Engine replacement

[woody]

Update. The MotorWorks reman 455 cratered this week with less than 10,000 miles on it and less than 3 years of service. #5 main bearing and/or 5 & 7
rod bearing(s) have failed, and possibly the crank thrust bearing, causing continuous knock...the 500 mile oil was full of ferrous and bearing
material in the filter media. I've pampered this engine with oil changes every 3000 miles with zinc additive. My advise to any prospective engine
buyer is to steer clear of any budget, cookie cutter engine builder such as this. You get what you pay for....and I got 9,500 miles for my
$2600....not a good bargain. Getting a 455 core rebuilt at the Caddy 500 specialist shop in ABQ. More to follow. Woody.
--
1975 Avion 26' Transmode
TZE365V100846 Helena, Montana
EBL TBI, AL in man, in-tank pumps, AL rad, rear discs, Alcoas, Dakota Digital dash, all LED int and ext roof markers, Generac, Hubler torsion bars,
Quadrabags, Manny tranny, 3.70, Zip Dee.

 

[robert mueller]

Woody,

I would highly recommend you remove your radiator and have the engine oil
cooler and transmission cooler cleaned by a shop that has one of these:

http://www.hotflusher.com/automotive/index.cfm

The engine failure scenario you describe matches a theory of why low mileage
rebuilds fail.

When an engine fails heaps of crap winds up in the engine oil cooler. It
restricts oil flow and increases the pressure on the bypass valve (opens at
5.3 - 6.3 psid) and allows unfiltered oil back into the engine.

I was going to do some testing to support that theory last year but it just
didn't happen for various reasons.

If you can't find a Hotflusher I'd suggest you take the radiator oil cooler
out of the loop and replace it with an oil cooler with a fan and thermostat
like this:

Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/gmna24a

Full URL:

https://www.amazon.com/70297-Cooler-Cooling-Automatic-Transmission/dp/B003TP
HHBI/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1485650732&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywo
rds=B%26M+70297+Hi-Tek+SuperCooler+Oil+Cooler

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Woody
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 10:01 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement

Update. The MotorWorks reman 455 cratered this week with less than 10,000
miles on it and less than 3 years of service. #5 main bearing and/or 5 & 7
rod bearing(s) have failed, and possibly the crank thrust bearing, causing
continuous knock...the 500 mile oil was full of ferrous and bearing
material in the filter media. I've pampered this engine with oil changes
every 3000 miles with zinc additive. My advise to any prospective engine
buyer is to steer clear of any budget, cookie cutter engine builder such as
this. You get what you pay for....and I got 9,500 miles for my
$2600....not a good bargain. Getting a 455 core rebuilt at the Caddy 500
specialist shop in ABQ. More to follow. Woody.
--
1975 Avion 26' Transmode
TZE365V100846 Helena, Montana
EBL TBI, AL in man, in-tank pumps, AL rad, rear discs, Alcoas, Dakota
Digital dash, all LED int and ext roof markers, Generac, Hubler torsion
bars,
Quadrabags, Manny tranny, 3.70, Zip Dee.

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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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[Jim Hupy]

A wise person once told me " You can get 20 years experience once, or, you
can get 1 years experience 20 times, the choice is yours." How many times
are members of this great GMC community going to experience catastrophic
engine failure caused by crap from the previously failed engine lodged in
the lines and oil cooler. A rattle can full of carb cleaner will not clean
it out. Neither will an ordinary air compressor "OSHA APPROVED" air nozzle.
You are better off removing the stock oil cooler and running without one. I
have no experience with the machine that Rob talks about, but S and J will
not warranty any of their engines unless new hoses and brand new previously
unused coolers are fitted. That is what I do when I install new engines. On
Jerry Work's Clasco coach that I installed an S & J engine in, I even
replaced the radiator with an aluminum one. Ask Jerry what he thinks.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> Woody,
>
> I would highly recommend you remove your radiator and have the engine oil
> cooler and transmission cooler cleaned by a shop that has one of these:
>
> http://www.hotflusher.com/automotive/index.cfm
>
> The engine failure scenario you describe matches a theory of why low
> mileage
> rebuilds fail.
>
> When an engine fails heaps of crap winds up in the engine oil cooler. It
> restricts oil flow and increases the pressure on the bypass valve (opens at
> 5.3 - 6.3 psid) and allows unfiltered oil back into the engine.
>
> I was going to do some testing to support that theory last year but it just
> didn't happen for various reasons.
>
> If you can't find a Hotflusher I'd suggest you take the radiator oil cooler
> out of the loop and replace it with an oil cooler with a fan and thermostat
> like this:
>
> Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/gmna24a
>
> Full URL:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/70297-Cooler-Cooling-Automatic-
> Transmission/dp/B003TP
> HHBI/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=
> 1485650732&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywo
> rds=B%26M+70297+Hi-Tek+SuperCooler+Oil+Cooler
>
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> USAussie - Downunder
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Woody
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 10:01 AM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement
>
> Update. The MotorWorks reman 455 cratered this week with less than 10,000
> miles on it and less than 3 years of service. #5 main bearing and/or 5 & 7
> rod bearing(s) have failed, and possibly the crank thrust bearing, causing
> continuous knock...the 500 mile oil was full of ferrous and bearing
> material in the filter media. I've pampered this engine with oil changes
> every 3000 miles with zinc additive. My advise to any prospective engine
> buyer is to steer clear of any budget, cookie cutter engine builder such as
> this. You get what you pay for....and I got 9,500 miles for my
> $2600....not a good bargain. Getting a 455 core rebuilt at the Caddy 500
> specialist shop in ABQ. More to follow. Woody.
> --
> 1975 Avion 26' Transmode
> TZE365V100846 Helena, Montana
> EBL TBI, AL in man, in-tank pumps, AL rad, rear discs, Alcoas, Dakota
> Digital dash, all LED int and ext roof markers, Generac, Hubler torsion
> bars,
> Quadrabags, Manny tranny, 3.70, Zip Dee.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[george beckman]

> I will take this seriously after you have 20k to 30k miles on your engine. How can you even remotely make a conclusion after 1700 miles??

It is America, Bob. Karen can make the conclusions she wants. As a woman doing 95% of her own work plus writing excellent installation guides for us
all, she has earned her stripes.

There is a pretty good reason I rarely read this forum.
--
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George

 

[robert mueller]

Gentlemen,

If one studies the oil flow path through the Olds 455 and 403 engine they
will find that the last thing the oil passes through is the filter.

As long as one installs the correct filter for these engines (no bypass in
the filter) metal from the failed engine cannot get into the new engine
because it must flow through the filter.

Review the following album:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6398-455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path.html

Think about this; if crap in the oil cooler and lines took out Woody's
engine why did it take 3 years and near 10,000 miles?

In my opinion his engine was taken out because the pressure drop through the
oil cooler caused the bypass valve to remain partially open and some
unfiltered oil was constantly being fed back into the engine.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

 

[jerry work]

A wise person once told me " You can get 20 years experience once, or, you
can get 1 years experience 20 times, the choice is yours." How many times
are members of this great GMC community going to experience catastrophic
engine failure caused by crap from the previously failed engine lodged in
the lines and oil cooler. A rattle can full of carb cleaner will not clean
it out. Neither will an ordinary air compressor "OSHA APPROVED" air nozzle.
You are better off removing the stock oil cooler and running without one. I
have no experience with the machine that Rob talks about, but S and J will
not warranty any of their engines unless new hoses and brand new previously
unused coolers are fitted. That is what I do when I install new engines. On
Jerry Work's Clasco coach that I installed an S & J engine in, I even
replaced the radiator with an aluminum one. Ask Jerry what he thinks.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
....................

 

[johnny]

A look at Bounds' current blog ought to be enough to steer you away from Jasper rebuilds.

--johnny
--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"The road goes on forever, and the party never ends" --Robert Earl Keen

 

[woody]

Rob, what makes you think the oil bypass is suspect? My airplane's Lycoming IO-540 has an oil bypass and it activates regularly and that doesn't
destroy the bearings. My 455 was making metal and that wasn't caused by dirty oil...I change it religiously (10-40 Delo with zinc added) and there
was no contamination in my cooling system from a previous failure. It was simply a 12mo/12,000 mile warranty budget engine that didn't last. There
is no way to determine what failed until engine is torn down next week. Will keep the forum updated. BTW, I have that exact B&M cooler already on
order, along with replacement Slaten oil lines.

I wasn't trying to place blame with my update. Just trying to get Jerry Work's builder score card started....so:

I got 3.4 miles per rebuild dollar on the MotorWorks 455 reman. That sucks any way you slice it and I did the R&R labor!! The current build underway
should go 80,000 plus and that'd put it in the 13-14 miles per dollar range....acceptable. You get what you pay for and I got diddly squat in
Spokane. Everyone's free to do what ever they can afford, but quality and details count with these 455's. Dick Patterson didn't have any built up
455's or I would've gone with him. The shop I'm using in ABQ will follow Mondello's build guide, dyno the engine for cam break in and data sheets,
and it should be around $6k incl. labor with a lifetime warranty. Will keep you posted. Woody.

--
1975 Avion 26' Transmode
TZE365V100846 Helena, Montana
EBL TBI, AL in man, in-tank pumps, AL rad, rear discs, Alcoas, Dakota Digital dash, all LED int and ext roof markers, Generac, Hubler torsion bars,
Quadrabags, Manny tranny, 3.70, Zip Dee.

 

[john r. lebetski]

Until Rob or one of his peers can scientifically define what is going on with the filtering and bypass systems it's all just armchair guessing. My
Cinnabar 455 is going on maybe 7 years. No ticks/ no knocks. I had my radiator recored way back when I first got the coach. The PO installed rebuilt
engine (some big box unit) died a little later due to sludge in pan (rod knock). I didn't do anything more with the radiator and don't remember being
charged for add'l rad service with new engine. I use Rotella T6 and Wix
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First

 

[scott nutter1]

I fully agree. To me it is just cheep insurance.
I am going through a Patterson rebuild. This should be a once in a lifetime engine change for me.
So new radiator and new external oil cooler and new everything else that touches oil or water.
But I'm anal.........
--
Scott Nutter
1978 455 Royale Center Kitchen, Quad bags.
Houston, Texas

 

[Jim Hupy]

Well, as the commercial says, "You can pay me now, or pay me later to do it
the way you should have done it the first time!" A thimble full of blast
media, or machine grit from the overhauling processes, will absolutely
destroy a new rebuild in a couple of minutes. You cannot be too clean when
doing engine swaps. Jerry Work sewed up custom fitted cloth slip covers for
the interior of the class coach to protect the plush pleather interior.
Guess he thought I might have dirty hands or something. I went through a
box of nitrile gloves on that coach. Everything was stripped and painted
with very durable hammerite engine enamels. It still looks better than
factory. If you have to ask yourself "I wonder if that part is clean enough
?" you already have your answer.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> I fully agree. To me it is just cheep insurance.
> I am going through a Patterson rebuild. This should be a once in a
> lifetime engine change for me.
> So new radiator and new external oil cooler and new everything else that
> touches oil or water.
> But I'm anal.........
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 455 Royale Center Kitchen, Quad bags.
> Houston, Texas
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[robert mueller]

Woody,

In a nutshell I based my conclusions after spending countless hours studying
the oil flow path through the 455 and 403.

After doing so I formulated a test plan and spent $500 for a flowmeter, $250
for a PSID gage and another hundred bucks or so for lines and fittings. I
made a custom oil filter adapter that would allow me to force the bypass
valve in the oil filter adapter closed on a 455 with headers; which is what
I was going run the tests on. Unfortunately I was unable the test on that
engine so I shipped the test gear to Manny's. I stopped by his home on the
way back to Sydney only to discover my custom oil filter adapter would only
work with headers and his test set up has stock manifolds.

Unfortunately I have too much on my plate to spend a lot of time justifying
my theory, however, I will be attending the GMCMI Convention and I would be
more than happy to walk anyone who is interested through my theory step by
step.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Woody
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 5:35 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement

Rob, what makes you think the oil bypass is suspect? My airplane's Lycoming
IO-540 has an oil bypass and it activates regularly and that doesn't
destroy the bearings. My 455 was making metal and that wasn't caused by
dirty oil...I change it religiously (10-40 Delo with zinc added) and there
was no contamination in my cooling system from a previous failure. It was
simply a 12mo/12,000 mile warranty budget engine that didn't last. There
is no way to determine what failed until engine is torn down next week.
Will keep the forum updated. BTW, I have that exact B&M cooler already on
order, along with replacement Slaten oil lines.

I wasn't trying to place blame with my update. Just trying to get Jerry
Work's builder score card started....so:

I got 3.4 miles per rebuild dollar on the MotorWorks 455 reman. That sucks
any way you slice it and I did the R&R labor!! The current build underway
should go 80,000 plus and that'd put it in the 13-14 miles per dollar
range....acceptable. You get what you pay for and I got diddly squat in
Spokane. Everyone's free to do what ever they can afford, but quality and
details count with these 455's. Dick Patterson didn't have any built up
455's or I would've gone with him. The shop I'm using in ABQ will follow
Mondello's build guide, dyno the engine for cam break in and data sheets,
and it should be around $6k incl. labor with a lifetime warranty. Will keep
you posted. Woody.

--
1975 Avion 26' Transmode
TZE365V100846 Helena, Montana
EBL TBI, AL in man, in-tank pumps, AL rad, rear discs, Alcoas, Dakota
Digital dash, all LED int and ext roof markers, Generac, Hubler torsion
bars,
Quadrabags, Manny tranny, 3.70, Zip Dee.

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org