Fact or fiction you decide in Coatings for exhaust headers

[thomas g. warner]

>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:39:30
>To: gmcmotorhome
>From: "Thomas G. Warner"
>Subject: RE: GMC: Fact or fiction you decide in Coatings for exhaust=
headers
>
>Lets look at the facts paul. I stand by my previous information, there
appears to be no comparison between Jethot, HPC, and Swain Tech when it
comes to keeping heat transfer into the engine compartment to a minimum.
Isn't that our problem hot engine compartments? HPC says that they are "more
concerned about improving the life of your exhaust components", while jethot
says "will lower under-hood temperatures by 30=B0F or more", note that is
30degrees not percent. Swain tech says "It reduces radient heat by more than
50%. (It is NOT Hi-Temp paint like other products.)"
>=20
>
>I am not interested in how the headers look (who is going to see them
except road kill) and me when I am under the hood. HPC and JETHOT are
virtually the same technology and almost 20 years old at that. Jethot and
HPC are principally trying to stop corrosion and heat fatigue and thermal
transfer is only a byproduct, and appears to be minor from their web sites.
That is the reason that so many street rodders use them...looks and last a
long time.
>
>Go to the various web sites that I have sited and compare their claims. I
am sold on the process and want to see the factory. How about coating our
intake manifolds, pistons and final drive gears(low friction materials)=
also?
>
>HPC:http://www.hpcoatings.com/hpcauto.html
>
>HPC has been providing its services to more professional racing teams world
wide than all other coating companies combined! We have proven our worth at
Daytona, Indy and Lemans. Performance gains are in the 1-3% range, however
these gains are proportional to the engine output. For example a 1200
horsepower Pro Stock engine will see a 10-13 horsepower gain where as a
street engine will only see 1-5 horsepower. Underhood temperatures will drop
from 20-35% depending on the vehicle and airflow surrounding the engine. We
are more concerned with improving the life of your exhaust components. As
you can see HPC offers a multitude of coatings. Unlike other companies that
offer only one or two coatings, HPC offers over 40!!!=20
>
>
>BENEFITS OF HPC EXHAUST SYSTEM COATINGS:
>Superior corrosion protection (self-sacrificial quality will not allow
corrosion to develop even when damaged).=20
>Lifetime guarantee against subsurface rust and corrosion.=20
>Performance gains (increases gas velocity, improves laminar air flow, and
reduces ambient underhood temperature).=20
>Rapid cool-down.=20
>Weldability.=20
>Color availability.=20
>Will not blue or stain.=20
>Elimination of thermal fatigue/oxidation.=20
>Excellent abrasion resistance.=20
>Protection at temperatures of -375 degrees to +1,300 degrees Fahrenheit.=20
>Can be applied to both new and used components.=20
> =

>JETHOT: http://206.243.32.11/jethot/pg3.html
>
>Famous for its double coatings inside and out, JET-HOT won't discolor,
crack, chip, peel, fade or burn off up to 1300=B0F making it ideal for parts
that see a lot of abuse. The latest addition to our line of coatings, JET
HOT 2000TM, even protects metals at temperatures exceeding 2000=B0F. In
accelerated salt-spray tests, JET-HOT outlasts chrome by a factor of 14 to 1
and puts other ceramics on the market to shame. In Fact, new exaust
components coated inside and out receive a lifetime warranty against
rust-through. Of course the special process that assures complete coating on
the inside of the part goes a long way toward making it last. And if the
parts you have are used, JET-HOT even goes the extra mile to strip any old
paint or rust off completely down to bare metal at no extra charge! The
hottest in High-Temp Coatings! In addition to providing great looks and
lasting durability, JET-HOT also helps you get more performance from your
vehicle! The insulating quality of the ceramics is the key. When parts are
coated inside and out, JET-HOTwill lower under-hood temperatures by 30=B0F=
or
more. The coating does this by holding the exaust heat inside and will
actually increase the flow enough to add three to seven horsepower to an
average motor.
>
>SWAIN TECHNOLOGIES: http://swaintech.com/header.html
>
>Swain Tech Header Coating is different than All the other header coatings.
It is applied as SOLID Ceramic Layers, not hi-temp paint. It is a true .015
thick Thermal Barrier.
> Other header coatings are .002 thick and meant for appearance and
corrosion resistance. Swain Coating is Functional not Cosmetic.=20
>
>White Lightning Coating
>Swain Tech Thermal Barrier Coating, TBC-EX -- TBC-EX is a 3-layer
.015-.020" thick permanent coating. The coating is pearl white in color and
extremely durable. It reduces radient heat by more than 50%. (It is NOT
Hi-Temp paint like other products.)
>
> =
=



>>Thomas:
>>
>>You claim that "... the performance guys seem to buying Swain coatings and
>>the show car and street crowd seem to be buying Jet-Hot".
>>
>>Not the picture from what I see below, in a previous e-mail message. =
Looks
>>to me like there is a probably a sharing of the wealth, and I haven't seen
>>Jet-Hot's "propaganda/claims yet. So how does one justify pitching one
>>coater over the other at this point based on product and application??????
>>
>>By the way, I'd still like to learn your numbers for heat reduction for=
the
>>other two coater's you mentioned compared to Swain's claim????
>>
>> Paul Bartz
>>From: Chuck Will [mailto:willa]
>>Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 1:14 PM
>>To: gmcmotorhome
>>Subject: GMC: [Fwd: Jet Hot vs. HPC]
>>
>>Cory at HPC so here is his response. Thanks Chuck

>>Chuck:
>>Not a problem. I get asked this very often. Jet-Hot is the same type
>>coating as HPC. HPC's owner was an engineer at an aerospace company that
>>applied these coatings on parts of jet engines. In 1981 he saw an
>>application for these coatings in motorsports (his first love, he was a=
drag
>>racer prior to entering the Air Force and flying F-105's in Vietnam) an a
>>way to get out of the government end of things and be his own boss.
>>In 1982 HPC was opened in Oklahoma City. Since then we have opened
>>facilities in CT, UT, AZ, two in Australia and one in New Zealand.
>>Jet-Hot's owner left the same aerospace firm in 1991 and opened
>>MCCI/Jet-Hot. Since then they have opened facilities in PA, MS and AZ and
>>Australia. Is there a pattern here?
>>Like I said, the ceramic-metallic coatings are similar. We manufacture=
our
>>own coatings in our Utah facility. So the formula can be different.
>>Independent testing has shown that on the average our coating runs 25%
>>thicker than theirs and has longer corrosion protection. The thermal
>>properties are the same. Now our HiPerCoat Extreme(tm) that you and I=
spoke
>>of is 5 times the insulation but very expensive. Jet-Hot has nothing like
>>this. Your friend has been reading too many of their ads (That's why I am
>>with HPC. I am a marketing guy trying to turn that around. Jet-Hot has
>>done very good in "buying the market" in the last six years).
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach

 

[thomas g. warner]

My understanding is that the Swain coating is dipped so that all parts are
covered. The other coatings are indeed paints and they are applied with a
paint gun. I have Jethots video that they sent me and watched the process.
The others are excellent for their intended purpose, reduction of corrosion
and as you noted that is what you are looking for, but are a metallic
ceramic coating. Engines that run on methanol or alcohol can be very
corrosive and hence why the majority of the drag racers were using them.
They are looking for longevity of the headers which jethot and HPC are
excellent at.

Swain is very matter of fact about its coatings and merely points out the
differences between its coatings and the others. On his web site he also
notes that they cooperate closely with the other companies. =20

As a racer you probably can see the difference immediately if you have
visited their site. They not only coat the exhaust headers, but also do
pistons, valves, heads, blocks, wrist pins, intake manifolds, engine blocks,
brake pads, calipers, in fact anything on the car that has heat problems.
They in fact have two different types of ceramic coatings, one that
insulates and one that increases the heat transfer of the part. The main
difference between this company and the rest seems to be the large variety
of coatings that it produces.

Never thought about the bolt holes and will find out. Good point

>Tom,
>
>How is the Swain coating applied? Is it sprayed on or is it a powder coat
>type thing where an electrical charge is used? An electric charge system
>or dipping system would definitely be much better than the spraying used by
>Jet Hot and HPC. There are some spots spraying cannot reach that would be
>coated with those other systems. =20
>
>Calling the other products "high temp paints" is a little strong I think.
>Find me a paint that can stand up like any of those coatings. They are all
>ceramic coatings. Swain's MIGHT be better than the others, but Jet Hot is
>much better than any paint we have ever used. I'm pretty sure the Jet Hot
>may be thicker than .002". A friend sent out a set of headers and couldn't
>get his header bolts through the holes when they came back because the
>coating had made them that much smaller. I don't think header bolt hole
>tolerance is anywhere close to .004". If the Swain coating is that much
>thicker, you may want to enlarge your bolt holes a little before having
>them coated so they are back to the right size after the coating is
>applied. You don't want to have to drill out the holes after they are
>nicely coated like our friend had to. Swain should be able to tell you if
>this would be necessary or not and how much to enlarge the holes. =20
>
>For what it is worth, I can tell you that Jet Hot (probably because of
>their mega-advertising/contingency stickers) is by far the most popular
>header coating among sportsman drag racers. I don't personally know anyone
>that has used anything but Jet Hot. We didn't worry about radiant heat on
>our race cars at all. We just wanted to find something that didn't need to
>be reapplied every year or two, would look good, and would keep the pipes
>from rusting away. =20
>
>Zak
>
>PS - I haven't seen anything but claims about the performance of any of the
>coatings. Do any of the companies have any facts/studies to back up their
>claims? Since underhood temp is affected by a lot more than just the
>headers, it seems like any claim would be pretty difficult to
>reproduce/prove. It may just be me, but I am always suspicious of
>companies that slam other companies' products. If the statements are made
>in response to specific questions, that may be ok. If they answer the
>phone and say xxxx brand is terrible and our product is great, then I am
>forced to wonder. Does anyone that has talked to the 3 companies have any
>insight on this aspect of the companies?
>
>
>
>
>

>>>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:39:30
>>>To: gmcmotorhome
>>>From: "Thomas G. Warner"
>>>Subject: RE: GMC: Fact or fiction you decide in Coatings for exhaust=
headers
>>>
>>>Lets look at the facts paul. I stand by my previous information, there
>>appears to be no comparison between Jethot, HPC, and Swain Tech when it
>>comes to keeping heat transfer into the engine compartment to a minimum.
>>Isn't that our problem hot engine compartments? HPC says that they are=
"more
>>concerned about improving the life of your exhaust components", while=
jethot
>>says "will lower under-hood temperatures by 30=B0F or more", note that is
>>30degrees not percent. Swain tech says "It reduces radient heat by more=
than
>>50%. (It is NOT Hi-Temp paint like other products.)"
>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach

 

[zachary zehnacker]

Tom,

If the Swain coating is dipped, then it should offer much better overall
corrosion protection as well. You might want to find out for sure if they
are dipped because that could be an important difference separating them
from the others.

Have they said if their product will reduce corrosion or not? I would
assume that any coating should stop corrosion, but they seem to be
downplaying corrosion. Our race car headers have no corrosion at all where
they are coated but the spots the spray could not get to have started to
rust. We only run leaded gasoline in our race cars (112 octane).

IMHO corrosion resistance is just as/more important to the GMC than heat
reduction. The headers and free flow mufflers should already cool down the
engine compartment some I would think. No one wants a set of headers that
isn't going to last more than a couple of years. Remember that these
coatings are applied without the protective nickel coating that comes
standard on the headers. That means that the coating is providing all of
the corrosion resistance. Headers will rust out very quickly if not
protected somehow.

I assume the Swain product doesn't look too bad either. Is it just that it
is a flat black or some other colored coating instead of the silver shiny
coating like the others offer?

If it is dipped and offers good corrosion resistance, then the Swain
coating really sounds like a good idea. How is the cost when compared to
the others?

Zak

PS - Just because a product is sprayed does not make it paint in my book.
Plasti-Dip rubberized coating comes in a dip version and a spray can
version. Is the one that comes in the spray can a paint and the one that
comes in the dip can a coating? They both seem like the same product to me.

>My understanding is that the Swain coating is dipped so that all parts are
>covered. The other coatings are indeed paints and they are applied with a
>paint gun. I have Jethots video that they sent me and watched the process.
>The others are excellent for their intended purpose, reduction of corrosion
>and as you noted that is what you are looking for, but are a metallic
>ceramic coating. Engines that run on methanol or alcohol can be very
>corrosive and hence why the majority of the drag racers were using them.
>They are looking for longevity of the headers which jethot and HPC are
>excellent at.
>
>Swain is very matter of fact about its coatings and merely points out the
>differences between its coatings and the others. On his web site he also
>notes that they cooperate closely with the other companies.
>
> As a racer you probably can see the difference immediately if you have
>visited their site. They not only coat the exhaust headers, but also do
>pistons, valves, heads, blocks, wrist pins, intake manifolds, engine blocks,
>brake pads, calipers, in fact anything on the car that has heat problems.
>They in fact have two different types of ceramic coatings, one that
>insulates and one that increases the heat transfer of the part. The main
>difference between this company and the rest seems to be the large variety
>of coatings that it produces.
>
>Never thought about the bolt holes and will find out. Good point

 

[thomas g. warner]

Zak their header coating is called white lightning and is a beautiful
pearlescent color, but not applied for its cosmetic qualities. In the case
of the Thorley headers or others I have seen the welds are not perfect. all
of them that I have seen on the GMCs that were not coated have started to rust.

You might think about looking at their other products for pistons, brakes etc

>Tom,
>
>If the Swain coating is dipped, then it should offer much better overall
>corrosion protection as well. You might want to find out for sure if they
>are dipped because that could be an important difference separating them
>from the others.
>
>Have they said if their product will reduce corrosion or not? I would
>assume that any coating should stop corrosion, but they seem to be
>downplaying corrosion. Our race car headers have no corrosion at all where
>they are coated but the spots the spray could not get to have started to
>rust. We only run leaded gasoline in our race cars (112 octane).
>
>IMHO corrosion resistance is just as/more important to the GMC than heat
>reduction. The headers and free flow mufflers should already cool down the
>engine compartment some I would think. No one wants a set of headers that
>isn't going to last more than a couple of years. Remember that these
>coatings are applied without the protective nickel coating that comes
>standard on the headers. That means that the coating is providing all of
>the corrosion resistance. Headers will rust out very quickly if not
>protected somehow.
>
>I assume the Swain product doesn't look too bad either. Is it just that it
>is a flat black or some other colored coating instead of the silver shiny
>coating like the others offer?
>
>If it is dipped and offers good corrosion resistance, then the Swain
>coating really sounds like a good idea. How is the cost when compared to
>the others?
>
>Zak
>
>PS - Just because a product is sprayed does not make it paint in my book.
>Plasti-Dip rubberized coating comes in a dip version and a spray can
>version. Is the one that comes in the spray can a paint and the one that
>comes in the dip can a coating? They both seem like the same product to me.
>
>
>

>>My understanding is that the Swain coating is dipped so that all parts are
>>covered. The other coatings are indeed paints and they are applied with a
>>paint gun. I have Jethots video that they sent me and watched the process.
>>The others are excellent for their intended purpose, reduction of corrosion
>>and as you noted that is what you are looking for, but are a metallic
>>ceramic coating. Engines that run on methanol or alcohol can be very
>>corrosive and hence why the majority of the drag racers were using them.
>>They are looking for longevity of the headers which jethot and HPC are
>>excellent at.
>>
>>Swain is very matter of fact about its coatings and merely points out the
>>differences between its coatings and the others. On his web site he also
>>notes that they cooperate closely with the other companies.
>>
>> As a racer you probably can see the difference immediately if you have
>>visited their site. They not only coat the exhaust headers, but also do
>>pistons, valves, heads, blocks, wrist pins, intake manifolds, engine blocks,
>>brake pads, calipers, in fact anything on the car that has heat problems.
>>They in fact have two different types of ceramic coatings, one that
>>insulates and one that increases the heat transfer of the part. The main
>>difference between this company and the rest seems to be the large variety
>>of coatings that it produces.
>>
>>Never thought about the bolt holes and will find out. Good point
>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach

 

[zachary zehnacker]

Tom,

We do run coated bearings now in the race motors. After having the
distributor pop out (ie no oil pressure), the coated main bearings were
perfect while the non-coated rod bearings were hurt. They do seem to work
well. The main reason to run coated pistons (usually only the top is
coated) is to avoid hot spots so you can run more timing/compression
without detonation. A current trick for aluminum heads seems to be to coat
the chambers in the heads so that the heads can be a little more forgiving
if detonation does occur. You gain some of the advantages of both types of
heads that way. Our race motors are far from being on the edge, so we are
not really worried about performance enhancements like the coated
heads/pistons/etc. Many of the coatings of this type are seem to be meant
for motors that come apart often. Ours only come apart every two years. We
would be a little afraid of a piece chipping off and causing damage. I
don't know if that concern is valid or not, but since we don't have a
problem now, we don't see a need to change. The coated bearings, however,
improve the durability, and we do like that.

We wanted to get some stuff coated for the GMC engine during the rebuild,
but the Olds stuff is hard enough to find. We would have had to have them
specially coated and the turnaround would have taken too long/been too
expensive. The Chevy stuff can be obtained already coated right from the
bearing companies. That way, the coating thickness is also properly
accounted for. Had we had bearings specially coated, the thickness would
have been much more difficult to account for.

For a road course car or a tight circle track, the brake coatings might be
good idea. Our race car brakes only get used about once every 1/2 hour or
so, so heat is not really a problem for them. We have never experienced
brake fade in the GMC even when the trailer brakes weren't really working
that well. I really think that many of the problems with the rear drums
are due to failing parts rather than brake fade/drums vs. disks/etc. We
changed the front disks to the bigger calipers with the performance
friction pads. We changed the rear shoes to the asbestos ones. We changed
the front bogies to the larger wheel cylinders. None of these improvements
were really very noticeable. The biggest improvement by far in GMC braking
we have ever found is changing our vacuum line for the brake booster. This
made a HUGE difference. This problem could also be perceived as brake fade
by some which IMO could lead to some of the stories about brake fade. Our
brakes would work fine the first time, but then would not work so well
after that if not given a decent amount of time. It turned out that the
vacuum line had collapsed enough internally that the vacuum took a long
time to build up in the booster. After driving for a while, the vacuum
level would be fine and the booster would work well. Once the vacuum in
the booster was depleted on the first pedal push, it wouldn't work anymore
until given enough time to recuperate. This made stop and go driving
difficult, but it was not because of brake fade. Now that the line has
been replaced, everything is fine.

Zak

>You might think about looking at their other products for pistons, brakes etc

 

[thomas g. warner]

No mention of it in my warranty. the warranty is voided if they are wrapped
with insulation material.
I am not aware that Thorley ceramic coats their headers.

>
>Doesn't Thorley void the warranty on the hedders if they are ceramic coated
>other than by Thorley?
>
>2 cents
>
>Scott Adohen
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach

 

[thomas g. warner]

Zak according to Swains technical literature and my talk to Don Swain last
week they have the ceramic technology perfected to the point where it no
longer chips off internal engine parts. i understand that they will also do
the bearings etc to your specs, ie; tell them the diameter you want and they
will make the necessary adjustments in the bearings and coatings to allow
for it.Thing that interested me is that they do a complete engine, pistons,
valves etc for less than $400.

>Tom,
>
>We do run coated bearings now in the race motors. After having the
>distributor pop out (ie no oil pressure), the coated main bearings were
>perfect while the non-coated rod bearings were hurt. They do seem to work
>well. The main reason to run coated pistons (usually only the top is
>coated) is to avoid hot spots so you can run more timing/compression
>without detonation. A current trick for aluminum heads seems to be to coat
>the chambers in the heads so that the heads can be a little more forgiving
>if detonation does occur. You gain some of the advantages of both types of
>heads that way. Our race motors are far from being on the edge, so we are
>not really worried about performance enhancements like the coated
>heads/pistons/etc. Many of the coatings of this type are seem to be meant
>for motors that come apart often. Ours only come apart every two years. We
>would be a little afraid of a piece chipping off and causing damage. I
>don't know if that concern is valid or not, but since we don't have a
>problem now, we don't see a need to change. The coated bearings, however,
>improve the durability, and we do like that.
>
>We wanted to get some stuff coated for the GMC engine during the rebuild,
>but the Olds stuff is hard enough to find. We would have had to have them
>specially coated and the turnaround would have taken too long/been too
>expensive. The Chevy stuff can be obtained already coated right from the
>bearing companies. That way, the coating thickness is also properly
>accounted for. Had we had bearings specially coated, the thickness would
>have been much more difficult to account for.
>
>For a road course car or a tight circle track, the brake coatings might be
>good idea. Our race car brakes only get used about once every 1/2 hour or
>so, so heat is not really a problem for them. We have never experienced
>brake fade in the GMC even when the trailer brakes weren't really working
>that well. I really think that many of the problems with the rear drums
>are due to failing parts rather than brake fade/drums vs. disks/etc. We
>changed the front disks to the bigger calipers with the performance
>friction pads. We changed the rear shoes to the asbestos ones. We changed
>the front bogies to the larger wheel cylinders. None of these improvements
>were really very noticeable. The biggest improvement by far in GMC braking
>we have ever found is changing our vacuum line for the brake booster. This
>made a HUGE difference. This problem could also be perceived as brake fade
>by some which IMO could lead to some of the stories about brake fade. Our
>brakes would work fine the first time, but then would not work so well
>after that if not given a decent amount of time. It turned out that the
>vacuum line had collapsed enough internally that the vacuum took a long
>time to build up in the booster. After driving for a while, the vacuum
>level would be fine and the booster would work well. Once the vacuum in
>the booster was depleted on the first pedal push, it wouldn't work anymore
>until given enough time to recuperate. This made stop and go driving
>difficult, but it was not because of brake fade. Now that the line has
>been replaced, everything is fine.
>
>Zak
>
>
>

>>You might think about looking at their other products for pistons, brakes etc
>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach