FRIGC Conversion

[phil swanson]

Bob,
Propane and Butane are basically the same thing. The problem with
59% R134a in the FRIGC mixed with propane (butane) at 2% is that as
you know, without modifications to the seals, hoses and compressor, the
R134 molecules will leak down but the propane will not. Then you add
more FRIGC and you have just doubled your propane ratio and on and on.
My propane system for heating and cooking in the coach is not a good
analogy because that system is designed to burn propane and it doesn't
compress the stuff and use it for a refrigerant. The EPA doesn't care
and is not concerned with the propane in FRIGC because all they want is
to get rid of R-12. They don't know the mechanics of air conditioning .
I don't know about you, but I won't put propane in my a/c system.
Instead I am going to Tijuana, only 20 miles away, to fill it up with
R-12. All kidding aside, most all of the shops and auto parts stores
have gotten rid of all drop in refrigerants with propane in them because
they don't want to be liable for a fire and most shops will not even
service a system that has propane in them for fear of contaminating
their recycle equipment. In my area (San Diego) nobody professionally
will mess with the stuff. Maybe it's because they make more doing R134
conversions, maybe not. I'm not willing to take the chance in my GMC.

Regards, Phil Swanson

 

[scott woodworth]

Phil,

The only reason the propane is in there in the first place is to act
as a mixing agent. Without it, the two other components, R-134A and
R-500 would not mix.

- -Scott Woodworth

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" -Henny Penny

 

[brewer bob]

Phil,

Thanks for the response. Propane and butane are similar in that they
are both, by themselves, flammable gases. Chemically, they are very
different, and are not necessarily interchangable. They act differently
as mixed refrigerants, as well. Butane is C4H12, and propane is
CH3CH2CH3. There are no approved R12 replacements with propane; there
are several with butane or isobutane.

I think the change in percentages due to leakage is no longer a valid
argument, as, at least here on the left coast, it is common to evacuate
the system (recycling the product)
when there is a leak that large. Presumably, you'd have to leak out the
entire system numerous times without evacuation before recharging before
you'd even approach being flammable.

I can't honestly say how much butane it would take to make a refrigerant
flammable, but I know there are several approved with twice as much
butane or isobutane as FrigC. Beware the annecdotal stories of cars
exploding, etc.

You are correct about R134a being able to leak out of non-barrier hoses
other compounds staying behind, but most retrofits include barrier
hoses, and for some replacements are required by law.

All that said, FrigC would still not be my first choice. I'd look at
GHG-X4/Autofrost/ Chill-It, R406a, or GHG-HP, all of which are more
efficient refrigerants than R134a.

Regards,

Bob

- -----Original Message-----
From: Phil Swanson [mailtohil]
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 1998 10:01 PM
To: gmcmotorhome
Subject: GMC: FRIGC Conversion

Bob,
Propane and Butane are basically the same thing. The problem with
59% R134a in the FRIGC mixed with propane (butane) at 2% is that as
you know, without modifications to the seals, hoses and compressor, the
R134 molecules will leak down but the propane will not. Then you add
more FRIGC and you have just doubled your propane ratio and on and on.
My propane system for heating and cooking in the coach is not a good
analogy because that system is designed to burn propane and it doesn't
compress the stuff and use it for a refrigerant. The EPA doesn't care
and is not concerned with the propane in FRIGC because all they want is
to get rid of R-12. They don't know the mechanics of air conditioning .
I don't know about you, but I won't put propane in my a/c system.
Instead I am going to Tijuana, only 20 miles away, to fill it up with
R-12. All kidding aside, most all of the shops and auto parts stores
have gotten rid of all drop in refrigerants with propane in them because
they don't want to be liable for a fire and most shops will not even
service a system that has propane in them for fear of contaminating
their recycle equipment. In my area (San Diego) nobody professionally
will mess with the stuff. Maybe it's because they make more doing R134
conversions, maybe not. I'm not willing to take the chance in my GMC.

Regards, Phil Swanson

 

[bartz paul]

FYI, if you want to see the EPA list of R-12 replacement refrigerants,
go to: http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/6091/609.html , scroll down and
click on the underlined words 'new substitutes' to view the listing.

FrigC is listed as acceptable (i. e. see column 2 of the table at the
bottom of the page).

Paul Bartz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brewer, Bob [SMTP:rebrewer]
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 1998 5:58 PM
> To: 'gmcmotorhome'
> Subject: RE: GMC: FRIGC Conversion
>
> Phil,
>
> Thanks for the response. Propane and butane are similar in that they
> are both, by themselves, flammable gases. Chemically, they are very
> different, and are not necessarily interchangeable. They act
> differently as mixed refrigerants, as well. Butane is C4H12, and
> propane is CH3CH2CH3. There are no approved R12 replacements with
> propane; there are several with butane or isobutane.
>
> I think the change in percentages due to leakage is no longer a valid
> argument, as, at least here on the left coast, it is common to
> evacuate the system (recycling the product) when there is a leak that
> large. Presumably, you'd have to leak out the entire system numerous
> times without evacuation before recharging before you'd even approach
> being flammable.
>
> I can't honestly say how much butane it would take to make a
> refrigerant flammable, but I know there are several approved with
> twice as much butane or isobutane as FrigC. Beware the anecdotal
> stories of cars exploding, etc.
>
> You are correct about R134a being able to leak out of non-barrier
> hoses other compounds staying behind, but most retrofits include
> barrier hoses, and for some replacements are required by law.
>
> All that said, FrigC would still not be my first choice. I'd look at
> GHG-X4/Autofrost/Chill-It, R406a, or GHG-HP, all of which are more
> efficient refrigerants than R134a.
>
> Bob
>
>
> From: Phil Swanson [mailtohil]
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 1998 10:01 PM
> Subject: GMC: FRIGC Conversion
>
> Bob,
>
> Propane and Butane are basically the same thing. The problem with 59%
> R134a in the FRIGC mixed with propane (butane) at 2% is that as you
> know, without modifications to the seals, hoses and compressor, the
> R134 molecules will leak down but the propane will not. Then you add
> more FRIGC and you have just doubled your propane ratio and on and on.
> My propane system for heating and cooking in the coach is not a good
> analogy because that system is designed to burn propane and it doesn't
> compress the stuff and use it for a refrigerant. The EPA doesn't
> care and is not concerned with the propane in FRIGC because all they
> want is to get rid of R-12. They don't know the mechanics of air
> conditioning .
>
> I don't know about you, but I won't put propane in my a/c system.
> Instead I am going to Tijuana, only 20 miles away, to fill it up with
> R-12. All kidding aside, most all of the shops and auto parts stores
> have gotten rid of all drop in refrigerants with propane in them
> because they don't want to be liable for a fire and most shops will
> not even service a system that has propane in them for fear of
> contaminating their recycle equipment. In my area (San Diego) nobody
> professionally will mess with the stuff. Maybe it's because they
> make more doing R134 conversions, maybe not. I'm not willing to take
> the chance in my GMC.
>
> Phil Swanson