Double roller or single roller timing chain?
- Thread starter 6cuda61
- Start date
> From my racing days we were always told when replacing a timing chain to go double roller.....having very little experience with RV motors, what
> is the recommended? Single or double roller?
We installed a double roller in 2006, it's still going..
--
Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Megasquirt III injection
Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
Manny reaction arm system
Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/
> is the recommended? Single or double roller?
We installed a double roller in 2006, it's still going..
--
Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Megasquirt III injection
Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
Manny reaction arm system
Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/
Thanks Wally....double it will be.
> > From my racing days we were always told when replacing a timing chain to go double roller.....having very little experience with RV motors,
> > what is the recommended? Single or double roller?
>
> We installed a double roller in 2006, it's still going..
--
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
> > From my racing days we were always told when replacing a timing chain to go double roller.....having very little experience with RV motors,
> > what is the recommended? Single or double roller?
>
> We installed a double roller in 2006, it's still going..
--
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
If there is a downside to a double roller setup other than it costs a bit more, I'm not aware of it - Gurus?
The upsides are less wear on chain and sprockets so longer life, and as I understand it a bit less load. Either way I've always used the double
roller.
--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
The upsides are less wear on chain and sprockets so longer life, and as I understand it a bit less load. Either way I've always used the double
roller.
--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
From years of engine lab work, there is little difference both in load transmission and life.
Roller chains are a little better at high speeds and loads, so that might be a consideration if you are running at high rpm and manifold pressures.
Rollers are more critical of lubrication than is a Hyvo/Morse chain set.
A very worn roller chain is a little more likely to skip a tooth as there is a lot less engagement.
Rollers are noisier, as if you could hear that over a 455.
Notice to any interested: The Olds roller sets that I have seen all have multiple key ways in the crank gear. Advancing the cam will make the torque
come up sooner but there is seldom any change in peak torque.
In any case, be sure to check the cam timing before you close the engine up.
Matt - the dyno land refugee
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Roller chains are a little better at high speeds and loads, so that might be a consideration if you are running at high rpm and manifold pressures.
Rollers are more critical of lubrication than is a Hyvo/Morse chain set.
A very worn roller chain is a little more likely to skip a tooth as there is a lot less engagement.
Rollers are noisier, as if you could hear that over a 455.
Notice to any interested: The Olds roller sets that I have seen all have multiple key ways in the crank gear. Advancing the cam will make the torque
come up sooner but there is seldom any change in peak torque.
In any case, be sure to check the cam timing before you close the engine up.
Matt - the dyno land refugee
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Johnny,
Since I have been doing GMC’ing since August of 1998 the subject of replacement cam chain set has be discussed a multitude of times with varying opinions.
Your original factory cam drive set had a nylon teeth on the camshaft end and that is what wore out. The standard expression was that if you had 140K+ miles one your motor you should consider replacing the less it fails and really do some damage.
As far back as when we bought our coach and before that the replacement cam gear/chain set was alway the Cloyes True Roller Time Chain Set. It has gone up in price over the last 10 years or so.
https://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/9-3113.010/10002/-1
The Lunati set up is some what less.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-93113
There are a number of clones available out on Ebay, but be VERY CARFUL!! You can probably find a double for the 330 thru 455 engine family at your local parts supplier.
J.R. Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMC Eastern States Charter Member
GMCMI
78 GMC Buskirk 29.5’ Stretch
75 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
>
> If there is a downside to a double roller setup other than it costs a bit more, I'm not aware of it - Gurus?
> The upsides are less wear on chain and sprockets so longer life, and as I understand it a bit less load. Either way I've always used the double
> roller.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Since I have been doing GMC’ing since August of 1998 the subject of replacement cam chain set has be discussed a multitude of times with varying opinions.
Your original factory cam drive set had a nylon teeth on the camshaft end and that is what wore out. The standard expression was that if you had 140K+ miles one your motor you should consider replacing the less it fails and really do some damage.
As far back as when we bought our coach and before that the replacement cam gear/chain set was alway the Cloyes True Roller Time Chain Set. It has gone up in price over the last 10 years or so.
https://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/9-3113.010/10002/-1
The Lunati set up is some what less.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-93113
There are a number of clones available out on Ebay, but be VERY CARFUL!! You can probably find a double for the 330 thru 455 engine family at your local parts supplier.
J.R. Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMC Eastern States Charter Member
GMCMI
78 GMC Buskirk 29.5’ Stretch
75 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
>
> If there is a downside to a double roller setup other than it costs a bit more, I'm not aware of it - Gurus?
> The upsides are less wear on chain and sprockets so longer life, and as I understand it a bit less load. Either way I've always used the double
> roller.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
If you do use a roller chain set, be sure that your chain has the
tru-roller feature. That is the rollers are free to rotate on their
individual axles, and are not riveted tightly to the side plates. That way,
the wear is distributed evenly to the entire chain, not just the part of
the roller that contacts the sprocket teeth. Key ways? What Matt said. When
using aftermarket parts, always degree your cams in.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020, 7:08 AM John Wright via Gmclist <
> Johnny,
>
> Since I have been doing GMC’ing since August of 1998 the subject of
> replacement cam chain set has be discussed a multitude of times with
> varying opinions.
>
> Your original factory cam drive set had a nylon teeth on the camshaft end
> and that is what wore out. The standard expression was that if you had
> 140K+ miles one your motor you should consider replacing the less it fails
> and really do some damage.
>
> As far back as when we bought our coach and before that the replacement
> cam gear/chain set was alway the Cloyes True Roller Time Chain Set. It has
> gone up in price over the last 10 years or so.
>
> https://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/9-3113.010/10002/-1
>
> The Lunati set up is some what less.
>
> https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-93113
>
> There are a number of clones available out on Ebay, but be VERY CARFUL!!
> You can probably find a double for the 330 thru 455 engine family at your
> local parts supplier.
>
> J.R. Wright
> GMC Great Laker MHC
> GMCGL Tech Editor
> GMC Eastern States Charter Member
> GMCMI
> 78 GMC Buskirk 29.5’ Stretch
> 75 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
> Michigan
>
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 2020, at 8:38 AM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
> >
> > If there is a downside to a double roller setup other than it costs a
> bit more, I'm not aware of it - Gurus?
> > The upsides are less wear on chain and sprockets so longer life, and as
> I understand it a bit less load. Either way I've always used the double
> > roller.
> >
> > --johnny
> > --
> > Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> > Braselton, Ga.
> > I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to
> me in hell
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
tru-roller feature. That is the rollers are free to rotate on their
individual axles, and are not riveted tightly to the side plates. That way,
the wear is distributed evenly to the entire chain, not just the part of
the roller that contacts the sprocket teeth. Key ways? What Matt said. When
using aftermarket parts, always degree your cams in.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020, 7:08 AM John Wright via Gmclist <
> Johnny,
>
> Since I have been doing GMC’ing since August of 1998 the subject of
> replacement cam chain set has be discussed a multitude of times with
> varying opinions.
>
> Your original factory cam drive set had a nylon teeth on the camshaft end
> and that is what wore out. The standard expression was that if you had
> 140K+ miles one your motor you should consider replacing the less it fails
> and really do some damage.
>
> As far back as when we bought our coach and before that the replacement
> cam gear/chain set was alway the Cloyes True Roller Time Chain Set. It has
> gone up in price over the last 10 years or so.
>
> https://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/9-3113.010/10002/-1
>
> The Lunati set up is some what less.
>
> https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-93113
>
> There are a number of clones available out on Ebay, but be VERY CARFUL!!
> You can probably find a double for the 330 thru 455 engine family at your
> local parts supplier.
>
> J.R. Wright
> GMC Great Laker MHC
> GMCGL Tech Editor
> GMC Eastern States Charter Member
> GMCMI
> 78 GMC Buskirk 29.5’ Stretch
> 75 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
> Michigan
>
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 2020, at 8:38 AM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
> >
> > If there is a downside to a double roller setup other than it costs a
> bit more, I'm not aware of it - Gurus?
> > The upsides are less wear on chain and sprockets so longer life, and as
> I understand it a bit less load. Either way I've always used the double
> > roller.
> >
> > --johnny
> > --
> > Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> > Braselton, Ga.
> > I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to
> me in hell
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
As stated before, the downside to a roller chain is the cost. If you are replacing the timing set on a high mileage engine, that will probably need
an overhaul/rebuild in 40 - 50,000 miles, you might just save the money and install a standard timing set since you will be replacing it well before
it wears out anyway.
--
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles,
Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
an overhaul/rebuild in 40 - 50,000 miles, you might just save the money and install a standard timing set since you will be replacing it well before
it wears out anyway.
--
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles,
Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
There is a double roller chain. Never a single for our GMC's. The original GM chain wasn't a roller chain at all. I'm drawing a blank on what's it's called. Matt, and Carol have good points. The problem with the original GM timing set. Is that the plastic on the cam gear is getting old/brittle. The double roller was developed for engines that run at high RPM's. And engines that have high valve spring pressures. That's it. There's no real value for our GMC's. I build a lot of various engines that have the chain/sprocket set up. Including our GMC's. Never install a roller. Except for the RPM's, and spring pleasure issue. Just because the double roller cost more. DOES NOT make them better for use in a GMC.
Bob Dunahugh
Bob Dunahugh
I have a Cloyes double roller in mine, From racing I wont ever use the stock single GM. I dont mind spending money on this coach as long as the
quality is better than stock and I dont have to go back and fix it.
--
1974 GMC Sequoia 26'
quality is better than stock and I dont have to go back and fix it.
--
1974 GMC Sequoia 26'
I have never seen a OEM Hy-Vo timing chain set that had been in service any
signifigant amount of time that was not worn enough to retard the camshaft
timing. They all wear. The same goes for the Cylent plastic coated set.
Except, the plastic stuff disintegrates and bad stuff happens when they do.
I will always spend a bit more and install the roller sets. You can
spend your money any way you choose.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020, 7:43 PM Grant Schaffer via Gmclist <
> I have a Cloyes double roller in mine, From racing I wont ever use the
> stock single GM. I dont mind spending money on this coach as long as the
> quality is better than stock and I dont have to go back and fix it.
> --
> 1974 GMC Sequoia 26'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
signifigant amount of time that was not worn enough to retard the camshaft
timing. They all wear. The same goes for the Cylent plastic coated set.
Except, the plastic stuff disintegrates and bad stuff happens when they do.
I will always spend a bit more and install the roller sets. You can
spend your money any way you choose.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020, 7:43 PM Grant Schaffer via Gmclist <
> I have a Cloyes double roller in mine, From racing I wont ever use the
> stock single GM. I dont mind spending money on this coach as long as the
> quality is better than stock and I dont have to go back and fix it.
> --
> 1974 GMC Sequoia 26'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
If my memory is correct. When I did my timing chain. Could not find a single roller chain anywhere to buy if I had wanted to. Think they were
listed, but no one had available.
--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
listed, but no one had available.
--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
Mr. John ain't in the business of putting plastic sprockets on anything. Since he normallt builds racing engines - heavy springs and a hell of a load
on the timing gears and chains, double rollers go in everything. I see no great downside to them, I ain't going to take it out of a new build anyway
--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
on the timing gears and chains, double rollers go in everything. I see no great downside to them, I ain't going to take it out of a new build anyway
--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
I have a quesstion about "CAM CHAINS" I understand there are at least 2 basic types, Hyvo chains
and roller chains. Simply what is the difference between a "single" roller chain and a "double"
roller chain, The pictures I think I see of chains I don't understand why some are called single
and some are called double. I would have guessed a "double" would have had 3 rows of plates.
HELP
--
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
and roller chains. Simply what is the difference between a "single" roller chain and a "double"
roller chain, The pictures I think I see of chains I don't understand why some are called single
and some are called double. I would have guessed a "double" would have had 3 rows of plates.
HELP
--
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> I have a quesstion about "CAM CHAINS" I understand there are at least 2 basic types, Hyvo chains and roller chains. Simply what is the difference
> between a "single" roller chain and a "double" roller chain, The pictures I think I see of chains I don't understand why some are called single and
> some are called double. I would have guessed a "double" would have had 3 rows of plates.
> Just checked again. found some pictures of "double" roller chains and they DO have 3 rows of plates.
> I guess I may have answered my own question. Am I correct ?
Dave,
Very cleverly, you did.
Single roller chains are pretty much OE or low budget rebuilds.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> between a "single" roller chain and a "double" roller chain, The pictures I think I see of chains I don't understand why some are called single and
> some are called double. I would have guessed a "double" would have had 3 rows of plates.
> Just checked again. found some pictures of "double" roller chains and they DO have 3 rows of plates.
> I guess I may have answered my own question. Am I correct ?
Dave,
Very cleverly, you did.
Single roller chains are pretty much OE or low budget rebuilds.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
I think I paid less than a hundred bucks for the Cloyes double-roller set,
when I changed them from stock on my previous set. That’s, what, $40 more
than the cheapest metal replacements? That’s down in the noise.
Rick “cheap insurance” Denney
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 3:55 PM Bob Dunahugh via Gmclist <
> There is a double roller chain. Never a single for our GMC's. The
> original GM chain wasn't a roller chain at all. I'm drawing a blank on
> what's it's called. Matt, and Carol have good points. The problem with the
> original GM timing set. Is that the plastic on the cam gear is getting
> old/brittle. The double roller was developed for engines that run at high
> RPM's. And engines that have high valve spring pressures. That's it.
> There's no real value for our GMC's. I build a lot of various engines that
> have the chain/sprocket set up. Including our GMC's. Never install a
> roller. Except for the RPM's, and spring pleasure issue. Just because the
> double roller cost more. DOES NOT make them better for use in a GMC.
> Bob Dunahugh
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
when I changed them from stock on my previous set. That’s, what, $40 more
than the cheapest metal replacements? That’s down in the noise.
Rick “cheap insurance” Denney
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 3:55 PM Bob Dunahugh via Gmclist <
> There is a double roller chain. Never a single for our GMC's. The
> original GM chain wasn't a roller chain at all. I'm drawing a blank on
> what's it's called. Matt, and Carol have good points. The problem with the
> original GM timing set. Is that the plastic on the cam gear is getting
> old/brittle. The double roller was developed for engines that run at high
> RPM's. And engines that have high valve spring pressures. That's it.
> There's no real value for our GMC's. I build a lot of various engines that
> have the chain/sprocket set up. Including our GMC's. Never install a
> roller. Except for the RPM's, and spring pleasure issue. Just because the
> double roller cost more. DOES NOT make them better for use in a GMC.
> Bob Dunahugh
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
