Fuel Level Senders

[adolph santorine]

You know the quarantine is getting to you when you’re thinking about dropping the fuel tanks to replace the senders.

Anyone familiar with these folks:

https://ciescorp.net/ https://ciescorp.net/

Check out this article:

https://ciescorp.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/80-86_EXP_CiES_1910.pdf https://ciescorp.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/80-86_EXP_CiES_1910.pdf

A friend who’s a current pilot put me on to these… it’s really terrific technology. Aircraft tanks look a lot like GMC Motorhome tanks (shallow, wide, and without sufficient baffling).

But $500. Ouch.

So we fill up every 250 miles!

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

 

[6cuda61]

Those are really nice looking but at 500$ i think i would just use my odometer or some phone app. JMHO.
--
Rich Mondor,

Brockville, ON

77 Hughes 2600

 

[Bruce Hart]

Check your plug connection on the drivers side where the three wires
including the wire for the selector valve for corrosion. If so hard wire
the connection. If you take your senders out check the positive connection
deteriorated insulation causing it to ground out. Does your senders
register full (break in connection) or empty(grounded out).

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:10 AM 6cuda6--- via Gmclist <

> Those are really nice looking but at 500$ i think i would just use my
> odometer or some phone app. JMHO.
> --
> Rich Mondor,
>
> Brockville, ON
>
> 77 Hughes 2600
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class

 

[Winter]

I've used Fozmula senders in the past in other applications. They're cut to length and self calibrate. Minimum length is right at the limit for the
GMC tank height. They have a bolt flange, so maybe an adapter that goes from the GM style to a bolted style that also gave some additional height
would work. There is a version that has supply, vent, and return lines built in.

My senders still work so I haven't had to give these a try. They may be an alternate option though.
--
Jerrod Winter
1977 Palm Beach
Green Jelly Bean
Twin Cities, Minnesota

 

[Richard RV]

Better fuel senders still won't "fix" the unfortunately wide and shallow gas tank design. These might:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N_jsSPRUTSA
Gets good reviews:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-16-111

Gary Kosier posted about these on the GMC-EFI mailing list a couple or three years back. I'd _love_ being able to use 90% of the tanks' capacity
instead of carrying 10 gallons of inventory. In-tank pumps and the Holley mats would be sweet.

Anybody install them? In any vehicle?

Richard

--
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach with 18,477 verified miles;
‘76 Edgemonte

 

[Ken B]

Gasoline gauges in aircraft are notoriously in accurate. The only FAA requirement is they must read empty when the airplane runs out of fuel.

Everyone I know fills up and then flies by time and not the gauges. I carry 5.3 hours of fuel and at 4 hours start looking for where I will stop and
fill up again.

I would not trust anything used in aviation for fuel gauges. Running out is not fun. I did it once.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

 

[adolph santorine]

Ken:

I’ve never trusted aircraft fuel gauges, but this is a whole new technology.

Fortunately, I’ve never run out of fuel when in the air.

Take a look it makes a lot of sense.

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

>
> Gasoline gauges in aircraft are notoriously in accurate. The only FAA requirement is they must read empty when the airplane runs out of fuel.
>
> Everyone I know fills up and then flies by time and not the gauges. I carry 5.3 hours of fuel and at 4 hours start looking for where I will stop and
> fill up again.
>
> I would not trust anything used in aviation for fuel gauges. Running out is not fun. I did it once.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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[adolph santorine]

Thanks for the lead on Fozmula. Interesting tech.

Some idea of the cost?

Also, 200 mm (7.87”) is the minimum. I don’t remember the depth of the tank.

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

>
> I've used Fozmula senders in the past in other applications. They're cut to length and self calibrate. Minimum length is right at the limit for the
> GMC tank height. They have a bolt flange, so maybe an adapter that goes from the GM style to a bolted style that also gave some additional height
> would work. There is a version that has supply, vent, and return lines built in.
>
> My senders still work so I haven't had to give these a try. They may be an alternate option though.
> --
> Jerrod Winter
> 1977 Palm Beach
> Green Jelly Bean
> Twin Cities, Minnesota
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[Dean The ResourcefulNorse]

I have talked to that company recently as I had need to get a fuel gauge
repaired in my Navajo. First there are two senders in each tank, and 4 tanks
in the aircraft so that's 8 units. Then, and this is a biggie, there is the
gauge that works with these digital senders for a thou. Just like a b/o/a/t.
Actually, although you could divide the 4 tanks on one gauge, you would want
two, so $2000. Then there is the rewire necessary as the senders takes
power. Then in an aircraft, there is the paperwork and inspection.

So probably about $8 to $10K for the job.

Dean Hanson 75 Avion.

 

[Ken B]

I ran out of fuel because I got distracted at dusk with a total electrical failure. It gets your attention real quick.

I will stay with my stop watch. 4 hours, 4.5 maximum and I set down. I can buy a lot of fuel and stop watches for the cost of those. 1/2 hour
switch tanks, repeat over and over until you reach 4 hours.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

 

[adolph santorine]

There’s always a balance between “KISS” (Keep It Simple Stupid) and better.

Cost is a factor, too.

But I don’t know anyone who’s a fan of resistance based level sensors in any environment.

The Gas and Oil people in our area us a radar based level sensor that would NOT be practical for anything that we are doing.

Guided wave and pulse.

Cost more than my parts coach!

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

>
> I have talked to that company recently as I had need to get a fuel gauge
> repaired in my Navajo. First there are two senders in each tank, and 4 tanks
> in the aircraft so that's 8 units. Then, and this is a biggie, there is the
> gauge that works with these digital senders for a thou. Just like a b/o/a/t.
> Actually, although you could divide the 4 tanks on one gauge, you would want
> two, so $2000. Then there is the rewire necessary as the senders takes
> power. Then in an aircraft, there is the paperwork and inspection.
>
> So probably about $8 to $10K for the job.
>
> Dean Hanson 75 Avion.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[dave stragand1]

A DeLorean has an unbaffled, triangular fuel tank. With the stock sender, the needle moves constantly. The replacement senders have a reservoir around the float with a bunch of small holes. The fuel slowly leaks in or out of the reservoir to help minimize needle bounce. Might be an avenue for those of you who might want to re-engineer a new style one.

 

[Jim Hupy]

The problem is not with the senders. There is a threefold problem as I see
it.
1. Long, wide, shallow tank, × 2.
2. No baffles in the tank.
3. Owner expectation is impossible to achieve considering the limitations
of the systems OEM gages, tank shape and construction. This includes all
the sloshing back and forth between the two tanks.
If you were really serious about knowing exactly how much fuel was in
each tank, a separate filler neck for each tank is a good starting place,
along with no interconnection between tanks. That way, what fuel that is
placed in each tank remains until it is consumed.
A single tank might be a consideration, also. Manny does this with his
diesel conversions.
Or, you could do what I and numerous others do. Before you start your
days travel, fill the tanks. Then, drive 250 miles and refill it. Forget
about what the gage tells you. There is no way, given the original setup,
that you can trust that gage to give you even a hint of tank contents
enough to run it down by 40 gallons or so.
250 miles equates to somewhere around 30 gallons used if you figure your
all around mileage at 8 mpg or so. Just what I do, your way is yours.
I just remember how heavy a 5 gallon gas can is to walk back with when you
run 'er out of gas.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Mon, May 11, 2020, 4:23 PM Dave Stragand via Gmclist <

> A DeLorean has an unbaffled, triangular fuel tank. With the stock sender,
> the needle moves constantly. The replacement senders have a reservoir
> around the float with a bunch of small holes. The fuel slowly leaks in or
> out of the reservoir to help minimize needle bounce. Might be an avenue for
> those of you who might want to re-engineer a new style one.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[Matt Colie]

Lots of little bits to add here, most for fun.

When first reading pilot training books, I came across the line that said," If the fuel quantity is reporting as zero, then you should believe it." I
thought that was a good idea.

A short note of interest here about pilots taping instrument. Did you know that some large aircraft actually have a device on the panel to shake it?
Nothing I ever flew could possibly need that, but I came across one of the shakers some where in a military surplus bin.

As a pilot of both air and watercraft, I have always kept careful track of my fuel inventory when it mattered. (Sailboats don't care very much.)

I have learned that Chaumière can be very manageable. More than a few times I have been able to take on over 50 gallons at a stop. These stops were
always expected, and it was never a surprise. My all time record was 53.3. That was close to home and I was getting nervous, but the place I was
supposed to be stopping was involved in some sort of a police emergency so I went past it. It should be noted here that the mod to the fill vent
lines makes it so I can fuel reliable to the fill neck if the vapor valve behaves. I do not suggest this as a standard operation.

Just because I could, one of the too many times I had to take the fuel tanks down, I ran both tanks down to where she was stumbling on the main and
there could not have been much in the auxiliary. As I lucked out and both drain plugs are usable and have been maintained (don't count on this), I
was able to do a very controlled drain and got just a little more than 5 gallons out of the two tanks. That is to say that the main tank left space
in the first Jeep can and auxiliary did not fill the other can. When poured together, there was not much left in the lighter of the cans.

Stay healthy out there.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

 

[adolph santorine]

Great stuff, Matt.

Just about everything I’ve done that required mechanical or electro-mechanical gauges had “tap the face” as part of the reading procedure.

Boudin tube gauges on a welding rig, meters on an amateur or broadcast transmitter. Always fuel gauges in about everything.

VU meters kind of took care of themselves.

I’m almost feeling sorry for the younger guys who get to look at digital gauges, where tapping the face won’t be a “thing”.

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

>
> Lots of little bits to add here, most for fun.
>
> When first reading pilot training books, I came across the line that said," If the fuel quantity is reporting as zero, then you should believe it." I
> thought that was a good idea.
>
> A short note of interest here about pilots taping instrument. Did you know that some large aircraft actually have a device on the panel to shake it?
> Nothing I ever flew could possibly need that, but I came across one of the shakers some where in a military surplus bin.
>
> As a pilot of both air and watercraft, I have always kept careful track of my fuel inventory when it mattered. (Sailboats don't care very much.)
>
> I have learned that Chaumière can be very manageable. More than a few times I have been able to take on over 50 gallons at a stop. These stops were
> always expected, and it was never a surprise. My all time record was 53.3. That was close to home and I was getting nervous, but the place I was
> supposed to be stopping was involved in some sort of a police emergency so I went past it. It should be noted here that the mod to the fill vent
> lines makes it so I can fuel reliable to the fill neck if the vapor valve behaves. I do not suggest this as a standard operation.
>
> Just because I could, one of the too many times I had to take the fuel tanks down, I ran both tanks down to where she was stumbling on the main and
> there could not have been much in the auxiliary. As I lucked out and both drain plugs are usable and have been maintained (don't count on this), I
> was able to do a very controlled drain and got just a little more than 5 gallons out of the two tanks. That is to say that the main tank left space
> in the first Jeep can and auxiliary did not fill the other can. When poured together, there was not much left in the lighter of the cans.
>
> Stay healthy out there.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[Matt Colie]

> Great stuff, Matt.
>
> Just about everything I’ve done that required mechanical or electro-mechanical gauges had “tap the face” as part of the reading procedure.
>
> Boudin tube gauges on a welding rig, meters on an amateur or broadcast transmitter. Always fuel gauges in about everything.
>
> VU meters kind of took care of themselves.
>
> I’m almost feeling sorry for the younger guys who get to look at digital gauges, where tapping the face won’t be a “thing”.
>
> Dolph

Dolph,

Did you ever find yourself tapping a digital readout??

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

 

[adolph santorine]

Only when it was blank.

Then I employed the “90% of electronics problems are mechanical” and flogged it mercilessly.

Don’t fix it. Use a bigger hammer.

Dolph Santorine

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 ex-Palm Beach TZE167V100820
Howell EFI/EBL , Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

>

>> Great stuff, Matt.
>>
>> Just about everything I’ve done that required mechanical or electro-mechanical gauges had “tap the face” as part of the reading procedure.
>>
>> Boudin tube gauges on a welding rig, meters on an amateur or broadcast transmitter. Always fuel gauges in about everything.
>>
>> VU meters kind of took care of themselves.
>>
>> I’m almost feeling sorry for the younger guys who get to look at digital gauges, where tapping the face won’t be a “thing”.
>>
>> Dolph
>
> Dolph,
>
> Did you ever find yourself tapping a digital readout??
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[ekbyker]

I put one of these Fuel level sender[,capacitive type,no moving,cut to length] in my 72 GMC pickup truck a couple of years ago found on Ebay works
real good nothing to were out [except electronics ] so far I like it Eelko Byker

 

[Ken H.]

Y'All don't seem to know the USAF SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) which
every student must learn the first day of flight training: *2KTOIP* (2
Knuckle Taps On the Instrument Panel) before any significant instrument
reading.

Ken H.

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:11 AM Matt Colie via Gmclist <

> > Great stuff, Matt.
> >
> > Just about everything I’ve done that required mechanical or
> electro-mechanical gauges had “tap the face” as part of the reading
> procedure.
> >
> > Boudin tube gauges on a welding rig, meters on an amateur or broadcast
> transmitter. Always fuel gauges in about everything.
> >
> > VU meters kind of took care of themselves.
> >
> > I’m almost feeling sorry for the younger guys who get to look at digital
> gauges, where tapping the face won’t be a “thing”.
> >
> > Dolph
>
> Dolph,
>
> Did you ever find yourself tapping a digital readout??
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>