Electrical gremlins, charging set up, and questions

[RF_Burns]

Link is missing from Dolph's post, but I believe this is the site he is referring to:

http://www.brighthubengineering.com/power-generation-distribution/123906-comparison-of-lithium-ion-to-lithium-iron-battery

Unfortunately the Author mixed up his "Ion and Iron" terms a couple of times. He acknowledges that in the comments section of the article, but did not
correct the article.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

 

[a.]

> OK, I think I understand the question now.
> The item you are looking at we call a boost solenoid or boost relay.
>
> First is the small terminals. One goes to the thin wire going to the boost switch on the dash and one goes to ground. The polarity is not
> important, so just wire one to the boost switch on the dash and the other one to engine battery ground. The aluminum plate where the relay/solenoid
> is mounted is connected to engine battery ground and that is where GM wired their's.
>
> On the big terminals, which side you use there is also unimportant as long as you get the correct together wires on each side. (The three red on
> the right side of the diagram on one side, and the other two on the left side of the diagram on the other terminal.
>
> One side is engine battery circuits and the other side is house battery circuits. They can not be mixed from side to side. I forget at the
> moment which side Gm used for which and my coach is not here for me to look at. It will not hurt which side you use for them as long as wires for
> the two sides are not mixed.
>
> Clear as mud. right?
I will add a few details that might make it a little clearer.

One large post is the house battery, one large post is the chassis battery, one small post is the power for the plunger (goes to the boost switch) and
the other small post is the ground for the plunger.

Your schematic is different than mine, so I can only describe mine (which has one more wire on the house battery terminal).

The left side is the chassis battery side. One #4 red wire goes to the "battery pickup junction box" (where the power comes from the alternator
through the isolator, through a #10 red wire to the battery pickup junction box, and charges the battery). One #4 red wire goes to the starter. One #4
red wire goes to the chassis battery.

The right side is the house battery side. One #10 red wire goes through a 50A fuse to the house battery bus bar. One #10 red wire goes to the isolator
(to charge the house battery) and the #4 red wire goes to the house battery.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."

 

[david horowitz]

Thanks all for confirming that the interior mounted / exterior vented enclosed battery box in my coach is safe to use!
--
David del Rio - 75 Avion - Raymond, CA

 

[petergarry]

There has been some discussion on the reluctance to use lithium ion batteries for the “house” electricity.

Some 3 years ago I installed 2, 100 amp hour Lithium ion batteries in my coach. Removed the onan, installed 4, 80 watt PV panels on the roof do do the charging, and paired with these with a 1500 watt inverter/charger to keep all in balance.
All the lighting has been changed to LEDs and with the calculations I have figured I can run:
A 1,000 watt Microwave (short bursts), a vented propane catalytic heater, an all electric frig (under counter size), nightlly CPAP use, computer, printer, portable frig/freezer, as well as all the LED lights. So far I am using both the PV panels and shore power (the inverter keeps the two doing their jobs as necessary when not plugged into shore power.
The only drawback is the absence of a rooftop AC unit. Still working on a solution to that. (being in Alberta and avoiding the hot south helps)
I am very happy with the set-up and so far there have been no issues. The Lithium Ion batteries have proven to work flawlessly and are tucked under the rear bed. No venting is required.

Peter Garry
73- 23 ft
Calgary Alberta

 

[peer oliver schmidt]

Peter,

do you have more details about your batteries? Make/model maybe?

--
Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA

'76a Eleganza II, VA

 

[adam metzger]

> > OK, I think I understand the question now.
> > The item you are looking at we call a boost solenoid or boost relay.
> >
> > First is the small terminals. One goes to the thin wire going to the boost switch on the dash and one goes to ground. The polarity is not
> > important, so just wire one to the boost switch on the dash and the other one to engine battery ground. The aluminum plate where the
> > relay/solenoid is mounted is connected to engine battery ground and that is where GM wired their's.
> >
> > On the big terminals, which side you use there is also unimportant as long as you get the correct together wires on each side. (The three
> > red on the right side of the diagram on one side, and the other two on the left side of the diagram on the other terminal.
> >
> > One side is engine battery circuits and the other side is house battery circuits. They can not be mixed from side to side. I forget at the
> > moment which side Gm used for which and my coach is not here for me to look at. It will not hurt which side you use for them as long as wires for
> > the two sides are not mixed.
> >
> > Clear as mud. right?
> I will add a few details that might make it a little clearer.
>
> One large post is the house battery, one large post is the chassis battery, one small post is the power for the plunger (goes to the boost switch)
> and the other small post is the ground for the plunger.
>
> Your schematic is different than mine, so I can only describe mine (which has one more wire on the house battery terminal).
>
> The left side is the chassis battery side. One #4 red wire goes to the "battery pickup junction box" (where the power comes from the alternator
> through the isolator, through a #10 red wire to the battery pickup junction box, and charges the battery). One #4 red wire goes to the starter. One
> #4 red wire goes to the chassis battery.
>
> The right side is the house battery side. One #10 red wire goes through a 50A fuse to the house battery bus bar. One #10 red wire goes to the
> isolator (to charge the house battery) and the #4 red wire goes to the house battery.


Thank you both for explaining. I have the wiring diagrams, and can follow them. I actually also wrote down directions, almost like driving
directions, to hel pme make sure I got it all, and hopefully help understand the flow better in the future, when I'm broken down on the side of the
road with a wife, 4 kids, a dog, and a Dad that doesn't think things like that are funny until were about 100 miles away from them.

My question was much more general in nature. I guess what I was asking was about polarity, and knowing what wires to put where. You cleared it up by
telling me that it didn't matter, as long as they were all on the same side. (ie, chassis together, house together)

--
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX

 

[Ken B]

You have it correct.

Mr. Hamilton's post was more detailed than my 2 AM posting from memory. It filled in a lot of the blanks that I left.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

 

[robert mueller]

Peter,

Inquiring minds would like to know the manufacturer of the batteries, where you got them, their dimensions, weight, how much they
were and any additional details you might deem relevant.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Peter Garry
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 8:16 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Electrical gremlins, charging set up, and questions

There has been some discussion on the reluctance to use lithium ion batteries for the "house" electricity.

Some 3 years ago I installed 2, 100 amp hour Lithium ion batteries in my coach. Removed the onan, installed 4, 80 watt PV panels on
the roof do do the charging, and paired with these with a 1500 watt inverter/charger to keep all in balance.
All the lighting has been changed to LEDs and with the calculations I have figured I can run:
A 1,000 watt Microwave (short bursts), a vented propane catalytic heater, an all electric frig (under counter size), nightlly CPAP
use, computer, printer, portable frig/freezer, as well as all the LED lights. So far I am using both the PV panels and shore power
(the inverter keeps the two doing their jobs as necessary when not plugged into shore power.
The only drawback is the absence of a rooftop AC unit. Still working on a solution to that. (being in Alberta and avoiding the hot
south helps)
I am very happy with the set-up and so far there have been no issues. The Lithium Ion batteries have proven to work flawlessly and
are tucked under the rear bed. No venting is required.

Peter Garry
73- 23 ft
Calgary Alberta

 

[adam metzger]

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h252/adammetzger/RIPballofwonder.jpg

I'd like to take a moment to remember the Ball of Wonder. 8o


Did some re-wiring this morning with my cup of coffee, and I think I've pulled about 30 ft. of wire total.
re-ran the alternator wire, with new waterproof terminals, and happy to say she cranked right up.

Now to re run the isolator, and then get busy with the fuel system.

--
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX

 

[adam metzger]

> http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h252/adammetzger/RIPballofwonder.jpg
>
> I'd like to take a moment to remember the Ball of Wonder. 8o
>
>
> Did some re-wiring this morning with my cup of coffee, and I think I've pulled about 30 ft. of wire total.
> re-ran the alternator wire, with new waterproof terminals, and happy to say she cranked right up.
>
> Now to re run the isolator, and then get busy with the fuel system.

Can someone help me understand why there would be a wire from the positive side of the chassis battery to BOTH large terminals on the post solenoid?
If one side is chassis, and the other side is house, why would there be wires from the positive battery post to each side? My positive has two
terminal wires on POS.
--
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX

 

[a.]

> Can someone help me understand why there would be a wire from the positive side of the chassis battery to BOTH large terminals on the post
> solenoid? If one side is chassis, and the other side is house, why would there be wires from the positive battery post to each side? My positive
> has two terminal wires on POS.
The boost solenoid is wired wrong. There should be one #4 wire from the positive post of the house battery to one large lug of the boost solenoid.
There should be one #4 wire from the chassis battery to the other large lug of the boost solenoid. When you need to get more juice on the chassis
battery side to start the engine, you engage the boost switch on the dashboard that energizes the solenoid, pulling the plunger into the contacts that
connect the positive of the house battery directly to the positive of the chassis battery. Some people wait a bit for the house battery to charge the
chassis battery and then hit the starter, others hit the starter immediately.

The boost solenoid acts like a jumper cable between the house battery and the chassis battery when engaged.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."

 

[adam metzger]

I understand how it should be. I'm curious about why it is how it is now? Does that mean it's in a loop? Boosting off the same battery on boost
mode?

Thanks for the patience with my questions!
--
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX

 

[Matt Colie]

> I understand how it should be. I'm curious about why it is how it is now? Does that mean it's in a loop? Boosting off the same battery on boost
> mode?
>
> Thanks for the patience with my questions!

Adam,

You and your coach have already earned a special place here. (That is not a bad thing.) That is because: A - You found us in time, B - You are
paying attention.
We will have patience with your questions, and with the pictures you have shown I know I am expecting many more.

Why and how your PO did what he did we can only guess. All we can tell you for a fact is that it probably worked just fine forty-odd years ago. The
original designs were good and there have been some technological improvements that many have included. But both here and on the boats that I have
worked on over the years, there are often charges the value of which is beyond any understanding.

I do ask that you be patient with the answers you get here. If you do get a response that you do not understand (very possible) you come back with as
best a question you can frame. Please realize that some here are very well educated and have decades of experience and may have to shift down a few
gears to make an explanation that works for you. The may sound involved, but also remember that any answer is archived and someone else may benefit
from it.

Isn't this an amazing group, family, cult, asylum???

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
Now with both true Keyless and remote entry
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

 

[a.]

> I understand how it should be. I'm curious about why it is how it is now? Does that mean it's in a loop? Boosting off the same battery on boost
> mode?
>
> Thanks for the patience with my questions!
You would have to ask the PO why it is how it is now.

If the house battery is wired to the house side, and the chassis battery is wired to both sides, those batteries are wired in a very cockeyed parallel
(and the boost switch/solenoid serve no purpose). You need to fix it before a malfunction in the house side drains the batteries overnight, leaving
you stranded.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."

 

[adam metzger]

Can I get a visual confirmation from someone?

My coach has a red wire coming out of the loom near the isolator that is factoey marked DIODE.

Is this the wire that runs to the alternator from the isolator?

My PO had another wire run to the alt, and this one is not connected.

--
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX

 

[roy keen minden]

If there are 2 wires coming from the large terminal on the alternator to the center terminal of the diode I would leave them. The original factory
wire is a little small in size here especially for those that switched to the 100 amp alternator. The extra wire I added to mine was #6.it did help in
the short term when the batteries were low on charge.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

 

[john r. lebetski]

The "2 wires" thing is something to be carefull with. You can disconnect both ends of what you think is the main alternator wire and beep it for
continuity using an extension wire on one of the meter leads. You need to identify the "sense" wire. I don't have diagram up but I think other end
goes to one of the sockets on the 2 prong connector.back of alternator This wire must go to the engine battery side of the isolator to read the .7V
drop of the isolator so the slternator can compensate correctly. Your best ref would be a same year coach with unmolested wiring to go off of if
anyone is near you.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First

 

[adam metzger]

My isolator is completely dis connected. I'm trying to wire back to spec. PO had a mess of wires,
One of which ran from alt. To battery junction. There is a red wire marked DIODE coming out of the loom near the isolator. If I can use this wire
instead of using a new one that I will have to also add another wire to the blower relay, I would prefer to use it.

Anyone with a 76 palm beach that wouldn't mind taking one more peek under their hood, i would appreciate it much.
--
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX

 

[Ken B]

I believe the red wire in the loom that you are seeing goes to the fuse panel INSIDE the coach. If this is the wire that you are describing, then the
end that you are looking at goes to a large terminal on the blower motor relay. From that same blower motor relay terminal there another 6" wire that
goes to the isolator. That wire to the isolator is a 16 ga. fusible link.

I hope I am describing the wire you are asking about.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

 

[Gene Fisher]

This might help
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6225/How_to_check-out1.pdf

> I believe the red wire in the loom that you are seeing goes to the fuse
> panel INSIDE the coach. If this is the wire that you are describing, then
> the
> end that you are looking at goes to a large terminal on the blower motor
> relay. From that same blower motor relay terminal there another 6" wire
> that
> goes to the isolator. That wire to the isolator is a 16 ga. fusible link.
>
> I hope I am describing the wire you are asking about.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
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