Found loose axle nut - what should I do next?

B

billvv

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2015
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In the process of replacing front end ball joints, bushings, etc. I discovered that the axle nut was finger tight. The cotter pin was still in place.
The PO had this bearing replaced about 5 yrs ago. I had been feeling a soft 'bump', 'bump' in the steering wheel for awhile when correcting to the
right at speed.

- Put it back together and tighten it?
- Remove the bearing and inspect the them and the knuckle?
- Something else?

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
Bill,

If you like gambling tighten it up and go.

If you want to make sure you're not out in the middle of nowhere and the bearing fails I'd suggest you remove the bearing and check
them.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Bill Van Vlack
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2018 3:10 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: [GMCnet] Found loose axle nut - what should I do next?

In the process of replacing front end ball joints, bushings, etc. I discovered that the axle nut was finger tight. The cotter pin
was still in place.
The PO had this bearing replaced about 5 yrs ago. I had been feeling a soft 'bump', 'bump' in the steering wheel for awhile when
correcting to the
right at speed.

- Put it back together and tighten it?
- Remove the bearing and inspect the them and the knuckle?
- Something else?

--
Bill Van Vlack
 
I'll tell you my story, maybe it will help.

After purchase, I had run my coach about 1,000 miles and I could hear a steering knock under certain circumstances. I always checked the bearing temps
and never saw high temps.
I finally jacked up the front and I found that if I put a hand on top of the tire and one on the bottom, I could rock the wheel and imitate what I was
feeling.
I pulled the dust covers off and found a loose nut on the driver side, I chalked it up to previous mechanic incompetence and tightened it down to
about 150 ft.lbs.
After another thousand miles (and normal temps) I checked the nut and it was loose again. I knew something was up by then. I crossed my fingers,
tightened it again, and drove 750 miles to the Elkhart GMCMI rally. When Dave Lenzi saw me rock the tire, he said I'd never make it home. I pulled it
off at the campground, with an audience. But a friendly audience with lots of experience and advice.
Dave put together an impromptu class for us to watch him do his magic. When he got the hub off, we found my race was shattered into about half a dozen
pieces. I was just tightening the slack in my fractured race.
Dave put me back together. I saved the bearing race for memories, made the Vintage RVing magazine when Kim Weeks took a photo of me working on my
coach, Dad and I made it home without a hitch.
All this for $40 in annual dues. Man, I am so thankful I bought a GMC, and I am so grateful for GMCMI.

-Ty
--
Ty Hardiman, Norman, OK / Member FMCA-GMCMI-GMC Classics / August 1977 Kingsley TZE167V102390 / 26' / 403 / 3.55 / 16" Wheels / Quadrajet / HEI /
Previous Owners: Basil LeBlanc, Dan Ramker / Original Owner: William Strahm, Loveland, CO
 
Bill,

Late last summer I was helping Chuck Boyd go through the front end of my coach with the express purpose of replacing the front bearings on both sides.
Chuck found that the axle nuts on both sides had loosened up with the cotter pins still in place. Upon removal of the bearings it was found that
they still had grease but slivers of metal was contained in that grease, and the seals were ruined. He found quite a few things wrong with the front
end that he fixed and I am so grateful for. The PO had work done on the front end by two different repair shops, according to the receipts that he
gave me. One of the shops failed to torque the nuts correctly, I guess. Luckily for me, I haven't driven the coach that much. Sooooooooo, REPLACE
THE BEARINGS ALONG WITH THE RACE! Safety First.

Jerry
--
Jerry Sitzlar..... 77 Eleganza II, Twin bed, dry bath......
Lenoir City, TN
 
Ty, I heard that same story from Dave Lenzi. I will remove the bearings and check things... what should I check (apart from obvious damage)? I figure
since the bearings are the least expensive part of the whole assembly (especially since I'm doing the work myself), new bearings are a given. I assume
checks of knuckle ID and hub OD. What are the tolerances for those items? Anything else?
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
Bill,

If I were you I'd call Dave Lenzi and get the information directly from him. Also you'll need precision measuring tools.

Having noted this 10 to 1 the bearing in the "loose" side will be shot and the hub and knuckle will probably be as well.

Oh yeah, while you're at it I'd suggest you pull the other side as well.

Come to think of it you might want to give the whole front end suspension and steering a going over.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Bill Van Vlack
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 9:03 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Found loose axle nut - what should I do next?

Ty, I heard that same story from Dave Lenzi. I will remove the bearings and check things... what should I check (apart from obvious
damage)? I figure since the bearings are the least expensive part of the whole assembly (especially since I'm doing the work
myself), new bearings are a given. I assume checks of knuckle ID and hub OD. What are the tolerances for those items? Anything else?
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator;
new owner a/o mid
November 2015.

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ANYTIME you find a loose assembly with the cotter key still intact, you
need to ask yourself "How is that possible?" It isn't. Stuff is happening
inside that assembly, none of it good. Don't pull the pin and re-tighten
the nut, don't even think about doing that. Take the assembly apart and
investigate. Bearings are almost certainly coming apart, internal races
will be excessively worn, all those worn parts will be lubricated by grease
contaminated by the worn metal shavings. Do you feel lucky? Well, do you? I
don't.
Jim Hupy

> Bill,
>
> If I were you I'd call Dave Lenzi and get the information directly from
> him. Also you'll need precision measuring tools.
>
> Having noted this 10 to 1 the bearing in the "loose" side will be shot and
> the hub and knuckle will probably be as well.
>
> Oh yeah, while you're at it I'd suggest you pull the other side as well.
>
> Come to think of it you might want to give the whole front end suspension
> and steering a going over.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Bill
> Van Vlack
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 9:03 AM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Found loose axle nut - what should I do next?
>
> Ty, I heard that same story from Dave Lenzi. I will remove the bearings
> and check things... what should I check (apart from obvious
> damage)? I figure since the bearings are the least expensive part of the
> whole assembly (especially since I'm doing the work
> myself), new bearings are a given. I assume checks of knuckle ID and hub
> OD. What are the tolerances for those items? Anything else?
> --
> Bill Van Vlack
> '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath,
> Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator;
> new owner a/o mid
> November 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
I was foolish to run the coach as long as I did after I had the knowledge of the loose castle nut.

But I theorized that maybe a PO had misunderstood the front assembly instructions and had installed the nut with a light preload like the rear
bearings. So I figured tightening it up and monitoring the temp would give me more information. But it never got hot, just continued to silently grind
itself up.

I came way too close to having an on-the-road failure. Right now both sides of my hubs and knuckles are with Dave, getting all the upgrades, new
rotors, and a clean bill of health.
--
Ty Hardiman, Norman, OK / Member FMCA-GMCMI-GMC Classics / August 1977 Kingsley TZE167V102390 / 26' / 403 / 3.55 / 16" Wheels / Quadrajet / HEI /
Previous Owners: Basil LeBlanc, Dan Ramker / Original Owner: William Strahm, Loveland, CO
 
Ty,

If your coach doesn't have them get a set of 80mm calipers and install them with Performance Friction Carbon Metallic pads P/N
0052.20.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Ty Hardiman
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 10:42 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Found loose axle nut - what should I do next?

I was foolish to run the coach as long as I did after I had the knowledge of the loose castle nut.

But I theorized that maybe a PO had misunderstood the front assembly instructions and had installed the nut with a light preload
like the rear
bearings. So I figured tightening it up and monitoring the temp would give me more information. But it never got hot, just continued
to silently grind
itself up.

I came way too close to having an on-the-road failure. Right now both sides of my hubs and knuckles are with Dave, getting all the
upgrades, new
rotors, and a clean bill of health.
--
Ty Hardiman, Norman, OK / Member FMCA-GMCMI-GMC Classics / August 1977 Kingsley TZE167V102390 / 26' / 403 / 3.55 / 16" Wheels /
Quadrajet / HEI /
Previous Owners: Basil LeBlanc, Dan Ramker / Original Owner: William Strahm, Loveland, CO

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Jim,
So..... you don't think I should just tighten it then?

Rob,
One of the first things I did to the coach after we got it was to follow your excellent guide. Replaced the idler arm, installed adjustable link, and
clocked the steering box at that time. Also asked Alex check it again at Tucson and he found a loose Relay Arm - He also verified that the steering
box was correctly adjusted.

I now have the front end apart and am replacing ball joints, bushings (offset on top rear, rubber on top, Poly on bottom), tie rod ends. Having the
lower control arm ball joint seats flattened and 3/8 bolt holes milled at a machine shop. Correcting a bent sway arm perch. New adjusters and torsion
bar bolts and nuts. The tight (drivers side) bearings were replaced the week before I acquired the coach (three years ago) and I'm inclined to leave
them alone.

I found this info from a PDF by Paul Bartz:
Hub Shaft - 2.0015 to a maximum of 2.0020 inches.
Knuckle - 3.2510 to 3.2525 inches. Bore can be 0.0015 inches out of round if the average diameter is within tolerance. However, the minimum
diameter must not be less than 3.2510 inches.
Bearing - Bearing race OD measures 3.250 inches, so fit in knuckle is not interference.

I've had several recommendations to talk to Dave Lenzi and have recently, but not about these measurements. Frankly, I am grateful for his generosity
and grace in sharing information, but get the feeling that it probably interrupts either his work time or home time. I get the sense that he chooses
which products to spend time on, and as an example finding out that his idler and relay arms were at least six months out at the time I needed them I
chose to find them elsewhere.

Ty,
My conclusion was the same as yours, initially. It's good to know I am not the only foolish one, FWIW. Lordy, Lordy, I have been disabused of that
notion.



Our coaches are not going to survive in the long run unless owners have the resources to repair them correctly. There has to be a way for a
non-mechanic, non-internet research, non-national rally attendee to acquire the information necessary for their trusted and willing mechanic to work
on them apart from discovering and calling the few people in this world who are the acknowledged experts.

GMCMI should fund an ongoing project to create and maintain a 'best practices' manual from technical panels, interviews, documentation review, and
other means for the majority of owners who do not have the curiosity, skills, knowledge, and experience of most of the people that participate in this
forum.

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
Regardless of your reluctance to disturb Dave again, re-check those
dimensions with him. I think you'll find that he strongly advocates a
tighter fit -- maybe 0.0005" interference. You DO NOT want that outer race
to be loose in the knuckle.

Ken H.

On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 1:07 PM Bill Van Vlack
wrote:

> ​...
>
> I found this info from a PDF by Paul Bartz:
> Hub Shaft - 2.0015 to a maximum of 2.0020 inches.
> Knuckle - 3.2510 to 3.2525 inches. Bore can be 0.0015 inches out of
> round if the average diameter is within tolerance. However, the minimum
> diameter must not be less than 3.2510 inches.
> Bearing - Bearing race OD measures 3.250 inches, so fit in knuckle is
> not interference.
>
> I've had several recommendations to talk to Dave Lenzi and have recently,
> but not about these measurements.
> ​
>
...
>
>
 
Quote:
> However, the minimum diameter must not be less than 3.2510 inches.

So... 'must not be less than 3.2505'?
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
Ty, the assistance you provided to Kaitlin Barrett and her friend Paul in OKC a few months back has been repaid!

D C "Mac" Macdonald​
Amateur Radio K2GKK​
Since 30 November '53​
USAF and FAA, Retired​
Member GMCMI & Classics​
Oklahoma City, OK​
"The Money Pit"​
TZE166V101966​
'76 ex-Palm Beach​
k2gkk + hotmail dot com​

________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Ty Hardiman
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2018 18:11
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Found loose axle nut - what should I do next?

I'll tell you my story, maybe it will help.

After purchase, I had run my coach about 1,000 miles and I could hear a steering knock under certain circumstances. I always checked the bearing temps
and never saw high temps.
I finally jacked up the front and I found that if I put a hand on top of the tire and one on the bottom, I could rock the wheel and imitate what I was
feeling.
I pulled the dust covers off and found a loose nut on the driver side, I chalked it up to previous mechanic incompetence and tightened it down to
about 150 ft.lbs.
After another thousand miles (and normal temps) I checked the nut and it was loose again. I knew something was up by then. I crossed my fingers,
tightened it again, and drove 750 miles to the Elkhart GMCMI rally. When Dave Lenzi saw me rock the tire, he said I'd never make it home. I pulled it
off at the campground, with an audience. But a friendly audience with lots of experience and advice.
Dave put together an impromptu class for us to watch him do his magic. When he got the hub off, we found my race was shattered into about half a dozen
pieces. I was just tightening the slack in my fractured race.
Dave put me back together. I saved the bearing race for memories, made the Vintage RVing magazine when Kim Weeks took a photo of me working on my
coach, Dad and I made it home without a hitch.
All this for $40 in annual dues. Man, I am so thankful I bought a GMC, and I am so grateful for GMCMI.

-Ty
--
Ty Hardiman, Norman, OK / Member FMCA-GMCMI-GMC Classics / August 1977 Kingsley TZE167V102390 / 26' / 403 / 3.55 / 16" Wheels / Quadrajet / HEI /
Previous Owners: Basil LeBlanc, Dan Ramker / Original Owner: William Strahm, Loveland, CO
 
Two options. 1. The PO forgot the washer and tightening the bolt properly, in which case the bearings might of survived depending how long it's been
run that way. 2. The nut was properly installed and something has come unhung and chewed out some space and the washer. Pull it off and look. Be
prepared to have the knuckle rebuilt.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
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