First Post - Wiring 78 Royals Neutral Ground short trips GFI

Scott,

As J.R. and I both mentioned in earlier posts, there should not be a ground/neutral connection when you are plugged into shore power. It is not a safe
condition (which is why the GFI outlet trips.) It's your coach and your call, but it should not be hard to diagnosis or fix the problem so that is is
not an issue.

I'm fixing mine to bring my coach up to current electrical standards, and so I can plug into any outlet that give me enough juice with out having any
problems.

cheers,

Aaron

> Aaron,
> We have similar models.
> And mine does the same thing with the GFI plugs. It trips them.
>
> The easiest solution for me is to not plug into a GFI plug. It has not been a inconvenience yet.
> Good luck, and welcome to the forum.
> Scott

--
78 Royale, rear dinette
 
Aaron,
Then in that case I would be very interested in your findings.
I haven't been able to find a power transfer switch/box anywhere.

I am getting ready to pull out the onan and put in a Honda in a month or so. Maybe then I can explore further.
Good luck and thanks,
Scott
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi.
Houston, Texas
 
There has to be a simple explaination for this. I can't believe that they could sell these new that way as by NEMA electrical code the bonding is to
be back at the source only (building or gennerator) otherwise the ground shares current carrying dutys with the neutral. Perhaps N is touching Chasis
at one of the duplexes. Stick a meter w beep on the shore cord G to N and start pulling N branch wires in the panel. Keep looking and use logic. Could
be water heater IF it is electric as this is common on GMC upfits.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
Aaron,
I just now noticed you have 30 amp service. On mine I have 50 amp service.
Does that change the Philosophy? I don't know....
Would the protections be different between the two?

Scott
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi.
Houston, Texas
 
Aaron, Scott and John L.
I have 50A Transfer in the Stretch coach and I put a 30A in the first coach we had, I also have a 30A switch for the Avion.

The best place to get them is right here:

http://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/automatic-transfer-switches/

They are also available on Ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1311.R1.TR3.TRC2.A0.H1.XRV+automatic.TRS0&_nkw=rv+automatic+transfer+switch&_sacat=0
or
http://tinyurl.com/yd37vcb2

JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States Charter Member
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMCMI
78 GMC Buskirk 30’ Stretch
1975 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan

>
> Aaron,
> I just now noticed you have 30 amp service. On mine I have 50 amp service.
> Does that change the Philosophy? I don't know....
> Would the protections be different between the two?
>
> Scott
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi.
> Houston, Texas
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
"there should not be a ground/neutral connection when you are plugged into shore power."

How can there not be a connection when they are tied together in the shore power circuit breaker panel?
--
Terry Kelpien

ASE Master Technician

73 Glacier 260

Smithfield, Va.
 
Terry,

That statement is correct and as far as you are concerned is from the end of your power cord to all the wiring inside your coach is considered a secondary and that is to protect you from electrical issues and that assumes that your coach wiring is correct also. If the park/campground has been wired correctly then it should also have the ground and neutrals separated as the pedestal are also considered a secondary circuit also and the main CB panel is considered the primary. A 30A circuit consists of a 3 wire layout. The colors in your power cord should be Black (Hot), White (Neutral) and Green which is the ground. The 50A circuit consist of a 4 wire layout. The colors in the power cord are Black (hot 1), Red (hot 2), White (neutral) and Green which is the ground. Which provides 2 110 vac circuits. Our coaches do not have any devices that are 220 VAC powered, we just have each side of the box on separate 110VAC feeds.

These are good examples:

http://www.myrv.us/Imgs/PDF/30-amp%20Service.pdf

http://www.janeandjohn.org/docs/50ampRVoutletInstallation.pdf

http://www.rvtechmag.com/electrical/chapter6.php

We have stayed at a number of campgrounds, both county parks and fairgrounds that have been electrical nightmares and frankly unsafe.

Word of warning! A lot of older RV parks and campgrounds have been serviced by non electrical certified persons and you get what you pay for. Just talking electrical does not make you a electrician and a simple mistake can be terminal.

JR Wright

>
> "there should not be a ground/neutral connection when you are plugged into shore power."
>
> How can there not be a connection when they are tied together in the shore power circuit breaker panel?
> --
> Terry Kelpien
>
> ASE Master Technician
>
> 73 Glacier 260
>
> Smithfield, Va.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
I'm going to reply back to multiple posts and people here.

JR,

Thanks for the links and the previous posts. I was considering a Progressive Dynamics switch until Ken got me started thinking about building my own -
not sure which I will go with yet.

Scott,

30A or 50A should not matter - for my coach it is the ground/connection neutral connection in the generator wiring (which is fine) but not when
*combined* with the lack of a switched neutral wire coming from the generator, and the way my 2nd (rear) AC is wired into both shore power and
generator power. As you can see from the various replies, there are other places where the ground and neutral wires can be connected.

Since you have a 78 Royale - is there a breaker box for main power from the generator (mine has a 40amp breaker?) if so, is that breaker a single pole
(black/hot wire only) or double pole (white/neutral wire is also wired into the breaker?) That's the issue for me. If that 40 amp breaker was double
pole, I could turn that off and hook into shore power with tripping a GFI plug. The coachman owners manual does *not* show or mention the generator
breaker panel as far as I can tell, but it is in the electrical coachman electrical drawings from bdub's website (I posted that link in my first
post.)

btw, I haven't really worked much with RV electrical, so I've been learning - even having two 120vac sources was initially confusing to me. I just had
to get methodicall about it (as everyone says to do) and diagram out all the boxes and connections to wrap my head around this. Thank god I'm not
aware of any problems in my 12 volt wiring....

John L
I have found my problem, but for what it is worth, my Royale didn't come with an electric hot water heater, just gas and engine heat. I feel like
that was probably the norm on Royales and Birchavens (both uplifted by Coachman) but I'm not 100% sure.
With regards to why the wiring is the way it is, I suspect what J.R. "powerjon" probably knows - that's just the way they wired them in the 70's, and
that was up to code at that time.

John S.

I wanted to double check, before I replied back - there is no evidence of a transfer in my switch, nor is there any place where it seems like one was
tied in. I've got my rear dinette mostly removed so I have access to trace all the wiring. Thanks for the 2 cents though, I would've been delighted to
find one!

Terry,

What I meant is - "there should not be a ground/neutral connection in your coach when you are plugged into shore power." Yes, there should be a
ground/neutral connection at the primary breaker box associated with the shore power.

Okay, I think that catches me up.

cheers,

--
78 Royale, rear dinette
 
Aaron,
I am one like Ken with designing and building a lot of my own circuits and parts which I do and did when I had a real job. Especially helpful when there is nothing available already built. Building your own can be very satisfying and sometimes less expensive. With a 30A Transfer switch available with a price range of $60 to $90 with some more on Ebay and 50A units slightly more, IMHO it is not cost effective building your own with getting all the correct parts, wiring, terminal and box to put it in and testing.

Do this search on Ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1311.R1.TR3.TRC2.A0.H1.XRV+automatic.TRS0&_nkw=rv+automatic+transfer+switch&_sacat=0

JR

>
> I'm going to reply back to multiple posts and people here.
>
> JR,
>
> Thanks for the links and the previous posts. I was considering a Progressive Dynamics switch until Ken got me started thinking about building my own -
> not sure which I will go with yet.
>
>
> Scott,
>
> 30A or 50A should not matter - for my coach it is the ground/connection neutral connection in the generator wiring (which is fine) but not when
> *combined* with the lack of a switched neutral wire coming from the generator, and the way my 2nd (rear) AC is wired into both shore power and
> generator power. As you can see from the various replies, there are other places where the ground and neutral wires can be connected.
>
> Since you have a 78 Royale - is there a breaker box for main power from the generator (mine has a 40amp breaker?) if so, is that breaker a single pole
> (black/hot wire only) or double pole (white/neutral wire is also wired into the breaker?) That's the issue for me. If that 40 amp breaker was double
> pole, I could turn that off and hook into shore power with tripping a GFI plug. The coachman owners manual does *not* show or mention the generator
> breaker panel as far as I can tell, but it is in the electrical coachman electrical drawings from bdub's website (I posted that link in my first
> post.)
>
> btw, I haven't really worked much with RV electrical, so I've been learning - even having two 120vac sources was initially confusing to me. I just had
> to get methodicall about it (as everyone says to do) and diagram out all the boxes and connections to wrap my head around this. Thank god I'm not
> aware of any problems in my 12 volt wiring....
>
>
>
> John L
> I have found my problem, but for what it is worth, my Royale didn't come with an electric hot water heater, just gas and engine heat. I feel like
> that was probably the norm on Royales and Birchavens (both uplifted by Coachman) but I'm not 100% sure.
> With regards to why the wiring is the way it is, I suspect what J.R. "powerjon" probably knows - that's just the way they wired them in the 70's, and
> that was up to code at that time.
>
>
> John S.
>
> I wanted to double check, before I replied back - there is no evidence of a transfer in my switch, nor is there any place where it seems like one was
> tied in. I've got my rear dinette mostly removed so I have access to trace all the wiring. Thanks for the 2 cents though, I would've been delighted to
> find one!
>
>
>
> Terry,
>
> What I meant is - "there should not be a ground/neutral connection in your coach when you are plugged into shore power." Yes, there should be a
> ground/neutral connection at the primary breaker box associated with the shore power.
>
>
> Okay, I think that catches me up.
>
> cheers,
>
>
>
> --
> 78 Royale, rear dinette
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Terry,

When getting power from the campground, a bonded neutral on the coach can
provide an alternative path to ground if there is a fault in the campground
plug. That alternative ground will include the coach body, and one could be
electrocuted standing outside an leaning on the coach.

If a GFCI outlet is tripping, that means current is leaking from hot to
ground instead of going through neutral. That is evidence of a fault right
there. All the current should go back to the campground's bonded ground,
not find a leak somewhere else.

Rick "not ignoring the signs" Denney

> "there should not be a ground/neutral connection when you are plugged into
> shore power."
>
> How can there not be a connection when they are tied together in the shore
> power circuit breaker panel?
> --
> Terry Kelpien
>
> ASE Master Technician
>
> 73 Glacier 260
>
> Smithfield, Va.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
 
GFI trips if there is an alternate path to the ground beside the neutral
wire. It does not have to be "hard", just some stray leakage current will
do it. It can be open DC but "shorted*" AC. If it is shorted DC it is
easier to trace. Put a DC power supply between ground and neutral and
measure the current. Some times it is better to burn up the wire between
the supply and the short just to see where the problem is. If you have
current flowing you can measure the voltage drop in the wire involved. If a
section of wire has a voltage drop it is in the path and if it does not
then it is not in the path. At the end of the path, you should find the
ground fault. For testing purposes, the system should be able to have 300
volts DC between the 2 grounds with much less than 0.001 amps of DC
current.

* shorted in this case is on the order > 0.001 amps AC at 120 volts.
Anyone disagree? If you do this be very careful.
I have used this kind of method to find leakage currents as low as
0.000,000,1 amps in circuit boards.

> Terry,
>
> When getting power from the campground, a bonded neutral on the coach can
> provide an alternative path to ground if there is a fault in the campground
> plug. That alternative ground will include the coach body, and one could be
> electrocuted standing outside an leaning on the coach.
>
> If a GFCI outlet is tripping, that means current is leaking from hot to
> ground instead of going through neutral. That is evidence of a fault right
> there. All the current should go back to the campground's bonded ground,
> not find a leak somewhere else.
>
> Rick "not ignoring the signs" Denney
>

>
> > "there should not be a ground/neutral connection when you are plugged
> into
> > shore power."
> >
> > How can there not be a connection when they are tied together in the
> shore
> > power circuit breaker panel?
> > --
> > Terry Kelpien
> >
> > ASE Master Technician
> >
> > 73 Glacier 260
> >
> > Smithfield, Va.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> --
> Rick Denney
> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--

*John Phillips*
 
I haven't opened it up to inspect, but my '76 Royale AC panel has a generator disconnect circuit breaker and a shore power disconnect circuit breaker
with a mechanical interlock that prevents both breakers being closed at the same time. These CBs are 'double-wide', which I'm pretty sure means that
they are two-pole. The panelboard wiring diagram provided by Coachman shows the white wire from each source entering its associated circuit breaker
with a separate 'pigtail' leaving each breaker and going to a bus bar labeled 'negative lugs'.

I'm pretty sure that that means the shore power neutral is disconnected when running the generator, and that both legs of the generator are
disconnected when running on shore power. It also means that when running on generator, the grounded leg of the generator is connected to the
'negative lug' bus which is also where the white wire of any receptacles are connected.

The only place that a neutral should be connected to ground for a facility is at the power 'source', defined as the place where the serving Utility
provides power to the facility (RV park) or at the secondary of 'separately derived source' - which is usually a transformer located on site. So if
the pedestal has a transformer, that's where there the neutral is connected to ground and where there needs to be a ground rod. Otherwise, the
neutral-ground connection serving the pedestal is at some upstream transformer or at the park's electrical service entrance.

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
J.R.,

I'm going to take your advice. I googled "build your own Automatic transfer switch." Looking over the first several hits pretty well cinched it - I
don't really have the time to figure that all out right now, to many other things to do on the coach.

Spent this weekend repacking rear wheel bearings (which were fine) putting on a ragusa transmission pan so I can add a transmission temp. gauge,
pulling the final drive cover off to confirm my final drive (3.07 no stamp on the housing) and a few other things as well. So yeah, I'm going with a
switch that's already made.

darn it...

Bill,

I have that exact same breaker panel, and if that was all I had, it would be fine but I also have another breaker panel before that, the one shown in
this diagram on the 2nd page.

http://www.bdub.net/wirediagrams/1977_Coachmen_26RB_Electrical_and_Plumbing_Drawings.pdf

But that's not all - if you want to understand the wiring in my coach, you either have to go through and look at everything there or look at my
drawing of the components and wiring.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/7081/Aaron_Coachmen_1978_Original_House_Wiring.pdf

I'll update with my final layout. Hopefully in the near future.

Cheers,

Aaron
--
78 Royale, rear dinette
 
Aaron,
I think the simplest might be to

Remove or abandon the 2nd AC breaker from the "Generator Main Box"
Leave the mechanical interlock in the "Main Breaker Box" (MBB)
Change the generator 2 pole breaker in the MBB to 40A
Add a 20A CB for the 2nd AC to the MBB or next to it.

Certainly not as elegant as an automatic transfer switch, but a whole lot easier. One advantage is that when on shore power you have a little more
protection from plugging into a shore power receptacle served by a faulty circuit breaker. When a CB trips often, the overcurrent bimetal strip in the
CB can fail due to overheating and not open the CB.
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
Are you sure there the generator is the only fault path?
Is the neutral wire switched?

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 11:36 AM, Bill Van Vlack
wrote:

> Aaron,
> I think the simplest might be to
>
>
> Remove or abandon the 2nd AC breaker from the "Generator Main Box"
> Leave the mechanical interlock in the "Main Breaker Box" (MBB)
> Change the generator 2 pole breaker in the MBB to 40A
> Add a 20A CB for the 2nd AC to the MBB or next to it.
>
> Certainly not as elegant as an automatic transfer switch, but a whole lot
> easier. One advantage is that when on shore power you have a little more
> protection from plugging into a shore power receptacle served by a faulty
> circuit breaker. When a CB trips often, the overcurrent bimetal strip in the
> CB can fail due to overheating and not open the CB.
> --
> Bill Van Vlack
> '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath,
> Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o
> mid
> November 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--

*John Phillips*
 
On the Royale, the shore power and generator circuit breakers are two pole (one of which is neutral). A mechanical interlock prevents both circuit
breakers from being switched 'ON' at the same time.
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.
 
On my 78 center kitchen Royale there is no transfer switch, automatic or manual you just plug the cable into the onan or into the shore power.
--
Cary, NC

1978 Center Kitchen Royale.
 
That's the same way my once 76 Palm Beach is. The very epitome of Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) theory! I had bought a transfer switch, but Rob Mueller had problems with the same unit in his "Double Trouble" coach. He was able to repair his switch, but bought the one I had to have a spare. I do not plan to buy another changeover switch.

I also shortened the on-board power cable to just reach (with some length to spare) the Onan's output receptacle. I converted the remainder of the original power cable to be a simple extension cable. I bought a Camco 30 foot, 50 Amp extension cable and I'm good for up to about 50 feet from a campground power pedestal.

If someone out there has a 30 Amp system, I have genuine Onan manual changeover switch that absolutely prevents cross connecting the genset to the commercial power line. I removed it from my boat that had a single 30 Amp feed when I built a relay system to do the changeover when I installed a second 30 Amp feed circuit. Asking $125 plus shipping. New cost for the switch is probably about $500.

D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com

________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Pete Smith
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 21:59
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] First Post - Wiring 78 Royals Neutral Ground short trips GFI

On my 78 center kitchen Royale there is no transfer switch, automatic or manual you just plug the cable into the onan or into the shore power.
--
Cary, NC

1978 Center Kitchen Royale.
 
I finished updating my electrical just before going to Elkhart.

At Elkhart I ended up sharing a space and I could only plug into the 20 amp GFI protected outlet for shore power because I didn't have a big enough
extension cord to go to the 30 amp plug. The GFI didn't trip, and I was able to run the PD9260 and one AC and that's all I needed for my Royale. :)

I pretty much went with my original proposal - the only difference is that I left the rear AC on a breaker with no way to plug it into it's own
outlet. I just have to remember to only turn on one AC when I'm plugged into shore power for now, but I can turn on either the front or the back. I
went in with a 50amp transfer switch, so if I want to upgrade 50amp shore power sometime, I will just change my power chord and a couple of breakers.

Took out about 45lbs worth of stuff, replaced it with 15.

Consolidated my all my electrical into one location.

Aaron

--
78 Royale, rear dinette
 
And once again, mine is exactly like "thesmith's" either plug the 50 amp cord into the APU female receptacle or shore power.
I have no idea if this was stock or a PO upgrade. But with a 3 prong 110 AC adapter and cord it still blows GFI's.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi.
Houston, Texas