Electric Vehicles

[gmcnet1]

Hi all,

I had intended to politely take exception to James Hupy's comment on the Electric Fuel Pump thread where he said, "Sale of Electric Vehicles dropped
by 7% in 2019.
People that still can think for themselves, aren't buying them," but for some reason his post is only showing up in the email digest and not on the
forum. Anyhow, it's probably better to start a new thread. I can think for myself, so here goes:

Global auto sales were down from 94.4 million to 90.3 million. Despite that overall environment, EV sales and market share (the more important figure
if we're debating what people are buying) increased. Looking at the components that make up the global figure, EV sales and market share were down in
the US. However, both numbers were up in Europe, and although EV sales were down slightly in China, market share increased.

Overall, the multi-year trend is clear: EV investment and market share are growing. In addition, the combined annual growth rate (CAGR) of renewable
energy is forecast to be 8.5% between 2019 and 2027. Coal, meanwhile is in decline; its market share in the US has dropped from 52.8% in 1997 to 27.4%
in 2018.

Sources:
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/18/fossil-vehicle-sales-in-global-freefall-down-4-7-in-2019-electric-vehicle-sales-continue-to-grow/
https://qz.com/1762465/2019-was-the-year-electric-cars-grew-up/
https://www.marketwatch.com/press-release/renewable-energy-market-size-growth-2019-merger-share-trends-competitive-landscape-statistics-regional-and-global-industry-forecast-to-2027---01-jul-2019-2019-07-01
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_power_in_the_United_States
--
Christo Darsch
GMC Nor'easters
1977 Eleganza II - "The Komet"
3.50 Power Drive, Disc Brakes, Alcoas
Weymouth, MA

 

[dave silva]

While i am inclined to agree with you about electric vehicles. having been on this forum for a while (10 years) i would question the value of the
debate.

We can discuss the tangible things like power and battery weight but when it comes to global market forces the information is skewed by political
perspective and we do not discuss politics here.

I have learned a great from Mr. Hupy and Matt Collie and others. There is no value in engaging them on things about which they will not be persuaded
and do not contribute to moving my coach down the road.

--
Dave & Ellen Silva

1972 Revcon Olds 455, toro drive train. All Stock

 

[Jim Hupy]

You don't have to patronize me. You are right. This is NOT the place for
this discussion.
Sorry, I was only repeating the data that i read in my FINE UPSTANDING
GANNET local newspaper, the Statesman Journal. (Part of the USA TODAY
network). Their facts are ALWAYS verified as to be the truth. It was also
reported by ABC national news, and we know how factual their reporting is.
That's what I get for passing along tidbits taken out of context.
Zealots take up the cause, and you have a revolution before you know it.
(Grin)
Sorry if I offended anyone out there. I am a bit of a "chain yanker".
One of my faults, I suppose.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:59 AM dave silva via Gmclist <

> While i am inclined to agree with you about electric vehicles. having
> been on this forum for a while (10 years) i would question the value of the
> debate.
>
> We can discuss the tangible things like power and battery weight but when
> it comes to global market forces the information is skewed by political
> perspective and we do not discuss politics here.
>
> I have learned a great from Mr. Hupy and Matt Collie and others. There is
> no value in engaging them on things about which they will not be persuaded
> and do not contribute to moving my coach down the road.
>
>
> --
> Dave & Ellen Silva
>
> 1972 Revcon Olds 455, toro drive train. All Stock
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[gmcnet1]

> While i am inclined to agree with you about electric vehicles. having been on this forum for a while (10 years) i would question the value of
> the debate.
>
> We can discuss the tangible things like power and battery weight but when it comes to global market forces the information is skewed by political
> perspective and we do not discuss politics here.
>
> I have learned a great from Mr. Hupy and Matt Collie and others. There is no value in engaging them on things about which they will not be
> persuaded and do not contribute to moving my coach down the road.

Your points are well taken, especially the value of learning from folks who have a variety of viewpoints. I'm still very much a noob in the GMC Moho
world, learning like crazy, contributing where I can, and enjoying most all of it. I just felt it was important to challenge Mr. Hupy's conclusions as
they were based on narrow (US only) data. Peace.
--
Christo Darsch
GMC Nor'easters
1977 Eleganza II - "The Komet"
3.50 Power Drive, Disc Brakes, Alcoas
Weymouth, MA

 

[Matt Colie]

Christo,

I was glad to see the posted references, too many try to make a point with out any supporting facts. If anybody thinks that I have any opposition to
electric vehicles they have not been carefully listening to what I have said.

GMC relevant discussion:

What I personally think is a shame is the lack of small electrics that:
A - Can be towed 4-down (Why not, I do not know, but the same is true for most hybrids.)
B - Can link the regenerative braking on demand from the towing vehicle.
Now wouldn't be neat the get done with day's drive and have a fully charged towed?

End of GMC relevant part -

The big thing in recent years has been the proliferation of charging stations that have allowed Mary's cousin to drive their Tesla from Canada to
Miami in a reasonable time frame. They do still have to pay attention or charging locations. (When they come to visit us, they get the coach's 50amp
connection.)

Unfortunately, with the blow administered by the prior administration, we will never again have a new car and never able to afford the purchase of
same. So, until there is some miracle, I will only get to borrow them.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

 

[Larry Davick]

Our Tesla Model 3 is our second electric car. We leased a tiny Chevy Spark EV for 3 years for less than the cost of gasoline previously used by our Nissan Maxima. I’m convinced that cars like our Tesla are perfect primary cars for most of us. The dearth of charging stations is a red herring for most drivers, and frankly there is no “fuel” more ubiquitous than electricity!

It’s only a matter of time before somebody swaps out the fuel tanks for batteries and the engine for a motor on our coaches. It’s not for everyone, but then nothing is.

I wish our Tesla could be towed 4-down, but the upcoming Model Y would likely be better in rutted campground roads!

And for the record I think these kind of discussions are appropriate for this forum.

Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca

Sent from my iPad

>
> Christo,
>
> I was glad to see the posted references, too many try to make a point with out any supporting facts. If anybody thinks that I have any opposition to
> electric vehicles they have not been carefully listening to what I have said.
>
> GMC relevant discussion:
>
> What I personally think is a shame is the lack of small electrics that:
> A - Can be towed 4-down (Why not, I do not know, but the same is true for most hybrids.)
> B - Can link the regenerative braking on demand from the towing vehicle.
> Now wouldn't be neat the get done with day's drive and have a fully charged towed?
>
> End of GMC relevant part -
>
> The big thing in recent years has been the proliferation of charging stations that have allowed Mary's cousin to drive their Tesla from Canada to
> Miami in a reasonable time frame. They do still have to pay attention or charging locations. (When they come to visit us, they get the coach's 50amp
> connection.)
>
> Unfortunately, with the blow administered by the prior administration, we will never again have a new car and never able to afford the purchase of
> same. So, until there is some miracle, I will only get to borrow them.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[johnny]

In my opinion, the loss of some monetarybenefits cut into electric car sales. The'y'll recover.

Now a GMC question. Does there exist an electric motor suitable for mounting a pair on something the weight of my GMC? I'm thinking diesel electric
much like a locomotive. Once I yank the engine, transmission, final drive, and inner axles, I've a substantial opening in which to mount an
engine/generator. Run it at variable speed to meet the load, rectify the output, and drive the wheel motors with a variable frequency drive.The
little MV 3 liter ought to make sufficient power easily. No battery for the drive at all. For braking assist, put a couple of dissipators (BIG
resistors) on the roof.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

 

[Jim Hupy]

Picture this if you might. Eastbound on interstate 84 through the Columbia
Gorge in your EV the third week of January, 2020. You fully charge your EV
before you leave Portland, Oregon. As you proceed Eastbound through the
Columbia Gorge, along with several thousand cars, and 16 wheelers.
As you progress through the gorge, the outside temperature drops into
the 20's, and it starts to rain, coating the road surfaces with freezing
rain, which rapidly turns into snow. A 16 wheeler jackknifes blocking all 4
lanes of the freeway, trapping all the traffic, including you in your EV,
behind the crash. Within scant minutes, traffic is backed up several miles
in each direction. Mixed freezing rain and snow continue falling preventing
plows and de-icing and sanding vehicles from being deployed. There you sit
along with thousands of others in a snarl of vehicles. The road surface is
so slippery you can't even stand on it, especially if the gorge winds are
blowing. So there you sit, in your electric vehicle, and you run low on
battery charge running your cabin heat. Gonna be a long, long night binky.
Can't happen to you, right? It is an every winter occurence in the
gorge. Usually, several times. People die there.
No electrics for me, you are on your own to do what you see fit with your
money. It is America, after all.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 10:36 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <

> In my opinion, the loss of some monetarybenefits cut into electric car
> sales. The'y'll recover.
>
> Now a GMC question. Does there exist an electric motor suitable for
> mounting a pair on something the weight of my GMC? I'm thinking diesel
> electric
> much like a locomotive. Once I yank the engine, transmission, final
> drive, and inner axles, I've a substantial opening in which to mount an
> engine/generator. Run it at variable speed to meet the load, rectify the
> output, and drive the wheel motors with a variable frequency drive.The
> little MV 3 liter ought to make sufficient power easily. No battery for
> the drive at all. For braking assist, put a couple of dissipators (BIG
> resistors) on the roof.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[johnny]

Not looking for zero E. Don't want the weight of more batteries. Diesel electric would be a way towards diesel power without havint to hack up the
inside of the coach. If the infrastructure for hydrogen cells is ever built, replace the engine/generator with them.
We're seeing electric vehicle infrastructure beginning to emerge, the tax break seems to have had the desired effect - as stated above you can run a
Tesla from Canadato Florida now. As in increases, electrics will proliferate. When someone shows a competitive fuel cell, hydrogen infrastructure
will begin to appear and eventually proliferate. Should we attain controlled fusion, electricity will prevail.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

 

[Russell]

Matt,
With a flat towed EV, I like your idea of the regenerative braking on demand from the GMC for use in traffic and long downhill slopes, etc. What if
we took it a step further and were able to control power to the wheels of the EV - on demand, for inclines and such; so that the EV could "pull its
own weight".

Just a thought.

Russell
--
Russell Keith,
1978 E2 "Harry" 403 (still carbureted), Danny Dunn Tranny, Thorley, Stock Brakes w/Remote Vacuum Brake Booster, Quad Bags, Dakota Digital Dash, 6.5 kW
Onan, Dunedin, Florida

 

[Keith V]

EV's are fun and cool but still very much a rich mans toy.
EV's used to be small and cheap, but no one wanted them.
Then Musk comes along and makes a high end EV and boom, EV's are cool. But cost efficient?
But If anyone thinks Musk is making EV's to save the planet I have a bridge to sell you.
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Russell Keith via Gmclist
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 8:47 AM
To: gmclist
Cc: Russell Keith
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Electric Vehicles

Matt,
With a flat towed EV, I like your idea of the regenerative braking on demand from the GMC for use in traffic and long downhill slopes, etc. What if
we took it a step further and were able to control power to the wheels of the EV - on demand, for inclines and such; so that the EV could "pull its
own weight".

Just a thought.

Russell
--
Russell Keith,
1978 E2 "Harry" 403 (still carbureted), Danny Dunn Tranny, Thorley, Stock Brakes w/Remote Vacuum Brake Booster, Quad Bags, Dakota Digital Dash, 6.5 kW
Onan, Dunedin, Florida

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[johnny]

Well, work from the position that people aren't going to change their habits. Who has a competitive fuel cell? Hydrogen and air, hydrogen and
oxygen, what with whom? Power output? fuel input for max output? Etc.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

 

[Jim Hupy]

Fuel cells have been around a long time. EFFICIENT fuel cells that compare
to ordinary everyday hydrocarbon engines in common use today? Not here, not
now. But, are they somewhere on the horizon? Not to my knowledge. But,
there are lots of brilliant minds out there. So, perhaps. But, perpetual
motion? Horsepower from water? Still a dream. More than likely we will nuke
ourselves off the planet before that happens.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 1:10 PM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <

> Well, work from the position that people aren't going to change their
> habits. Who has a competitive fuel cell? Hydrogen and air, hydrogen and
> oxygen, what with whom? Power output? fuel input for max output? Etc.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[john phillips]

The present problem with H2 is the round trip efficiency.
You start with electricity, convert water to H2, pressurize the H2,
transport it to an H2 station, pump it into an H2 car, covert it back to
electricity and in effect come out with about 10-20% of all the energy used
in the process.
The next biggest problem is that the equipment to run the above process is
costly to build, to maintain and to operate.
H2 attracts steel.
10,000 PSI pumps tanks and piping that will not leak H2 are all problems
that drive the price up.
A small H2 station costs are on the order of $2,000,000. Not sure how valid
that number is but I have seen it quoted in a few places.

H2 advantages quicker fueling and doubling energy storage does not add a
lot of weight but is quite bulky.

I would like to tow a BMW I3 with locking hubs like you used to see on the
front wheels of 4x4 pickups 50 years ago.
Getting a BEV to do regen breaking would be a real trick. Just getting it
out of regen mode when you want to tow it is a problem.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 1:10 PM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <

> Well, work from the position that people aren't going to change their
> habits. Who has a competitive fuel cell? Hydrogen and air, hydrogen and
> oxygen, what with whom? Power output? fuel input for max output? Etc.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--

*John Phillips*

 

[peer oliver schmidt]

> The present problem with H2 is the round trip efficiency.

Hydrogen powered cars are a viable option to utilize the renewable
energy that otherwise would go to waste. For example, wind turbines in
Germany are sometimes rotated out of the wind because the produced
electricity can not be used in the grid at that point in time.

Decentralized hydrogen generating plants could be fired by this surplus
energy.

Feasible right now? Maybe in areas with lots of wind and/or solar power
and little use for it.

imho, hydrogen is *the* solution for the future of mobility. 10 years
from now, we can come back to my statement, and will see whether or not
I was right

Until then: I'll fill up my GMC(s) with regular gas, and am happy that
the coaches still run after all these years.

--
Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
'76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
'73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany

 

[john phillips]

I walked over to the H2 development center the week it opened in West
Sacramento, CA and have been following it ever since.
I am a member of https://www.facebook.com/groups/ToyotaMiraiQA/
From what I can tell we are at least 10 years out from having a realistic
price for an H2 car. Toyota loses thousands on each car they sell.
I really wanted H2 to work. At this point, H2 is created from natural gas
and we would be a lot farther ahead just burning compressed natural gas
rather than stripping the H from the gas and all the other hoops they need
to jump through to get H2 into a car.
A natural gas fueling station can be installed in a home for about $10,000.
If you could get an H2 station installed in your home for twice that H2 may
have a chance.
Just the energy to compress the H2 in your home fueling station would drive
a tesla about 1/3 of the miles the H2 would power a Mirai.
You cannot count on overproduction to give you an energy rate that would
make H2 work. One of the biggest hurdles for green energy is reliability.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 1:46 PM Peer Oliver Schmidt via Gmclist <

> > The present problem with H2 is the round trip efficiency.
>
> Hydrogen powered cars are a viable option to utilize the renewable
> energy that otherwise would go to waste. For example, wind turbines in
> Germany are sometimes rotated out of the wind because the produced
> electricity can not be used in the grid at that point in time.
>
> Decentralized hydrogen generating plants could be fired by this surplus
> energy.
>
> Feasible right now? Maybe in areas with lots of wind and/or solar power
> and little use for it.
>
> imho, hydrogen is *the* solution for the future of mobility. 10 years
> from now, we can come back to my statement, and will see whether or not
> I was right
>
> Until then: I'll fill up my GMC(s) with regular gas, and am happy that
> the coaches still run after all these years.
>
> --
> Best regards
>
> Peer Oliver Schmidt
> PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
> '76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
> '73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--

*John Phillips*

 

[johnny]

85 KW comes out to what - 113 HP. Two of those would be sufficient. ow figure the hydrogen storage, motors and their controllers, and
infrastructure. How do you get hydrogen for them, and since you're using air instead of oxygen do you get anything but water at the exhaust?

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

 

[johnny]

Seems to me electrolysis using solar panels would be the way for an individual to generate it. Given the right capture setup, you could get oxygen
for your welding as well.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

 

[john phillips]

Our local H2 station sells H2 @ $16.44 a Kilogram.
I talked with a honda leaser who told me that he pays less than $400 a
month for a 3-year 60,000-mile lease.
That comes out to $14,400 total and it comes with a $15,000 credit on his
gas card and 21 days of free car rental so you can leave the H2 area.
You cannot buy the honda H2 car, you can only lease it if you live in
California and are close to an H2 station.
Only certain Honda dealers can lease the H2 car.
The fuel tanks can hold 5.46 kilograms at 10,000 PSI.
$90 will move a honda H2 car about 366 miles or about 25 cents a mile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MenV7j5enGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCoFWvpFYqs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euUiIjXA-zc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU-LDZ0HTGc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7JRIUPhSJE

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 7:36 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <

> 85 KW comes out to what - 113 HP. Two of those would be sufficient. ow
> figure the hydrogen storage, motors and their controllers, and
> infrastructure. How do you get hydrogen for them, and since you're using
> air instead of oxygen do you get anything but water at the exhaust?
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--

*John Phillips*

 

[john phillips]

Solar panels work for you if your utility rates are high and you have a
favorable net-metering contract.
It is hard to justify solar if you are paying $4,000 a kWDC no net metering
and your rates are low like less than 10 cents /kWh.
My best quote so far has been $3,250 /kWDC and my rate is $0.1001 for all
the time my panels would be active. The one thing in my favor is retail
net-metering.
1 kWDC where I am would generate about 4,000 kWh/ year or $400 a year.
Even if I paid cash and ignored the time value of money it would take about
8 years to break even.
Am I going to stay in this house that long or even live that long?

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 10:28 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <

> Seems to me electrolysis using solar panels would be the way for an
> individual to generate it. Given the right capture setup, you could get
> oxygen
> for your welding as well.
>
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--

*John Phillips*