Furnace

S

steven d. ferguson

New member
Aug 1, 1999
874
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Thanks Andy. That was the one I bought. I'm going to modify one of the exterior
holes in the GMC to avoid having to cut a hole for an access door and mount the
Suburban exhaust vent cover, I'll cover the original intake hole with an
identical Surburban vent cover, blocked off from the inside. One will be a dummy
but I hear dual exhaust is in this year
Steve F.

> Steve,
> I installed a Suburban model NT-30SP which measures 12 1/2"H x 12"W x
> 23"L and rated at 30,000 BTUs which is adequate. It cost $450 on sale at
> Camping World. I did some work myself but had their man do the actual
> installing and connecting of gas and electrical at hourly rates. As usual
> with GMC's, everything requires custom fitting and if I do another, I will do
> some things differently. It's a tight fit but will fit. Removal of the
> SolAire is difficult and requires removal of the couch for access. After
> that, I made a plywood platform 4 1/2"H x 12"W x 20"L for the furnace to sit
> on. This overcomes the problem of the curved outer wall and provides the 23"
> depth needed.
> The intake and exhaust require two 2 1/4" holes through the exterior which
> are covered with grills provided. No paint nor patch required. Ducting is a
> problem and I am modifying that with sheet metal plenums.
> I chose this model over the flat Suburban to avoid cutting a 6" x 16"
> opening in the outside and getting a curved panel made to fit over it. The
> flat model is connected and serviced from the outside. Next time, I'll
> rethink that option.
>
> Andy Miller 75PB, PA
 
Call me crazy, but I used an oil-filled 1500 watt electric home space
heater (looks like an old steam radiator) to keep the inside toasty
while I puttered in it this winter. Worked fine, if a little bulky.
For as little as I need heat (went to survival school in the Cascades
in October '84, after all), I was wondering if I could get by without
propane at all by using either it or one of those compact ceramic
electric heaters while hooked up to shore power or running generator.
I don't cook much more than whatever comes out of the microwave,
either, so I don't need a gas oven. I 'spose I could just rip out the
propane tank & lines altogether! Or am I crazy?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
 
If your crazy, then so am I, just an advanced state of lunacy, as I already
scrapped all my propane. I went electric with the cooking, and installed a
diesel fired hot water heater (no survival school here, I like HEAT!). I
works great, far better than the ho air set up, and much quieter to boot.

Bottom line...Can be done... has been done.

Tony B.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Hilsdorf
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: Furnace

> Call me crazy, but I used an oil-filled 1500 watt electric home space
> heater (looks like an old steam radiator) to keep the inside toasty
> while I puttered in it this winter. Worked fine, if a little bulky.
> For as little as I need heat (went to survival school in the Cascades
> in October '84, after all), I was wondering if I could get by without
> propane at all by using either it or one of those compact ceramic
> electric heaters while hooked up to shore power or running generator.
> I don't cook much more than whatever comes out of the microwave,
> either, so I don't need a gas oven. I 'spose I could just rip out the
> propane tank & lines altogether! Or am I crazy?
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
>
 
Dave

It's nice to have a back-up system. And if you ever sell it, the new
owners might like it.

Wayne Newland F9300 75 Palm Beach Columbia, Md

> Call me crazy, but I used an oil-filled 1500 watt electric home space
> heater (looks like an old steam radiator) to keep the inside toasty
> while I puttered in it this winter. Worked fine, if a little bulky.
> For as little as I need heat (went to survival school in the Cascades
> in October '84, after all), I was wondering if I could get by without
> propane at all by using either it or one of those compact ceramic
> electric heaters while hooked up to shore power or running generator.
> I don't cook much more than whatever comes out of the microwave,
> either, so I don't need a gas oven. I 'spose I could just rip out the
> propane tank & lines altogether! Or am I crazy?
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
 
I also do some boating and have found a lot of marine products which are
fuel efficient and well designed. One is a stove made by a company called
Kenyon. It has 2 electric burners and a third which runs off a small butane
bottle. This would allow you to do some dry camping without going over to a
propane set up. Just a thought.

I live in the NY area, and always found the inability to travel through
tunnels a pain. This wasn't the primary reason for my propane switch, but it
was another factor.

Tony

- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: GMC: Furnace

> In a message dated 02/10/2000 10:43:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>
> dry camping, so I will have to put the gas system in. If you do pull the
gas
> out, I'd be willing to take the components off your hands.
>
> JR Wheeler 77 Transmode NC
>
 
Was wondering if anyone had seen these symptoms before in relation to a
Sol-Aire furnace in a 76 Palm Beach. It puts out heat but for only a
couple
of minutes and then shuts off.
Gary,
Has it heated since the symptoms started occuring? Mine did the same
thing. Everything worked but the ignition. After a brief period, the
thing pops the reset. I followed the T/S guide in the manual. When I
got to the point where it said to hit the reset, turn it on, set the
temp higher that the outside temp, then check for propane odor coming
from the outside vents, I could smell propane. Hence my decision just to
pull it & toss it. If half of the bad things written here about the
Solair units are true, I'd rather spend the money on a new one & not
have the worries.
I will add that there was some corrosion inside of the unit and the
cheesy tack welds on both mounting flanges broke easily during removal.
The new ones are better, quieter & much safer.
HTH,
Steve F.
 
Here is what i posted already Arch and nothing has changed.

Zak I have several serious problems with Cinnabars engineering of the
suburban replacement furnace. In fact I now question whether it should have
been selected at all as the solaires replacement.

1. The cinnabar instructions furnished with the kit does not mention nor
does it leave room for a gas shutoff at the furnace like the original.

2. I was told by a Cinnabar employee that the Z aluminum member could be
safely removed from the coach entirely so that the suburban furnace exhaust
could be properly installed. And in fact they have done hundreds of them
that way. I believe that elimination of this Z bar could create a serious
problem. The Z bar serves a very crucial SAFETY purpose in the GMC
motorhome. That members sole purpose is to stop the LP gas line from
vibrating and creating a leak. If a leak developes at that location behind
the cabinet, I believe it is possible that an explosion could result due to
the close proximity of the furnace.

3. No instructions or parts list to adapt the 4 inch heat runs to the 3 1/2
inch and smaller registers.In addition Cinnabar says that all of the old
heat runs be removed and new 4 inch runs be installed. codes directs that
all heat runs have at least a 1 inch clearance from cabinets unless the duct
material is UL listed. We do not have that clearance in some areas.

4. Elimination of the heat run to the bath

5. Electrical pig tail from the suburban furnace to the old solaire wiring
is over 12" to short. The solaire connector is on the left of the furnace
and the suburban on the right.

6. I can find no indicator of the suburban model or part number on any of
the literature provided by Cinnabar or on the shipping box or furnace. This
overlooked fact makes it impossible to properly size the heat runs or the
clearances for the furnaces.

Cinnabar did one thing for the furnace. They installed a heavy gauge plate
across the back, since the furnace can not be installed flush with the
outside wall as required by suburban installtion directions. Without this
plate the control board will burn up and the furnace will overheat and
malfunction. Bottom line you cannot buy an off the shelf Suburban furnace
and install it in the GMC motorhome, unless you add this plate.THIS IS VERY
IMPORTANT.

Well back to the installtion and trying to get it done. I am taking
pictures of what I am doing and will write it up so the next guy can do it
the easy way.

>Tom,
>
>Thanks for posting this experience here. It is sure to help others in the
>future whether they are deciding which furnace to get or trying to intall this
>same one.
>
>Sadly, I am not surprised that C shipped out a part for a GMC that does not
>actually fit a GMC without extensive modifications. I have been warning this
>for some time now. I find this to be just another example of C finding their
>own stuff to be golden while everyone else's is not. I'm a little surprised
>to see they are giving out the ok to hack up an aluminum member. First of
>all, GM doesn't make money putting extra aluminum into their vehicles, so I
>would think it must serve some purpose. Secondly, this really seems like just
>the thing C would blast if this furnace were sold by a competitor. I hope
>this whole thing has opened some eyes here.
>
>Zak
>
>
>

>Tom
>
>Some time back you said that those of us who put in an off the
>shelf Suburban furnace were going to burn up something. Sure
>would like to hear what that was. Fired mine up today. Seemed
>to run just fine. Melted all the snow off the old girl. Trying to
>understand why it would operate different in a GMC than it
>does in a SOB. TIA
>
>Billy is the one you have a Cinnabar or an off the shelf model? How
>about some of the rest of you? Been doing propane today if you cant
>tell.
>
>Take Care
>Arch
>
>
 
Tom,
The PO of my coach had Cinnabar (it was Buskrik then) install a new
furnace in September 1988 (38,000 miles ago) and I assume it was installed
as recommend today. With all the slams about the C installed furnace
I thought I would remark on how their job works after 12 years.

> 1. The cinnabar instructions furnished with the kit does not mention nor
> does it leave room for a gas shutoff at the furnace like the original.

I don't have a shutoff valve. I plan on installing one this Spring. If I recall
it looks like there is room in there to do so.

> 2. I was told by a Cinnabar employee that the Z aluminum member could be
> safely removed from the coach entirely so that the suburban furnace exhaust
> could be properly installed. And in fact they have done hundreds of them
> that way.

I never knew about the "Z member" until these posts. The gas line seems
secure however. I checked that out very closely because I had a gas leak
last Fall that was later determined to be in the cook top.

> 3. No instructions or parts list to adapt the 4 inch heat runs to the 3 1/2
> inch and smaller registers.In addition Cinnabar says that all of the old
> heat runs be removed and new 4 inch runs be installed.

Yes, in mine there is very little clearance for the heat runs as stated. I've
wondered about this in the past. However, they don't seem to get very hot,
even close to the furnace.

> 4. Elimination of the heat run to the bath

I'd like to have some heat in the bath. I've always wondered about why they
got rid of the bath heat. I guess it just never worked. The bath gets real cold
in cold weather.

> 5. Electrical pig tail from the suburban furnace to the old solaire wiring
> is over 12" to short. The solaire connector is on the left of the furnace
> and the suburban on the right.

The present wiring is suspect. I'm going to have to redo that. I don't think in
my case it has anything to do with the pig tail that was provided.

> 6. I can find no indicator of the suburban model or part number on any of
> the literature provided by Cinnabar or on the shipping box or furnace.

This is something I've always wondered about. There is nothing to say what
model or size furnace I have. I know it is adequate, even when the outside temp
is 15 degrees (that's the coldest I've camped). The fan runs continuously when its

that cold.

> Cinnabar did one thing for the furnace. They installed a heavy gauge plate
> across the back, THIS IS VERY
> IMPORTANT.

I've never seen that plate. I'll look for it the next time I have the coach and
think
the furnace.

The bottom line is that my furnace seems to run fine the way it was installed.
There have been no problems since I've had the coach. I did have to replace the
circuit board in the furnace last year though. That was kind of difficult as there

was no obvious way to get at the board. I had to cut the furnace apart to R&R
the board. The new board is much better then the original was. That was no fault
of
Cinnabar.

I have to think Cinnabar is very aware of the liability they would face if there
was a fire caused by their method of furnace installation. I also think that they
actually know what they are doing. I'm not worried at all about how my
furnace was installed. I am however going to make some changes, like redoing
the wiring and installing a gas shutoff valve.

Just my 2 cents worth,
Richard Waters '76PB, Troy, MI
 
Hi Arch,

My Suburban NT-30SP, Replaced by P.O. unsure where she got it or who
installed. Also unsure where the GMC plate should be located, Is it between
furnace/control board? It looks like it has been in for awhile, and has been
running good except for my fan noise, which I fixed, and ran great while in
CA. on my last trip. hope it stays that way for a while.

Ron&Gina
73 Pumpkin-Rose
Ft. Mohave, AZ.

- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: GMC: Furnace

> In a message dated 02/12/2000 11:39:27 PM Central Standard Time,

>
> > Without this
> > plate the control board will burn up and the furnace will overheat and
> > malfunction. Bottom line you cannot buy an off the shelf Suburban
furnace
> > and install it in the GMC motorhome, unless you add this plate.THIS IS
VERY
> > IMPORTANT.
>
> Tom
>
> Thanks. Going to talk to my local dealer about this. He sold me the
> furnace and did not tell me about this. I will check it out. Any body
> else know about this?
>
> Take Care
> Arch
 
Hi all,

The back of my Suburban is closed off except for the intake and exhaust
ducts IIRC, My blower intake slots is on the right side top rear of the
furnace. Guess its OK, Have ran it for two weeks from about 8PM till morning
while in CA. on last trip with no problem.

Ron&Gina
73 Pumpkin-Rose
Ft. Mohave, AZ.

- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: Furnace

> In a message dated 02/13/2000 3:41:16 PM Central Standard Time,

>
> > A Suburban tech man, when asked, told me I could buy it from Cinnabar,
> > but I could make or get it locally cheaper. It does not come with the
> > furnace. For proper operation of the furnace, the end must be closed
off.
> >
> Andy
>
> I am probably going to go down in flames on this one but here goes. I am
> having a big problem with this line of thought. I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE
> WRONG. When I look at the furnace all of the slots are around the back
end.
> These are air intake holes for the fan that blows hot air in the coach. My
> instructions that came with my Suburban NT-34SP says to "position the
> furnace as close to the wall as possible so that you have as much overlap
> on the exhaust and intake tubes as possible". No where does it say I
> should be concerned about air leaks at the back of the furnace. How
> can an air leak back there where all of the slots are make a difference?
> The circuit board is in the forward part of the furnace. With the solid
door
> that is on it not much air will be sucked from there. I will wait for
morning
> to try to find out more. Right now I dont know what to think. Sure would
> like to here from some of you that have newer Suburbans---if you can get
> a mirror or a hand back there---is there a plate back there? I drove
through
> some storage lots today if we have this problem then so do Airstreams
> and mid 80s Winnebago. Cant believe it aint in the instructions.
>
> Tom you were right about the temps coming out of the ducts. On the
> front of my furnace there is a huge metal tag. One of the things it says
> is that there should be a 100d rise in temps across the heat exchanger.
> With a maximum output of 200d. I have worked on a lot of home furnaces
> and mobile home furnaces and I have never seen number this high. I was
> wrong.
>
> Take Care
> Arch
 
Arch

Maybe someone who has purchased a Suburban should call their attention to their
oversight.

Wayne Newland F9300 75 Palm Beach Columbia, Md

> In a message dated 02/14/2000 8:40:56 PM Central Standard Time,

>
> > As I remember, my post said I was told by Cinnabar, Buskirk, Camping
> > World and Suburban that a closure was needed. I make my share of mistakes
> > and
> > then some, but I thought that was good enough information for me to follow
> > without trying to understand the why of it.
>
> Andy
>
> You had 4 sources---better than my three. Just burns me that there is
> nothing in the Suburban installation manual about this. After all there are
> plenty of other coaches that have rounded sides.
>
> Take Care
> Arch
 
....snip......
> Bill at Suburban--he said that by the back being open, the
>return air would not be drawing across the board. All you have to do to
>correct the problem is to install a piece of sheetmetal on the back of the
>case and cut holes for the vents to pass thru--that way the air will go thru
>the side vents and cool PC board.
........snip......

A light bulb just came on over my head.

I wonder if that's why I had to replace the $100 IC card to get my Suburban
to work last year? I'll do some checking now. I can't remember if the
back of mine was closed or not.

Thanks Arch!
bdub
 
> Wonder how many circuit
> boards have been lost to furnaces not installed right? If any of you are
> wondering the one I am talking about is the old style one. Big boxy
> one. There is a new style one that is only about 7.5 inches tall. That
> is not the one we are talking about here.
>

Arch,
Now you've done it! You have just added another item to my list of
things to worry about in my Lady. I also have the "Big boxy" furnace and
I burned out a control board last year for no apparent reason. Now I have
to wonder if my furnace was installed properly. It was installed by Buskrik
12
year ago.

I sure don't want to spend another $150 (that's what I paid) for a new
control
board anytime soon. I'm going out to the storage lot tonight to take a
look.
Richard Waters '76 PB, Troy, MI
 
>In a message dated 02/14/2000 3:33:57 PM Central Standard Time,

>
> > I wonder if that's why I had to replace the $100 IC card to get my
> Suburban
> > to work last year?
>
>Billy
>
>What's the verdict? Is the back closed off or not? The next question is
>do you have room on the sides for it to draw air. Darn the instructions
>say 0 inches clearance on sides. How is it going to draw air without
>any clearance?

My Surburban furnace does NOT have the back plate on it. :-(.....

There is only an inch on the front side of the case to draw air. Worlds of
room on all other sides. It does have a shut-off between the case and the
front wall of the cabinet.

Guess I'd better take the dern thing out and fasten a piece of sheet metal
on the back of it. Crap! That thing's hard to get out! But better than
buying another IC card I guess.

bdub
 
Thanks Andy

I'm SOL on that one though.

bdub

>The Suburban Furnace has a one year warranty on parts and labor and four
>additional years on the heat exchanger for parts only. Don't know if that can
>help anybody, but it might be worth writing a letter if you have experienced
>expense.
>
>Andy M, PA
 
Arch,
Mine is pretty easy to get out, Seems like the best way is to pull the case
and all out, to get the job done right and stick it back in. And let the
heat, heat what it should and be done with it!! But like you said it should
be in the instructions!!!! no matter what coach you have!!!

Ron&Gina
73 Pumpkin-Rose
Ft. Mohave,AZ.

- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: GMC: Furnace

> In a message dated 02/15/2000 4:07:52 PM Central Standard Time,

>
> > Guess I'd better take the dern thing out and fasten a piece of sheet
metal
> > on the back of it. Crap! That thing's hard to get out! But better
than
> > buying another IC card I guess.
> >
> Billy
>
> I got an e-mail from my local RV dealer today that may save us some work.
> I had sent them mail that I was not a happy camper. Here it is.
>
> We certainly was not aware of this either. I am sure this is not the
normal
> installation is why they do not put it in the instructions but agree it
> should be. That is what you get installed when you order one for the GMC.
> I'm sure you can do it a lot cheaper yourself and not have to get your
parts
> from them. Look at it that way and maybe your pulling it back out won't
be
> as bad. Curt said you do not have to pull the case out--just pull the
> furance out of the case--make your plate with holes--slide it into the
case
> then reinstall the furnace--if you have any questions call Curt.
> Shirley
>
> I have not looked at it yet but if there is a lip on the back we might be
able
> to slide in a piece of metal without taking out the case. HTH
>
> Take Care
> Arch
 
>GMCers
>
>Well, here it is my take on the furnace thing. I have no idea if I did it
>right or not. I will tell you that I am getting real fed up with this project.
>There is nothing in the instructions that say I need to be concerned about
>how the back of the furnace is closed in. I honestly think that the net is
>our only hope to solve some of these problems.

> Please dont take what I have done as gospel.

What did you do Arch?

>I was flying blind on this one. I have let it run for 48
>hours now----keeping the motorhome at 74 in these cold days and she is
>still running. Cant tell you how long it will run. What I do know is that the
>board is still working and no burned fiberglass on the outside.
>
>Take Care
>Arch
 
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