulation, avoid them. There are some that mostly work, but those are
expensive and have to be used with specific lugs and wire sizes. Get a tool that has a distinct tooth. Put that tooth away from where the ferrule is
joined. That join can split open and release the conductors. Insulated terminals are OK, but if it is something that really matters, slide a piece
of heat shrink on before the lug gets staked then slide it up and shrink it.

Best of luck guy

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Actually, and I'm sure this will start quite a 'conversation' but solder is not always the best approach. Metal to metal in a good crimp will have
lower resistance than a soldered connection. The solder will tend to crack in vibration prone areas especially when not properly supported. This
condition is only exasperated when the solder wicks up under the insulation. Of course you need to use quality seamless connectors and the right
crimping tool and use the correct methods when crimping. I'm not saying there are't lots of soldered connections out there that have worked but...
Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1975 Eleganza II, 101230,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,

Rio Rancho, NM
 
Like Hal said. I cannot remember the last soldered OE wire end I saw was.
It’s all crimped.

Sully
Bellevue wa.

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 6:03 PM Hal StClair via Gmclist <

> Actually, and I'm sure this will start quite a 'conversation' but solder
> is not always the best approach. Metal to metal in a good crimp will have
> lower resistance than a soldered connection. The solder will tend to crack
> in vibration prone areas especially when not properly supported. This
> condition is only exasperated when the solder wicks up under the
> insulation. Of course you need to use quality seamless connectors and the
> right
> crimping tool and use the correct methods when crimping. I'm not saying
> there are't lots of soldered connections out there that have worked but...
> Hal
> --
> 1977 Royale 101348,
>
> 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
>
> 1975 Eleganza II, 101230,
>
> 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
>
> Rio Rancho, NM
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
I think it comes back to time spent per connection. Crimping is fast, less
expensive and most of the time effective enough to outlive the warranty. Is
it electrically superior to a properly soldered, heat shrunk connector? In
all my years of experience, I have had many, many crimped connections get
full of corrosion and develop high resistance in automotive service. Worse
in marine service, particularly salt water.
Soldered connections? Can't remember very many that were well soldered.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:00 PM Todd Sullivan via Gmclist <

> Like Hal said. I cannot remember the last soldered OE wire end I saw was.
> It’s all crimped.
>
> Sully
> Bellevue wa.
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 6:03 PM Hal StClair via Gmclist <

>
> > Actually, and I'm sure this will start quite a 'conversation' but solder
> > is not always the best approach. Metal to metal in a good crimp will have
> > lower resistance than a soldered connection. The solder will tend to
> crack
> > in vibration prone areas especially when not properly supported. This
> > condition is only exasperated when the solder wicks up under the
> > insulation. Of course you need to use quality seamless connectors and the
> > right
> > crimping tool and use the correct methods when crimping. I'm not saying
> > there are't lots of soldered connections out there that have worked
> but...
> > Hal
> > --
> > 1977 Royale 101348,
> >
> > 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
> >
> > 1975 Eleganza II, 101230,
> >
> > 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
> >
> > Rio Rancho, NM
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
In my experience, slight though it may be, the problem with solder occurs when the wire is simply floated in the conncector and thenthe void filled
with solder. As Hal says, this will crystallize and give problems under vibration. Use the new solder which is about half crystallized anyway, and
it gets worse. A proper crimp with the correct tool and wire size and connector then soldered will last and the solder will forestall corrosion. On
big connections I use split bolts, and neither twist nor solder the conductors, just place them through the bolt and then tighten it down with two
long wrenches, cover in rubber and tape. This for battery cables and the like.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
 
I agree with Ken. Having restored a few boats, I always use tinned copper wire suitable for marine use even on vehicles.

I have a good Ancor crimping tool, and I crimp, then solder, then apply adhesive filled shrink tubing. This makes a very sturdy, waterproof
connection.

This connection will outlast the wire. You will pay a little more up front, but you will never have a problem with those connections and wire if it is
properly sized for the amp load.

Don't buy the wire at West Marine, it will cost you double. There are several vendors on ebay that provide good wire for a good price.

I used tinned marine wire on the battery cables as well. If you peel back the insulation on an old battery cable, you will see black corrosion for
several inches beyond where the insulation was. This corrosion

wicks in under the jacket. Since electricity travels on the outside of the strands of wire, this really increases the resistance of the wire, causing
voltage drop and heat. An adhesive filled heat shrink over a

crimped and soldered connection will prevent this.
--
Greg Crawford
Knoxville, TN
 
Don't get me wrong. Crimped connections are universally accepted across
many industries as the cat's meow. But companies like Tektronics still
absolutely use soldered connections.
My first wife Mary had a friend who managed a company who hired
mentally challenged people, and trained them for self supporting jobs
within their capabilities. Some of the tasks involved simple sorting and
packaging hardware and printed instruction manuals to include in packaging
of products for sale.
One of their products involved some precision soldering of wire harnesses,
which proved too difficult for the skill sets of his employees. So, her
friend sub contracted the harness soldering to folks like Mary and I who
did have the skills to perform those tasks. I had a heated shop in the back
yard with great lighting and work stations that we worked in. We soldered
components to circuit boards under 10 power magnification lenses. Touchy
stuff that had to pass vigorous inspection and testing. Tek was a stickler
for quality control. That is where I refined my soldering skills.
So, yes, I have some experience with soldering. Cleanliness is next to
Godliness in this. Any corrosion or dirt will lead to a cold soldered
joint. Also, proper cleanup and insulating is a must. And it takes time
from skilled workers. That equals $$$$ every time.
So, crimping has it's place, as does soldering. Which method is
better? Heck, I don't know with certainly.
I guess it is a quest for another day.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 8:30 AM Greg Crawford via Gmclist <

> I agree with Ken. Having restored a few boats, I always use tinned copper
> wire suitable for marine use even on vehicles.
>
> I have a good Ancor crimping tool, and I crimp, then solder, then apply
> adhesive filled shrink tubing. This makes a very sturdy, waterproof
> connection.
>
> This connection will outlast the wire. You will pay a little more up
> front, but you will never have a problem with those connections and wire if
> it is
> properly sized for the amp load.
>
> Don't buy the wire at West Marine, it will cost you double. There are
> several vendors on ebay that provide good wire for a good price.
>
> I used tinned marine wire on the battery cables as well. If you peel back
> the insulation on an old battery cable, you will see black corrosion for
> several inches beyond where the insulation was. This corrosion
>
> wicks in under the jacket. Since electricity travels on the outside of the
> strands of wire, this really increases the resistance of the wire, causing
> voltage drop and heat. An adhesive filled heat shrink over a
>
> crimped and soldered connection will prevent this.
> --
> Greg Crawford
> Knoxville, TN
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
As a graduate (!) of the NASA Standards High Reliability Soldering and Connection classes, I shall speak. Either methodology works correctly when
properly applied. Either can be screwed up by poor understanding and workmanship. Both methods were tested in the same manner in the class - the
wire was pulled off the connection or connector. The wire must break rather than leave the connector. Properly done either way, it will. Vibration
resistance was proofed on a shake table. Flexion will cause the wire to break eventually, stranded stuff takes much much longer to succumb to
vibration. It will pretty much always break at the connector, unless it was stripped using an illegal stripper in which case it will break where the
stripper nicked the conductor EVERY time.

One of several classes God's Great Air Farce fronted me to, and probably the most useful one in civilian life.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
 
Wiring has to be understood as a system. It was designed as a system. Wiring in my coach is 45 years old with the crimps still intact.
Quality parts, that are from Molex or AMP are what is in the coach now. Crimped with tooling that also says Molex or AMP. Are there cheaper tools/supplies? yes, but will they provide you with 45 years of service?
As to the suggestion to use heat shrink over uninsulated terminals. Make SURE to use the adhesive lined type shrink, as it is the ONLY shrink tube that is waterproof. Get clear so that you can inspect the crimp connection.
Solder? not a good choice in the auto world, never has been.

> On March 26, 2020 at 2:52 PM Matt Colie via Gmclist wrote>
>
> Corey,
>
> Where the harness usually is, on top of and in front of the engine, the only place that is too hot for normal wire grades is the exhaust cross over in
> the intake manifold. So, if you go over or around that, no problems. You can copy the wire gauges from the diagrams and not go wrong. This is
> particularly true because the wire sizes call out are SAE and not AWG. SAE is 85~90% of AWG. If you buy marine grade wire, that is find stranded for
> vibration and tinned for corrosion protection.
>
> One last thing that I have learned. There are crimping tools that save the insulation, avoid them. There are some that mostly work, but those are
> expensive and have to be used with specific lugs and wire sizes. Get a tool that has a distinct tooth. Put that tooth away from where the ferrule is
> joined. That join can split open and release the conductors. Insulated terminals are OK, but if it is something that really matters, slide a piece
> of heat shrink on before the lug gets staked then slide it up and shrink it.
>
> Best of luck guy
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Since lead free ROHS solder is now the norm, I am more likely to just crimp and shrink. But I use a Kline crimper with the pointed tang designed for
non insulated terminals. Much more aggressive than the flat squeeze type. They won't pull off.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
> A lot of great info here. So no solder! As I dig in, the first egregious thing I see is that the black "RESISTANCE DO NOT CUT" wire that runs from
> the engine front wire harness to the ignition coil has clearly been cut in the past and spliced back together using larger gauge wire. Also there is
> a melted spot where it appear some one has tried to make another splice repair and it has gotten hot. What's the most logical way to replace this
> wire?

The resistance wire was used with points ignition only. Do you have HEI or points distributor? If someone changed from points to HEI in the past they
would have eliminated that resistance wire.

If you still need the resistance wire because you have points ignition, I would clean up those connections by installing butt style crimp connectors
and covering them with shrink tubing. Nichrome resistance wire does no like solder very well.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
"I used tinned marine wire on the battery cables as well. If you peel back the insulation on an old battery cable, you will see black corrosion for
several inches beyond where the insulation was. This corrosion wicks in under the jacket. Since electricity travels on the outside of the strands of
wire, this really increases the resistance of the wire, causing voltage drop and heat. An adhesive filled heat shrink over a crimped and soldered
connection will prevent this."

To clarify, "skin effect" occurs with AC Currents... higher the frequency the more pronounced the skin effect (RF). However at DC, there is no skin
effect and electron flow is uniform within the conductor. So I can't see the corrosion on the outside of the conductors affecting the wire resistance
to a great degree.

However I'm not an Engineer so I could be completely wrong.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
 
So for my morning reading with my coffee I googled "crimping vs soldering wire terminals" to see if I could find some hard info on this.

The top search result was from Monroe Engineering LLC Inc.
https://monroeengineering.com/blog/crimping-vs-soldering-cable-connectors-which-is-best/

Third paragraph reads (after describing crimping):
"What Is Soldering?

Soldering, on the other hand, is a process that involves joining two or more objects using heated metal known as solder. Unlike with welding, the
objects -- which in this case is a cable and a connector -- is not heated. Rather, soldering only heats up the filler metal. As the filler metal, the
solder, heats up, it's applied between the wire and the connector. Once it cools, the solder hardens, thus joining the cable to the connector."

For the last 50 some years I've been heating the parts to be soldered and thought I was pretty good at soldering... now I find out I've been doing it
wrong! (sarcasm alert)

This company makes wiring harnesses and cable assemblies so I hope they only crimp.

But again, I'm not an Engineer so I could be all wrong.

BTW, When I was doing a higher current connection, I would crimp the connection as normal, but also solder were the end of the wire came through the
terminal. I figured this gave me a seal to the exposed strands but also did not have the solder wicking up the wire strands causing the strain relief
issues. JWID.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
 
Crimp a connector (for insulation and later possible use)on the resistance wire and strap it back into the harness. Run a new 12 volt supply from a
source that is powered only in run and start positions of the ignition switch. Fuse it at the source to protect your new wire.
--
Terry Kelpien

ASE Master Technician

73 Glacier 260

Smithfield, Va.
 
Terry,

Thanks for the reply. I was content with your recommendation until I got the new coil today and found printed on the side "USE WITH EXTERNAL
RESISTOR". Is this recommendation to protect the coil itself or is it to protect the points (that the manufacturer is assuming you have).
--
Corey P /

Hilliard, OH /

1974 Glacier 26'

ION Wheels
 
The main purpose of an ignition resistor on 12 volts systems is to reduce the voltage to the coil and current across the points to slow down the
burning of the point surfaces.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana